Jump to content


Photo

Would the Florida incident where the man shot and killed a man who pushed him down be legal in Illinois?


  • Please log in to reply
96 replies to this topic

#1 CHICAGO HANDGUN OWNER

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 465 posts
  • Joined: 16-June 08

Posted 21 July 2018 - 05:12 PM

I was wondering about legal opinions on whether the stand your ground fatal shooting incident that happened in Clearwater Florida would be legal here in Illinois? Is being violently pushed to the ground a forcible felony?

Here is the link:

https://nypost.com/2...-space-sheriff/



#2 drewd

  • Members
  • 6 posts
  • Joined: 17-July 18

Posted 21 July 2018 - 05:44 PM

im not entirely sure. But there are plenty of factors that can play into it, did he push you down and say im going to kill you? or are you handicapped and unable to defend yourself incase he started to fight you? It is hard because this man that shot him instigated a fight by going to argue about a parking spot, no he didn't start it but he absolutely could have avoided it. yes the man was younger then him and probably could easily over power him, and if he was handicapped probably cant defend himself by running away or fighting back and had to shoot. id say in Chicago he'd probably get arrested just because he didn't avoid the fight.



#3 Euler

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 909 posts
  • Joined: 26-February 18

Posted 21 July 2018 - 05:43 PM

The stand-your-ground law in FL is irrelevant. Stand-your-ground just means you're allowed to defend yourself if attacked. You're not required by law to run away.

The only question, whether you ask it in FL or IL, is if you can use lethal force against someone who shoved you for hassling his girlfriend.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.
- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.

#4 Dx54r

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 368 posts
  • Joined: 09-September 16

Posted 21 July 2018 - 05:51 PM

im not entirely sure. But there are plenty of factors that can play into it, did he push you down and say im going to kill you? or are you handicapped and unable to defend yourself incase he started to fight you? It is hard because this man that shot him instigated a fight by going to argue about a parking spot, no he didn't start it but he absolutely could have avoided it. yes the man was younger then him and probably could easily over power him, and if he was handicapped probably cant defend himself by running away or fighting back and had to shoot. id say in Chicago he'd probably get arrested just because he didn't avoid the fight.

 

Talking to someone's girlfriend is considered instigating a fight with the boyfriend? I don't buy that one bit.

 

Also, how was he supposed to avoid the fight? Tuck his tail between his legs and go about his life not interacting with society? You don't even see the girlfriend in the video because the guy was like standing at least 6 feet away talking. He wasn't walking around erratic making threatening gestures. He wasn't getting up in her face. Yet this violent scumlord of societies first instinct is to walk up to him and jack him in the face? That is supposed to be avoided somehow? A "confrontation" of words over a parking spot was escalated to violence by this scum, who in turn had their violence responded to with deadly force.


Edited by Dx54r, 21 July 2018 - 05:58 PM.


#5 spec5

    Nuclear Member

  • Members
  • 4,626 posts
  • Joined: 18-April 09

Posted 21 July 2018 - 06:43 PM

http://illinoiscarry...showtopic=69557
Discussion here.

Edited by spec5, 21 July 2018 - 06:44 PM.

NRA Member Life Member
ISRA Member
Illinois Carry
Pershing Nuclear Missile 56th Field Artillery Brigade Veteran
1/41 Field Artillary Germany

#6 Smallbore

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,505 posts
  • Joined: 17-December 07

Posted 21 July 2018 - 06:49 PM

I do not believe Florida's "stand your ground" is similar to Illinois' "affirmative defense".
True both state's attorneys have the burden of proof but doesn't Illinois case law give a big advantage to the Illinois states' attorney? The defendant does not want a miss trial.

#7 chislinger

    Member

  • Members
  • 6,153 posts
  • Joined: 21-November 13

Posted 21 July 2018 - 11:24 PM

The people who say Chicago would have charged him are completely unfamiliar with Chicago's history in these circumstances. Despite being rabidly anti-gun Chicago has a long history of giving wide latitude to self defense claims. Even when handguns were banned here. I'd be far more worried downstate than in Chicago, they have bigger fish to fry here.
"I'm not worried about following the U.S. Constitution." - Washington County, Alabama Judge Nick Williams

#8 mic6010

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,668 posts
  • Joined: 04-January 14

Posted 22 July 2018 - 07:28 AM

The people who say Chicago would have charged him are completely unfamiliar with Chicago's history in these circumstances. Despite being rabidly anti-gun Chicago has a long history of giving wide latitude to self defense claims. Even when handguns were banned here. I'd be far more worried downstate than in Chicago, they have bigger fish to fry here.

No way dude. You shoot a protected class in Chicago like that today you're going to trial. There's gonna be riots over it and everything. The leftists will make sure to make an example out of you to add to the "all white people are racist" narrative. The media and the community organizers will be all over TV talking about how evil you are.

I wouldn't like my odds at all.

 

That being said, that was a good shoot imo. He was outnumbered, attacked for no reason, incapacitated by the first blow and defended himself from getting pummeled on the ground.


Edited by mic6010, 22 July 2018 - 07:29 AM.

"Living in Chicago, it used to be, 'don't go out at night,' or 'be more careful at night'. Now it's turned into a place where it doesn't matter if it's day or night."  - John Hendricks.


#9 lockman

    Member

  • Members
  • 7,767 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 06

Posted 22 July 2018 - 08:27 AM

In Illinois, committing a battery to a person over 60 is an aggravating factor and can make an otherwise simple battery a felony or move an aggravated battery charge up 1 level. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

"We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1776

Life Member NRA, ISRA,  CCRKBA, GOA, & SAF


#10 chislinger

    Member

  • Members
  • 6,153 posts
  • Joined: 21-November 13

Posted 22 July 2018 - 08:37 AM

No way dude. You shoot a protected class in Chicago like that today you're going to trial. There's gonna be riots over it and everything. The leftists will make sure to make an example out of you to add to the "all white people are racist" narrative. The media and the community organizers will be all over TV talking about how evil you are.
I wouldn't like my odds at all.

If you really feel that way don't carry in Chicago, because it's very unlikely you'll have to defend yourself from a non-protected class.
"I'm not worried about following the U.S. Constitution." - Washington County, Alabama Judge Nick Williams

#11 sirflyguy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,735 posts
  • Joined: 28-September 09

Posted 22 July 2018 - 09:14 AM

The stand-your-ground law in FL is irrelevant. Stand-your-ground just means you're allowed to defend yourself if attacked. You're not required by law to run away.The only question, whether you ask it in FL or IL, is if you can use lethal force against someone who shoved you for hassling his girlfriend.

Actually, SYG merely takes away any requirement to try to retreat (Avoidance) if one can safely do so. It has nothing to do with whether you are allowed to defend yourself or not. The "victim" still must have the elements of Innocence, Imminence, Proportionality, and Reasonableness securely on his/her side.
Unfortunately, the media, along with many uninformed LEOs, lawyers, and political activists, have misrepresented (either maliciously or ignorantly) what SYG is and is not.

United States Concealed Carry Association Certified Firearms Instructor

Defensive Firearms Coach (DFC) 

Fundamentals of Home Defense Handgun

Fundamentals of Concealed Carry
NRA-Certified Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection In the Home Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection Outside the Home Instructor 
NRA-Certified Chief Range Safety Officer

IL FCCA Approved Instructor
http://www.mlftraining.com
https://www.facebook...ps/mlftraining/


#12 sirflyguy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,735 posts
  • Joined: 28-September 09

Posted 22 July 2018 - 09:15 AM

There are way too many unknowns to comment on whether this is a justified self-defense incident. What it was, however, was incredibly stupid.

United States Concealed Carry Association Certified Firearms Instructor

Defensive Firearms Coach (DFC) 

Fundamentals of Home Defense Handgun

Fundamentals of Concealed Carry
NRA-Certified Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection In the Home Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection Outside the Home Instructor 
NRA-Certified Chief Range Safety Officer

IL FCCA Approved Instructor
http://www.mlftraining.com
https://www.facebook...ps/mlftraining/


#13 Euler

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 909 posts
  • Joined: 26-February 18

Posted 22 July 2018 - 09:46 AM

In Illinois, committing a battery to a person over 60 is an aggravating factor and can make an otherwise simple battery a felony or move an aggravated battery charge up 1 level.


In this case, the shooter was 47.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.
- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.

#14 Euler

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 909 posts
  • Joined: 26-February 18

Posted 22 July 2018 - 10:03 AM

The stand-your-ground law in FL is irrelevant. Stand-your-ground just means you're allowed to defend yourself if attacked. You're not required by law to run away.The only question, whether you ask it in FL or IL, is if you can use lethal force against someone who shoved you for hassling his girlfriend.


Actually, SYG merely takes away any requirement to try to retreat (Avoidance) if one can safely do so. It has nothing to do with whether you are allowed to defend yourself or not....


Well, logically you have 3 options if you're attacked: run away, defend yourself (possibly non-lethally), and submit. Calling for help, while also an option, still means you're going to be doing one of the other three until it arrives. If the legal requirement to run away is removed and if there's no legal requirement (of which I'm aware) to do either of the other two, I'd say it's the choice of the defender which option to pick. Does the word "allowed" not apply semantically?
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.
- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.

#15 aka

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 1,023 posts
  • Joined: 29-August 13

Posted 22 July 2018 - 11:06 AM

The law is pretty clear that if YOU FEEL your life is in danger then you can use lethal force. It does not matter what others feel or see, what matters is that you reasonably believe that your life is in danger at that moment. 

 

Now that is what the law says. The problem is once you use lethal force, you have to defend it in front of a judge/jury and there feelings hardly matter, what matters are witnesses, videos and audio and if the prosecutor can convince the judge/jury that you were never in danger, well you are basically toast. 

 

In this case, had the shooter been black and the victim white, there would have been charges. My personal belief (which by the way does not matter here) is that the shooter committed a crime. There was no evidence that his life was in danger but I cannot feel what he felt at that moment so he gets the benefit of the doubt. 


Thank you

 

AKA

--------------------------------
IL CCW License Instructor
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA Member
Glock Armorer
 


#16 C0untZer0

    Contributing Member in Arrears

  • Members
  • 13,112 posts
  • Joined: 14-October 11

Posted 22 July 2018 - 12:48 PM

Your question is vague "whether the stand your ground fatal shooting incident that happened in Clearwater Florida would be legal here in Illinois?"

 

 

Florida's statutes are right here:

 

https://m.flsenate.g...tatutes/776.032

 

776.012 Use or threatened use of force in defense of person.

(1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.
(2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

 

 

 

 

 

776.032 (sometimes called the "Stand Your Ground" law) grants immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for a justified shooting.  If a shooter raises a self defense claim, the prosecutor must first overcome that claim "by clear and convincing evidence"

 

https://m.flsenate.g...tatutes/776.032

 

In Illinois, a shooter could be arrested and charged with murder or manslaughter, and then the defendant would have to prove that he was justified in the use of force, that he reasonably believed that such conduct was necessary to defend himself against imminent use of unlawful force and that he reasonably believed that such force was necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself.

 

http://www.ilga.gov/...&SeqEnd=9700000

 

Florida law enforcement agencies are prohibited from arresting someone who claims they were defending themselves unless they have probable cause that the force was unlawful.   Before Florida prosecutors can bring a homicide charge against someone making a self-defense claim, the prosecutor must first over come the self-defense claim in court procedings. 


“Most gun control arguments miss the point. If all control boils fundamentally to force, how can one resist aggression without equal force? How can a truly “free” state exist if the individual citizen is enslaved to the forceful will of individual or organized aggressors?
 
 It cannot.” 

 

― Tiffany Madison― 


#17 soundguy

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 5,503 posts
  • Joined: 27-February 05

Posted 22 July 2018 - 01:08 PM

 

The people who say Chicago would have charged him are completely unfamiliar with Chicago's history in these circumstances. Despite being rabidly anti-gun Chicago has a long history of giving wide latitude to self defense claims. Even when handguns were banned here. I'd be far more worried downstate than in Chicago, they have bigger fish to fry here.

No way dude. You shoot a protected class in Chicago like that today you're going to trial. There's gonna be riots over it and everything. The leftists will make sure to make an example out of you to add to the "all white people are racist" narrative. The media and the community organizers will be all over TV talking about how evil you are.

I wouldn't like my odds at all.

 

That being said, that was a good shoot imo. He was outnumbered, attacked for no reason, incapacitated by the first blow and defended himself from getting pummeled on the ground.

 

 

Chislinger is 100% correct. It's totally the Chicago way!


Life is a cooperative venture... That's what makes it work.

#18 Euler

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 909 posts
  • Joined: 26-February 18

Posted 22 July 2018 - 01:31 PM

https://m.flsenate.g...tatutes/776.032
...
Florida law enforcement agencies are prohibited from arresting someone who claims they were defending themselves unless they have probable cause that the force was unlawful. Before Florida prosecutors can bring a homicide charge against someone making a self-defense claim, the prosecutor must first over come the self-defense claim in court procedings.


776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use or threatened use of force.

(1) A person who uses or threatens to use force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in such conduct and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use or threatened use of such force by the person, personal representative, or heirs of the person against whom the force was used or threatened, unless the person against whom force was used or threatened is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using or threatening to use force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use or threatened use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using or threatening to use force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used or threatened was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

(4) In a criminal prosecution, once a prima facie claim of self-defense immunity from criminal prosecution has been raised by the defendant at a pretrial immunity hearing, the burden of proof by clear and convincing evidence is on the party seeking to overcome the immunity from criminal prosecution provided in subsection (1).


The Florida law says nothing about a prosecutor having to overcome a self-defense claim in court before an arrest. It says the cops can't arrest a person claiming self-defense unless they have probable cause. At trial, the prosecutor has to overcome the self-defense claim. While interesting, that's not what stand-your-ground is.

When a defendant (in any state) claims self-defense, there are two possibilities: either the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove it was self-defense or the burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove that it wasn't. In Florida, the burden of proof is on the prosecutor. For an example of a state switching from one to the other, there's the case of Harold Fish in Arizona. Fish was initially convicted because he couldn't (or didn't) prove that he killed his attacker in self-defense. He was later released. When the prosecutor re-filed charges, the law had changed, and the prosecutor was unable to prove it wasn't self-defense.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.
- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.

#19 mic6010

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,668 posts
  • Joined: 04-January 14

Posted 22 July 2018 - 01:32 PM

 

 

The people who say Chicago would have charged him are completely unfamiliar with Chicago's history in these circumstances. Despite being rabidly anti-gun Chicago has a long history of giving wide latitude to self defense claims. Even when handguns were banned here. I'd be far more worried downstate than in Chicago, they have bigger fish to fry here.

No way dude. You shoot a protected class in Chicago like that today you're going to trial. There's gonna be riots over it and everything. The leftists will make sure to make an example out of you to add to the "all white people are racist" narrative. The media and the community organizers will be all over TV talking about how evil you are.

I wouldn't like my odds at all.

 

That being said, that was a good shoot imo. He was outnumbered, attacked for no reason, incapacitated by the first blow and defended himself from getting pummeled on the ground.

 

 

Chislinger is 100% correct. It's totally the Chicago way!

 

What Chicago are you talking about ? They only protect the kings men. They don't give two poops about us common folk with CCL. That city is run by raving mad leftists. On the daily they try and demonize us for daring to carry firearms for protection.

In a similar situation you will be getting prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Don't live in a delusion. Kimberly Foxx is just waiting around to destroy your life.

 

All that being said, you gotta do what you gotta do to be safe.


Edited by mic6010, 22 July 2018 - 01:35 PM.

"Living in Chicago, it used to be, 'don't go out at night,' or 'be more careful at night'. Now it's turned into a place where it doesn't matter if it's day or night."  - John Hendricks.


#20 soundguy

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 5,503 posts
  • Joined: 27-February 05

Posted 22 July 2018 - 01:58 PM

chislinger:

 

The people who say Chicago would have charged him are completely unfamiliar with Chicago's history in these circumstances.

Soundguy:

 

Chislinger is 100% correct. It's totally the Chicago way!

 

 

What Chicago are you talking about ? They only protect the kings men. They don't give two poops about us common folk with CCL. That city is run by raving mad leftists. On the daily they try and demonize us for daring to carry firearms for protection.

In a similar situation you will be getting prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Don't live in a delusion.

 

All that being said, you gotta do what you gotta do to be safe.

 

Mic, do you live in Chicago?

I'm talking about the historical Chicago the way it's always been and continues to be.

 

Back in the '70s I misdirected myself into the wrong neighborhood. Squad car stopped to see WTH we were doing there and gave me directions. He then asked if we were carrying and said "ya should be".

 

Back around 2000 when there was a great deal of effort to get legal carry, when Fanny Pack Carry was in vogue, stories were collected about the consequences of SD with a gun in the 'City That Banned Guns'. In every single incident, the SD shooter faced no legal consequences other than having the illicit gun confiscated. One guy killed one of two young teens who were trying to rob him on his way to the bank. He was quoted in the Trib, "The cops can have that one. I got plenty more".

 

I'm also wondering if you read real news at all or watch any of the real news on TV. We have never been viewed in a better light than we are now... and it's getting better all the time.

 

Kingsmen??? Puhleeese!


Life is a cooperative venture... That's what makes it work.

#21 mic6010

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,668 posts
  • Joined: 04-January 14

Posted 22 July 2018 - 02:06 PM

Yeah we are just gonna agree to disagree on that one. Ever since herr Rohm got elected the city has changed and so has the policing of it. American society as a whole, as it related to self defense shootings, has changed.

All I'm saying is this is not an instance you ever want to find yourself in Cook County. Not ever...  It doesn't matter what historically has happen or what the facts are. As a white person who has a CCL you are the enemy to the leftists. They are waiting for this same case to happen here to make an example out of you. Even the in the local cops are cool with what you did, they don't make those calls. Don't underestimate the power of racism and self hating white leftists. 

This is not Florida. And even in Florida the states attorney can still take this case up.


Edited by mic6010, 22 July 2018 - 02:11 PM.

"Living in Chicago, it used to be, 'don't go out at night,' or 'be more careful at night'. Now it's turned into a place where it doesn't matter if it's day or night."  - John Hendricks.


#22 tkroenlein

    OFFICIAL MEMBER

  • Members
  • 8,724 posts
  • Joined: 12-January 13

Posted 22 July 2018 - 02:24 PM

Yeah we are just gonna agree to disagree on that one. Ever since herr Rohm got elected the city has changed and so has the policing of it. American society as a whole, as it related to self defense shootings, has changed.
All I'm saying is this is not an instance you ever want to find yourself in Cook County. Not ever...  It doesn't matter what historically has happen or what the facts are. As a white person who has a CCL you are the enemy to the leftists. They are waiting for this same case to happen here to make an example out of you. Even the in the local cops are cool with what you did, they don't make those calls. Don't underestimate the power of racism and self hating white leftists. 
This is not Florida. And even in Florida the states attorney can still take this case up.


Ya know, we watch these CC DGU’s pretty close here, and there has been no prevalence to arrest CCer’s in Chicago. And there have been some that didn’t appear too cut and dry.

It’s prudent to be aware of what can happen, but unnecessary to worry about something happening that is statistically unlikely.

#23 bmurph44

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 527 posts
  • Joined: 06-December 17

Posted 22 July 2018 - 02:24 PM

In Illinois, committing a battery to a person over 60 is an aggravating factor and can make an otherwise simple battery a felony or move an aggravated battery charge up 1 level.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The killer in this incident was 47 yrs old.

#24 spanishjames

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 2,780 posts
  • Joined: 09-February 12

Posted 22 July 2018 - 02:32 PM

There were at least a couple stories in the news about someone using a handgun in self defense, when they were outlawed, and weren't criminally charged.  Here's one example:

http://www.foxnews.c...me-invader.html


To disarm is to consent to slavery.


#25 mic6010

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,668 posts
  • Joined: 04-January 14

Posted 22 July 2018 - 02:55 PM

 

Yeah we are just gonna agree to disagree on that one. Ever since herr Rohm got elected the city has changed and so has the policing of it. American society as a whole, as it related to self defense shootings, has changed.
All I'm saying is this is not an instance you ever want to find yourself in Cook County. Not ever...  It doesn't matter what historically has happen or what the facts are. As a white person who has a CCL you are the enemy to the leftists. They are waiting for this same case to happen here to make an example out of you. Even the in the local cops are cool with what you did, they don't make those calls. Don't underestimate the power of racism and self hating white leftists. 
This is not Florida. And even in Florida the states attorney can still take this case up.


Ya know, we watch these CC DGU’s pretty close here, and there has been no prevalence to arrest CCer’s in Chicago. And there have been some that didn’t appear too cut and dry.

It’s prudent to be aware of what can happen, but unnecessary to worry about something happening that is statistically unlikely.

 

Yeah but if we based everything purely off the statistics then we wouldn't need to carry guns either. There wouldn't even be a debate in America about "common sense gun laws"

The chance of us ever being shot by another human or needing to use lethal force to defend ourselves is about the same as winning the lottery or getting struck by lightening.

Its really not even worth worrying about when you wake up in the morning.

 

But I do understand what you're saying though. And that's good to know. But I'm not taking anything for granted just the same.


"Living in Chicago, it used to be, 'don't go out at night,' or 'be more careful at night'. Now it's turned into a place where it doesn't matter if it's day or night."  - John Hendricks.


#26 bearwidnezz

  • Members
  • 24 posts
  • Joined: 21-January 14

Posted 22 July 2018 - 05:24 PM

Yeah we are just gonna agree to disagree on that one. Ever since herr Rohm got elected the city has changed and so has the policing of it. American society as a whole, as it related to self defense shootings, has changed.
All I'm saying is this is not an instance you ever want to find yourself in Cook County. Not ever...  It doesn't matter what historically has happen or what the facts are. As a white person who has a CCL you are the enemy to the leftists. They are waiting for this same case to happen here to make an example out of you. Even the in the local cops are cool with what you did, they don't make those calls. Don't underestimate the power of racism and self hating white leftists. 
This is not Florida. And even in Florida the states attorney can still take this case up.


Do you have any examples of white ccl holders getting shafted after a legit shoot?

#27 C0untZer0

    Contributing Member in Arrears

  • Members
  • 13,112 posts
  • Joined: 14-October 11

Posted 22 July 2018 - 08:09 PM

At trial, the prosecutor has to overcome the self-defense claim. While interesting, that's not what stand-your-ground is.

 

 

When I Google Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law newspaper articles often cite 776.032  but Wikipedia identifies 776.012 as Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, which says that 

 

https://m.flsenate.g...tatutes/776.012

 

A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

 

 


“Most gun control arguments miss the point. If all control boils fundamentally to force, how can one resist aggression without equal force? How can a truly “free” state exist if the individual citizen is enslaved to the forceful will of individual or organized aggressors?
 
 It cannot.” 

 

― Tiffany Madison― 


#28 2A4Cook

    Old and Cranky

  • Members
  • 3,141 posts
  • Joined: 17-April 14

Posted 22 July 2018 - 08:15 PM

Yeah we are just gonna agree to disagree on that one. Ever since herr Rohm got elected the city has changed and so has the policing of it. American society as a whole, as it related to self defense shootings, has changed.
All I'm saying is this is not an instance you ever want to find yourself in Cook County. Not ever...  It doesn't matter what historically has happen or what the facts are. As a white person who has a CCL you are the enemy to the leftists. They are waiting for this same case to happen here to make an example out of you. Even the in the local cops are cool with what you did, they don't make those calls. Don't underestimate the power of racism and self hating white leftists. 
This is not Florida. And even in Florida the states attorney can still take this case up.


Do you have any examples of white ccl holders getting shafted after a legit shoot?

Read USCCA's "Concealed Carry" magazine. It happens. A lot. Even if you're exonerated, your life is ruined.

#29 sirflyguy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,735 posts
  • Joined: 28-September 09

Posted 22 July 2018 - 10:38 PM

The law is pretty clear that if YOU FEEL your life is in danger then you can use lethal force. It does not matter what others feel or see, what matters is that you reasonably believe that your life is in danger at that moment. 
 
Now that is what the law says. The problem is once you use lethal force, you have to defend it in front of a judge/jury and there feelings hardly matter, what matters are witnesses, videos and audio and if the prosecutor can convince the judge/jury that you were never in danger, well you are basically toast. 
 
In this case, had the shooter been black and the victim white, there would have been charges. My personal belief (which by the way does not matter here) is that the shooter committed a crime. There was no evidence that his life was in danger but I cannot feel what he felt at that moment so he gets the benefit of the doubt.

That of which you speak he believed is Subjective Reasonableness. You still have to convince a jury of the reasonableness: that is Objective Reasonableness.

United States Concealed Carry Association Certified Firearms Instructor

Defensive Firearms Coach (DFC) 

Fundamentals of Home Defense Handgun

Fundamentals of Concealed Carry
NRA-Certified Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection In the Home Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection Outside the Home Instructor 
NRA-Certified Chief Range Safety Officer

IL FCCA Approved Instructor
http://www.mlftraining.com
https://www.facebook...ps/mlftraining/


#30 Tango7

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,828 posts
  • Joined: 06-November 08

Posted 23 July 2018 - 07:39 PM

There were at least a couple stories in the news about someone using a handgun in self defense, when they were outlawed, and weren't criminally charged.  Here's one example:
http://www.foxnews.c...me-invader.html


I recall a story from many years ago about a WWII vet being hassled by a local thug, and after several months got tired of having his social security / pension check taken through threat of force. The actual story was much briefer, but I visualize it thusly:

On this particular mail day, tired of being reduce to living on pocket change, I imagine he went to his closet, where a faded green uniform still hung, and took an old cardboard box down from a shelf. Opening the battered box, he unwrapped a chunk of machined metal, that had last been used to kill Nazis many decades earlier.

Making it ready he tucked it into his waistband and went downstairs to the lobby of the building.

As he went to open his mailbox, there was the honor roll student, just as he'd appeared before, demanding "his" money. If only he'd been so prompt for a day job. Unlike the times before, this time the vet said no.

The choirboy threatened the vet, and fearing for his life the vet produced the relic. The ammo - possibly fresh from it's cardboard box imprinted "50 CARTRIDGES, PISTOL, BALL, CALIBER .45, M1911" - worked as well as it's lot mates had in 1944, and a lack of practice did not prevent the veteran's training and experience from overcoming his age and frailty.

In the end the vet survived, and the young man's life "turned around" for the last time.

The only charge the vet faced and pled guilty to? Possession of an unregistered handgun.

I hope the confiscated pistol fell into a duffel bag or lunch box instead of the smelting vat.

Edited by Tango7, 23 July 2018 - 07:42 PM.

You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users