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3hr Renewal Discrepancy?


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#61 stm

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 11:47 AM


 

I would be willing to bet there will be an objection period for renewals.
 
To play devil's advocate for a minute, just because there is no arrest, charges or mental health admissions found from the daily checks of the ISP, doesn't mean the local law enforcement agency hasn't had any contacts or run-in's where they would want to object.  There very well have been contacts, but remember.....the objections "should" only be based on if the person is a harm to themselves, or others.  That definition is subject to interpretation depending on the agency and the agency must submit documentation.  Either way, it's understood that once an objection is filed, the applicant is in for a rough ride.


The language in the law is clear and not open to interpretation. There's an objection period in the law for first time applicants, not for renewals. Contact with law enforcement is not a disqualifier. They need to provide proof and documentation that someone is a threat to himself or others.
 


I agree with you to the point that contact with law enforcement isn't an automatic disqualifier and documentation is needed, as I have clearly mentioned above.  However, I haven't found in the law where it mentions an objection period would not be required for renewals.  

And there was nothing in the law that said ISP COULDN'T require everyone to shoot 21/30 rounds inside the 7-ring of the B-27 target, either.

Or that they couldn't require instructors to teach things NOT REQUIRED by JCAR for renewal classes.

ISP has a habit of making things more difficult on us poor civilians than is required. Thankfully we have people like Molly B around to keep them in line!

(No disrespect intended, Craig. I am a fan.)

Edited by stm, 09 August 2018 - 11:49 AM.

yea everyone makes fun of the redneck till the zombies show up. . .


#62 Craigcelia

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 12:15 PM

 

 

I would be willing to bet there will be an objection period for renewals.
 
To play devil's advocate for a minute, just because there is no arrest, charges or mental health admissions found from the daily checks of the ISP, doesn't mean the local law enforcement agency hasn't had any contacts or run-in's where they would want to object.  There very well have been contacts, but remember.....the objections "should" only be based on if the person is a harm to themselves, or others.  That definition is subject to interpretation depending on the agency and the agency must submit documentation.  Either way, it's understood that once an objection is filed, the applicant is in for a rough ride.


The language in the law is clear and not open to interpretation. There's an objection period in the law for first time applicants, not for renewals. Contact with law enforcement is not a disqualifier. They need to provide proof and documentation that someone is a threat to himself or others.
 


I agree with you to the point that contact with law enforcement isn't an automatic disqualifier and documentation is needed, as I have clearly mentioned above.  However, I haven't found in the law where it mentions an objection period would not be required for renewals.  

And there was nothing in the law that said ISP COULDN'T require everyone to shoot 21/30 rounds inside the 7-ring of the B-27 target, either.

Or that they couldn't require instructors to teach things NOT REQUIRED by JCAR for renewal classes.

ISP has a habit of making things more difficult on us poor civilians than is required. Thankfully we have people like Molly B around to keep them in line!

(No disrespect intended, Craig. I am a fan.)

 

None taken.  I couldn't agree more.  We see just from the renewals JCAR and ISP have different thoughts on what should be taught.  



#63 Mr. Fife

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 01:11 PM

I hope they figure it all out now, rather than not having a plan in place once the renewals start.
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#64 357

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 03:50 PM

I would be willing to bet there will be an objection period for renewals.
 
To play devil's advocate for a minute, just because there is no arrest, charges or mental health admissions found from the daily checks of the ISP, doesn't mean the local law enforcement agency hasn't had any contacts or run-in's where they would want to object.  There very well have been contacts, but remember.....the objections "should" only be based on if the person is a harm to themselves, or others.  That definition is subject to interpretation depending on the agency and the agency must submit documentation.  Either way, it's understood that once an objection is filed, the applicant is in for a rough ride.


The language in the law is clear and not open to interpretation. There's an objection period in the law for first time applicants, not for renewals. Contact with law enforcement is not a disqualifier. They need to provide proof and documentation that someone is a threat to himself or others.
I agree with you to the point that contact with law enforcement isn't an automatic disqualifier and documentation is needed, as I have clearly mentioned above.  However, I haven't found in the law where it mentions an objection period would not be required for renewals.

If people who wrote the law wanted to have an objection period for renewals,they would have written it in the law, like they did for first time applicants. Plus it doesn't make sense to have law enforcement object for people who already have a license. Does any other state do that? If they did something wrong their license would have been revoked and it doesn't take much in Illinois and licenses have been revoked even for traffic violations. We should be united in the defense of the 2nd amendment and people's rights.
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#65 jazzemt

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 08:39 PM

We had a lengthy and very productive meeting with the  ISP Firearm Services Bureau Chief, ISP Chief Legal Counsel, and the Legislative Liaison.

 

In regards to the 3-hr. renewal course, we are to cover:

 

A)        any updates to Illinois or federal firearms laws governing concealed carry in Illinois; ownership, storage, carry, transport

 

B]        updates in the Criminal Code Sections listed in Section 1231.10; and

 

C)        appropriate and lawful interaction with law enforcement while transporting or carrying a concealed firearm;

 

D)        Any updates to the FOID Act.

 

E)        prohibited places and parking lot exception

 

F)       Use of Force Statutes - person, dwelling, property - with definitions of dwelling, aggressor, forcible felony, and UUW

 

2)         One hour of instruction to include:

 

            A) Review handgun fundamentals

            B]  Review handgun concealment

            C)  a live fire qualification with a concealable firearm using a B-27 silhouette target consisting of a minimum of 30 rounds and 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards, 10 rounds from a distance of 7 yards and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards.

Is ISP planning on correcting the certificates to reflect what they are now looking for?



#66 Molly B.

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 09:08 PM

We made that request.
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#67 stevem4134

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 06:09 AM

I took the 3 Hour renewal class earlier this month. Will I need to get a new certificate?



#68 Craigcelia

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 06:28 AM

I took the 3 Hour renewal class earlier this month. Will I need to get a new certificate?


Your instructor should have provided one.

#69 stevem4134

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 11:06 AM

I guess my question is how can I tell that the certificate that was issued for the renewal class that I took earlier this month is the correct one that will be accepted by the state police

#70 THE KING

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 11:15 AM

The ISP has only issued us instructors one new 3 hour Renewal Certificate and one new 16 hour Certificate.  So if you have this certificate, then it's the only one out there.



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#71 stevem4134

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 11:26 AM

Thanks

#72 GWBH

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 01:49 PM

 

 

I would be willing to bet there will be an objection period for renewals.
 
To play devil's advocate for a minute, just because there is no arrest, charges or mental health admissions found from the daily checks of the ISP, doesn't mean the local law enforcement agency hasn't had any contacts or run-in's where they would want to object.  There very well have been contacts, but remember.....the objections "should" only be based on if the person is a harm to themselves, or others.  That definition is subject to interpretation depending on the agency and the agency must submit documentation.  Either way, it's understood that once an objection is filed, the applicant is in for a rough ride.


The language in the law is clear and not open to interpretation. There's an objection period in the law for first time applicants, not for renewals. Contact with law enforcement is not a disqualifier. They need to provide proof and documentation that someone is a threat to himself or others.
 


I agree with you to the point that contact with law enforcement isn't an automatic disqualifier and documentation is needed, as I have clearly mentioned above.  However, I haven't found in the law where it mentions an objection period would not be required for renewals.  

And there was nothing in the law that said ISP COULDN'T require everyone to shoot 21/30 rounds inside the 7-ring of the B-27 target, either.

Or that they couldn't require instructors to teach things NOT REQUIRED by JCAR for renewal classes.

ISP has a habit of making things more difficult on us poor civilians than is required. Thankfully we have people like Molly B around to keep them in line!

(No disrespect intended, Craig. I am a fan.)

 

Just a point of clarification...

All LE are also civilians - they are civil servants - they are NOT the military.

This is a real "sticky" for me so please excuse my demeanor...

Back to the OP...


Edited by GWBH, 16 August 2018 - 01:50 PM.

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#73 stm

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 02:09 PM

I did not say that ISP employees were not civilians. In fact, not all of them are sworn law enforcement officers. But they sure do make it more difficult for us than is required. This could be called a "pattern of behavior" by a plaintiff's lawyer.

yea everyone makes fun of the redneck till the zombies show up. . .


#74 mrmagloo

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 02:16 PM

So, I'm trying to follow this, but has a 3 hour curriculum even been approved and distributed to the registered instructors yet?  I mean, if these guys are suggesting that people submit the renewals 5 months in advance, that means for those in the first batch that got their CCL issues in Feb, that means we are supposed to be sending in the renewals by the middle of Sept?

 

Seems pretty absurd that only a week ago, Molly is still ferreting out details?  How can some of the instructors already be offering the 3 hour course that's still being defined?  I don't get it??



#75 Molly B.

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 02:22 PM

So, I'm trying to follow this, but has a 3 hour curriculum even been approved and distributed to the registered instructors yet?  I mean, if these guys are suggesting that people submit the renewals 5 months in advance, that means for those in the first batch that got their CCL issues in Feb, that means we are supposed to be sending in the renewals by the middle of Sept?

 

Seems pretty absurd that only a week ago, Molly is still ferreting out details?  How can some of the instructors already be offering the 3 hour course that's still being defined?  I don't get it??

 

 

ISP is not going to distribute a curriculum to instructors.  They have posted the info that must be covered,it's listed in the JCAR rules and regulations.  If the curriculum you are using has already been approved for the 3 hr. course, you just make sure the required info is covered and meets the time requirements.


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#76 John Q Public

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 01:07 PM

Until I see an updated cert, I am going to teach what is on the current cert. I do trust Molly, but I have less faith in others.  :fear:  Until then, my "3hr" is more like 6hr. Please keep after them to get us a new one, as I don't want to get in Dutch if one hand doesn't know what the other is doing or saying.

 

 

So, I'm trying to follow this, but has a 3 hour curriculum even been approved and distributed to the registered instructors yet?  I mean, if these guys are suggesting that people submit the renewals 5 months in advance, that means for those in the first batch that got their CCL issues in Feb, that means we are supposed to be sending in the renewals by the middle of Sept?

 

Seems pretty absurd that only a week ago, Molly is still ferreting out details?  How can some of the instructors already be offering the 3 hour course that's still being defined?  I don't get it??

 

 

ISP is not going to distribute a curriculum to instructors.  They have posted the info that must be covered,it's listed in the JCAR rules and regulations.  If the curriculum you are using has already been approved for the 3 hr. course, you just make sure the required info is covered and meets the time requirements.

 


Edited by John Q Public, 03 September 2018 - 01:08 PM.





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