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"Flash" mobs in downtown Chicago

vito

By vito
in Illinois Right to Keep and Carry

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chicagoresident Member

chicagoresident

Posted
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RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

 

Know what it is, what is in line with it, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything you have not positively identified. Be aware of your surroundings, whether on the range or in a fight. Do not assume anything. Know what you are doing.

Even if your life is in danger armed self defense does not give you the right to shoot a non threat.

 

If you discharge into a mob and hit someone that is not a direct threat you will be charged.

 

If another armed conceal carrier or police officer is at the scene they are within their rights to shoot you.

 

If you discharge a magazine into a mob and not at an individual direct threat/threats you will be portrayed as a mass shooter that killed people at a peaceful protest and charged accordingly.

 

So yes, your life must be 100% at risk and you've exhausted every other option to remove yourself from the situation before using force against a mob.

 

Just ask any number of people who have been arrested either brandishing or running over mob swarms.

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soylentgreen Member

soylentgreen

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I'll go with a lower threshold, like a very reasonable fear that my life, or my family's, is in immediate grave danger.

 

 

 

Guys, the law only requires that you have a "reasonable" fear of death OR "great bodily harm" for you to respond with deadly force. You don't have to wait until someone plunges a knife into your neck. Come on.

 

The law also authorizes the use of deadly force against persons committing any forcible felony, which includes...

 

"treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual."

 

I don't usually like to say what I'd do in one situation or another. But, I'm 100% certain I would have a "REASONABLE" fear for my life if I was in my vehicle...stopped in traffic and unable to escape...and people were stomping on my vehicle or shaking it screaming "Kill all [insert my racial or ethnic group here]!!!!!" Tell me how I'm wrong. Even with a gun, there's a good chance I'm going to get hurt of killed. Ever see cars flipped over? Ever try to extract yourself from an upsidedown vehicle...while a mob is waiting for you to come out so they can do God-knows-what to you?

 

People saying you will "lose" if you're provoked to action by those who aim to put fear for your life in you...? I don't get that. How do I "lose" if I have a reasonable fear that you're going to seriously harm me and I send you to the hospital or worse (with my fists, a knife, or a gun)? My kids need a father more than they need the money I'd spend in court defending myself for a totally reasonable act. If people want to play with fire, the blood is on their hands. I just want to go about my daily business without being molested with threats of violence.

 

I will say this right now. If I sat on a jury and a legally armed citizen got caught up in an uncontrollable violent mob through no fault of his own and he/she sat on the stand and said they feared for their life, there is no way in heck I'd vote to convict them in ten thousand years...because I can understand what they felt in that moment.

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gangrel Member

gangrel

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RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Know what it is, what is in line with it, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything you have not positively identified. Be aware of your surroundings, whether on the range or in a fight. Do not assume anything. Know what you are doing.Even if your life is in danger armed self defense does not give you the right to shoot a non threat.

If you discharge into a mob and hit someone that is not a direct threat you will be charged.

If another armed conceal carrier or police officer is at the scene they are within their rights to shoot you.

If you discharge a magazine into a mob and not at an individual direct threat/threats you will be portrayed as a mass shooter that killed people at a peaceful protest and charged accordingly.

So yes, your life must be 100% at risk and you've exhausted every other option to remove yourself from the situation before using force against a mob.

Just ask any number of people who have been arrested either brandishing or running over mob swarms.

I agree with you 100% that rule #4 (always be aware of your target, your backstop, and what lies beyond) applies even (especially) in a self-defense situation. We own every bullet we fire, and whatever it does. This is the biggest disadvantage we have against an armed assailant. The criminal doesn't care where his bullets go.

 

That said, if you wait until you are GOING to be killed, you have waited too long to alter the outcome. And while I agree that retreating is a better option, the law does not REQUIRE it. You can use deadly force to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm. This is an honest call on your part. Can you honestly say you were in fear for your life? If a biker is sitting on your hood? Probably not. If a flash mobbed is jumping on the roof of your car wielding a tire iron? Well, that sounds like a different story to me...but to say that you need to wait until the hoodrat is actually swinging the tire iron at your head is....misguided.

 

Still, firing indiscriminately into a crowd is not an option. But these things happen at contact distance. Be sure you know who you're shooting and why, and are able to articulate that to your LAWYER once he arrives.

 

The guy that drew on the critical mass riders did not have a FOID (out of state, perhaps?), and he put the car in park and went to the trunk to retrieve his gun. Do these actions scream "I WAS IN FEAR FOR MY LIFE!!!!" to you? Me either. Probably the same for the cops who witnessed it, thus the bracelets and the trip to the pokey. Very different story if a street urchin is jumping on your hood brandishing some form of blunt object, and you draw from hip and act as needed.

 

As for getting arrested for shooting a protected class, where are you guys hearing these stories? I have seen a few, but the vast majority I have seen (Yes, even in Chicago) end with "the shooter appears to have acted in self-defense. Police say no charges have been filed at this time."

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

 

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jrc905 Member

jrc905

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I think if anything, all this calls to mind what Branca teaches with regard to responding to less than lethal threats. If all you have is a firearm; that's all you can respond with. If a couple sh&%heads (to use the SCC vernacular) block your path on the sidewalk/jump on your car when you're not blocked in* and you light them up - kiss goodbye the elements of "Proportionality" and possibly "Avoidance" and/or "Reasonableness" and thus a claim of self defense.

 

{*Have no doubt Li'l Kim Foxx will pull the footage from every security cam in the area to show that you had the ability to walk/drive away. }

 

And this is why I have pepper spray/gel...

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vito Member

vito

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One positive outcome of this whole event is that my wife has previously thought me paranoid for wanting to avoid going into Chicago, even when I am armed. She has always said that while parts of the city are clearly dangerous, the places we go like the museums and the shopping on Michigan Avenue are always safe. I made her read some of what is coming out about this "flash" mob and now she is grudgingly accepting that maybe we need to head to Milwaukee for shopping rather than to Chicago.

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Euler Member

Euler

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News of the Lake Shore Drive case came early Thursday in a comment [Alderman Brian] Hopkins submitted to [the Second City Cop blog]. Hopkins wrote, "... His distraught parents contacted my office today, because their repeated 911 calls failed to generate an investigatory response of any kind."

When seconds count, the police are just minutes days away.

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jim123 Member

jim123

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News of the Lake Shore Drive case came early Thursday in a comment [Alderman Brian] Hopkins submitted to [the Second City Cop blog]. Hopkins wrote, "... His distraught parents contacted my office today, because their repeated 911 calls failed to generate an investigatory response of any kind."

When seconds count, the police are just minutes days away.

 

Sometimes they really are hours away. It's more often than you would think.

http://www.cwbchicago.com/p/depleted-times-our-district-ran-out-of.html

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WitchDoctor Member

WitchDoctor

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I haven't set foot in that city or county since 2004, and plan to never go there again.

You are lucky. I have to cross into Crook County daily. I feel like I’m being raped every second I’m there

 

Only Raped? I live in the city and when the tax bill comes there is a whole other sensation that should only come from Mrs. WitchDoctor.

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NRApistol Member

NRApistol

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What are you going to do when you pull your gun and one of them says to you, What are you going to do? Shoot me?

Don't pull your gun to threaten. If he sees your gun and has time to say all that, maybe you should have left your gun in the holster.

 

Nonsense. You use your gun to stop the threat. If displaying the gun stops the threat mission accomplished.

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WitchDoctor Member

WitchDoctor

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Posted

 

 

What are you going to do when you pull your gun and one of them says to you, What are you going to do? Shoot me?

Don't pull your gun to threaten. If he sees your gun and has time to say all that, maybe you should have left your gun in the holster.

 

Nonsense. You use your gun to stop the threat. If displaying the gun stops the threat mission accomplished.

 

If I need to pull it, it is because I am going to use it. If you have time to do all that you have time to escape.

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NRApistol Member

NRApistol

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Let me get you guys right. Bad guy displays knife and demands you give him your wallet, You fan your cover garment aside and reach for your gun, as you draw the bad guy sees the gun and drops the knife and throws his hands up AS YOU ARE DRAWING THE THREAT STOPS. Do you still shoot him just because "If I need to pull it, it is because I am going to use it." You need better training. Take a REAL holster class, try NRA Defensive Pistol or Personal Protection Outside the Home.

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quackersmacker Member

quackersmacker

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Let me get you guys right. Bad guy displays knife and demands you give him your wallet, You fan your cover garment aside and reach for your gun, as you draw the bad guy sees the gun and drops the knife and throws his hands up AS YOU ARE DRAWING THE THREAT STOPS. Do you still shoot him just because "If I need to pull it, it is because I am going to use it." You need better training. Take a REAL holster class, try NRA Defensive Pistol or Personal Protection Outside the Home.

BINGO!

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