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wishbone

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  1. Getting back to the issue of carrying on a public right of way here is what the large law firm Holland and Knight had to say about it. Note the example of carrying in a park. "Holland & Knight Illinois Government and Municipal Practice Prohibited Areas and Employment Implications Under Illinois' New Concealed Carry Act November 25, 2013 By Andrew N. Fiske Mark E. Burkland Conceal Carrying Through a Prohibited Area Although a licensee cannot carry a concealed firearm in a Prohibited Area, the new law allows a licensee to carry a concealed firearm through a Prohibited Area so long as the licensee is traveling along a public right-of-way. For example, a licensee may carry a concealed firearm when walking on a public sidewalk that goes through a park or past a school, so long as the licensee is "traveling" and does not veer off the sidewalk."
  2. "But the public right-of-way on that land (the street & sidewalk) is not prohibited." So your point is "the street & sidewalk" has to be owned by the public. Does that mean you can carry on a public sidewalk that goes through a Cook County Forest Preserve (a prohibited area)?
  3. "Missed that it was an outdoor mall. Same principle though. Can you go there when it's closed?" Who said anything about going to an outdoor mall when it is closed? I would like someone to tell me exactly what they think Section 65 c which mentions an exemption to Section 65 (a-10) (which itself relates to private property) means. It either gives some kind of exemption or it doesn't. Reading a lot of the comments here gives the impression that it has no meaning at all. I don't believe that.
  4. The law says "touches or crosses any of the premises" including private property. I read crosses to mean more than just running along the property line. Crosses means crosses.
  5. That's exactly what I am arguing. Read Section 65 c of the FCCA, it specifically mentions "any of the premises under subsection (a), (a-5), or (a-10) of this Section" . The premises under (a-10) covers private property that is posted by its owners. If that private property is crossed by a sidewalk or path that the owner has routinely allowed the public to use it is a public right of way. Thus Section 65 c gives us a right of passage as long as we are "traveling along" ie: moving. IMHO this section was included to keep a licensee from becoming trapped by a large prohibited area say Northwestern University, and not being able to proceed to a destination which is not a prohibited area, thus it provides an exemption for safe passage. I am not arguing that it permits a licensee to enter any posted building or other prohibited area, only to travel where the public has always had the ability to travel. This has been a good discussion, and we can all agree that the courts will ultimately decide the issue. I am hopeful and pretty confident that my interpretation is correct because it allows us considerable freedom of travel while armed.
  6. "I think you're confusing permission with right. Private property that is open to the public, is open by permission of the owner. You don't have a legal right to be there. You can be banned from a campus. You can't be banned from a public right-of-way. Rights-of-way mean streets and roads, generally. Trust me, the courts know what a right-of-way is and it ain't the mall." Right of Way = "The legal right, established by usage or grant, to pass along a specific route through grounds or property belonging to another." Property "belonging to another" sure sounds like private property to me. An outdoor mall grants the public general access thus creating a public right of way "by usage or grant". They have a right to deny that access, but then, of course, no one could get to their stores. Remember this "right of passage" section of the law specifically applies to prohibited areas even those that are posted. .
  7. Why use that definition? For definition of "public right of way" --> What does Federal Law say? Or a Federal regulation? Or a Federal Court/SCOTUS ruling? I wonder what the Americans with Disabilities Act say or the regulations for it say.... If any of those support your definition, then you've got something. Anything else, and state law rules the roost. Why not use that definition? I don't understand why you would use Federal law or a Federal regulation when, as you point out, it is a State of Illinois law we are talking about. The FCCA states: "c- A licensee shall not be in violation of this Section while he or she is traveling along a public right of way that touches or crosses any of the premises under subsection (a), (a-5), or (a-10) of this Section if the concealed firearm is carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions of this Act or is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law." Nowhere in the FCCA is "public right of way" defined, so until the Illinois courts rule one way or the other, I think the common plain english use of the phrase makes sense, and would provide a strong defense against any prosecution of a misdemeanor charge. Why use a definition that is not in the FCCA to restrict our rights?
  8. The outdoor areas of forest preserves (other than Cook County) are not prohibited areas. Period. So the answer to your question is yes. Only private entities can create GFZ's by posting places that are not on the list of prohibited areas.
  9. "Unfortunately I agree with your assumption. The entire lake front is a park and therefore is a prohibited place. Pretty ridiculous to me given the number of stories you hear every year regarding people getting attacked along the lake front." You can carry on the lakefront bike path because it is part of a system that extends north and south beyond the boundaries of a single lakefront park. Also without reopening the the public right of way debate it is pretty clear (to me at least) that the lakefront is crisscrossed with public right of ways that you can legally travel along while carrying. Entry into any building is prohibited of course. Porta potties are interesting because most are privately owned, and only rented to the park district, and therefore should not be prohibited unless individually posted by the private owner.
  10. Part 65 c says: ... if the concealed firearm is carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions of this Act OR is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law.[/size] The OR suggests that it is not limited to just driving as you believe. I agree that the public right of way exception is a major feature of the Act and that it will be tested in the courts.[/size] I interpret the "or" clause to mean that the gun can still be transported in the car while concealed or in accordance with the old law. I acknowledge that there problems with that interpretation. I have not dissected the law word by word and comma by comma, etc. But I promise you that the legislature didn't either. You're not going to convince me that your interpretation is correct. Sorry. Until the courts or the legislature clarify what this means, we'll just need to agree to disagree on this point. I am with you Falstaff. We (and law enforcement officials) did not understand the implications of cased and unloaded FOIA transport until the courts made a couple of significant rulings and expanded our understanding. Lets let it rest there.
  11. Part 65 c says: ... if the concealed firearm is carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions of this Act OR is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law. The OR suggests that it is not limited to just driving as you believe. I agree that the public right of way exception is a major feature of the Act and that it will be tested in the courts.
  12. Best of luck with that interpretation... And your "interpretation" of Section 65 c is what pray tell?
  13. Here is the Oxford Dictionary definition of "right of way": "Definition of right of way in English: right of way Syllabification: right of way Pronunciation: NOUN 1The legal right, established by usage or grant, to pass along a specific route through grounds or property belonging to another." I like the idea of using the common plain English definition of right of way that gives us the maximum freedom the legislature gave to us to carry legally . Northwestern University allows the public to walk across their campus. Right of way = legal carry. The Oakbrook Mall allows the public the right of way to walk outdoors through their mall, and that equals legal carry. Section 65 c allows you to walk on any right of way that "touches or crosses" a prohibited area. It is one of the most powerful tools we have for free movement while carrying. Let's not talk ourselves out of that freedom.
  14. Ooh. Be careful with this: "public right of way" is generally used in reference to roads and highways. Given the typical Chicago politician/police officer/Cook County Sheriff's views on this subject, I would be afraid of becoming a test case. A lot of the definitions of "public right of way" that I find on the internet include the term "path" and since Section 65 c references "a concealed firearm carried on his or her person" as well as in a vehicle it seems to contemplate walking as well as driving. Most of us don't walk on a road or highway so side walks and paths that cross prohibited areas must be included.
  15. i think a lot of people are forgetting about Section 65 c : [c] A licensee shall not be in violation of this Section while he or she is traveling along a public right of way that touches or crosses any of the premises under subsection (a), (a-5), or (a-10) of this Section if the concealed firearm is carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions of this Act or is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law. Almost all of the Lakefront Park consists of public right of way. I think that as long as you are walking along, and not entering into a building you are legal.
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