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Another instructor skirting the system


Best Answer soundguy , 22 January 2018 - 09:44 PM

 

I could have taken the eight hour version, but wanted to learn all I could. The first day was gun safety, how to handle, etc.  We did touch on some laws, but the law stuff came down heavy on Sunday and I am glad I had the instructor at Maxons I did have.

Those that skirt the rules knowingly deserve to have their CCL revoked until they can prove they have taken the course by a certified CCL instructor

 

More time spent on the law, particularly the "when & when NOT" aspects would be preferable to me.  Basic gun handling should be limited to novice gun owners and those who actually want a "refresher course".  If an instructor spends 2-3 minutes with each person, then another 10-15 with the group, he should have a good idea of who needs the additional training.  Have a subordinate take those aside for retraining, let the proficient and safety-concious students to move ahead for a more detailed grounding in the law.

If I could find somebody that does a 12 hour class, I would probably take it.  My hunter safety cert lets me bypass 4 hours but nobody is doing 12 hours in this area.

 

 

It gives you 4hrs credit. NRA Basic Pistol gives you 8hrs credit.

 

I'm guessing no one offers a discount for 12 because you're still gonna be there for two days of class. If only you had 8hrs credit...

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#31 Mr. Fife

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 09:31 AM

You only have to do the 16 hours once. One good thing about it is that it meets or exceeds other states training requirements, and that's probably one reason the IL permit is recognized in so many states as compared to some other states permits.

On the other hand, it is overkill if you consider some states have no training requirements, and the streets are not flowing with rivers of blood.
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#32 papa

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:04 AM

“Skirting the law” or not aside, 16 hrs of instruction is not intended to educate or train, its to make it difficult for people to get a permit plain and simple. There’s nothing in that 16hrs you can’t cover in 4, unless you count an instructor’s stories about their time in the service. It seems like some students are mistaking that 16 hrs for a robust education in the law or consider it training. It ain’t. You leave an IL carry class with no greater skill or knowledge after that 16 hrs than an online course. Having taken carry courses in MN, MA and IL I can tell you that’s the case.But I’m probably preaching to the choir. My question: How do we go about getting rid of the 16hr requirement? And let’s abolish FOID, expand legal places to carry, reduce the $150 fee while we are at it.

 

As soon as Mike Madagan is out of office we might be able to advance those items.  As long as he is sitting at the head of the table we have a very rough road to travel.



#33 connsolo

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:45 AM

“Skirting the law” or not aside, 16 hrs of instruction is not intended to educate or train, its to make it difficult for people to get a permit plain and simple. There’s nothing in that 16hrs you can’t cover in 4, unless you count an instructor’s stories about their time in the service. It seems like some students are mistaking that 16 hrs for a robust education in the law or consider it training. It ain’t. You leave an IL carry class with no greater skill or knowledge after that 16 hrs than an online course. Having taken carry courses in MN, MA and IL I can tell you that’s the case.But I’m probably preaching to the choir. My question: How do we go about getting rid of the 16hr requirement? And let’s abolish FOID, expand legal places to carry, reduce the $150 fee while we are at it.

Agreed on almost all fronts.  The 16 hours WAS a waste of my time concerning learning anything.  I've been on this site long and often enough that what was taught in class had already been known through this awesome site.  My wife took the class with me and she did learn a few things.  That said, there are some things the class does teach depending on your level of ability as well as your common sense-O-meter.
You will certainly learn something. It just isn’t anything you can’t learn in 4 hours.

#34 connsolo

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 12:28 PM

You only have to do the 16 hours once. One good thing about it is that it meets or exceeds other states training requirements, and that's probably one reason the IL permit is recognized in so many states as compared to some other states permits.
On the other hand, it is overkill if you consider some states have no training requirements, and the streets are not flowing with rivers of blood.


Well I have to respectfully disagree with you, or at least add some context. Renewal is simpler in the two other states I’ve held a permit, and cheaper. If the IL permit process was on par with other states and we lost a couple states that honor the IL permit in the process, those seeking to carry in states not covered by IL permit would be free to pursue an out of state ccl like a Utah or Florida permit. If that was our reality, the dollar amount all in may be the same, but the time commitment would still be less (and obviously less time AND money for those who don’t need to carry in whatever state wouldn’t honor this hypothetical IL permit).

Lastly, and I totally got your point, it’s not just overkill compared to NO training required, it’s overkill even compared to states with beyond adequate training required. More importantly it’s not even overkill, it’s restrictive.

Overall I generally don’t agree with the “it could be worse” or “yeah, but” or silver lining sentimentality that I see here and in Massachusetts. Admittedly, I did nothing to get the law s passed, I respect the hard work that the community put in to get us where we are. Being new I’m just shocked by it all. I’ve had better, IL is home now, I want to help make it better here,

As it relates to the threads original topic, we should be high diving this guy, not tsktsk-ing him or his instructor. It’s a stupid law, we’re grown ups. Let’s change it.

#35 Xwing

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 03:20 PM

The original quote sounds like the scammy instructor wrote it, hoping to entice those who wish to ignore the law. 

 

The law requiring 16 hours is a bad law, but it is still the law.  It is a foolish move to skirt it, and then to brag about it publicly...


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#36 67vtx1800

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 06:32 AM

Instructors shortcutting the training are taking a big risk. I personally don’t give a stitch though. I respect those who want and provide advanced training. The required training for the CCL is an insult to adult intelligence. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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#37 Mr. Fife

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 07:34 AM



You only have to do the 16 hours once. One good thing about it is that it meets or exceeds other states training requirements, and that's probably one reason the IL permit is recognized in so many states as compared to some other states permits.
On the other hand, it is overkill if you consider some states have no training requirements, and the streets are not flowing with rivers of blood.

Well I have to respectfully disagree with you, or at least add some context. Renewal is simpler in the two other states I’ve held a permit, and cheaper. If the IL permit process was on par with other states and we lost a couple states that honor the IL permit in the process, those seeking to carry in states not covered by IL permit would be free to pursue an out of state ccl like a Utah or Florida permit. .


If we lost MN and MI then a non resident UT of FL would be no help. If it came to that I would be against shorter classes.


While shorter classes would be nice, for those who already have their permits it would make no difference at all. This fight must be fought by those who haven't had their training yet, and the rest of us will support them.
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#38 Tango7

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 11:52 AM

The reason this length and price point was chosen - so I heard - was because California law states "up to 16 hours of training", and the cost of CCW in Denver County CO is $152.50 (includes state ($52.50) and county ($100) fees).

 

The idea was to be as high as possible but still withstand judicial challenge as not being "excessive" - thus the reluctance to adopt Kelly Cassidy's or Barbie Doll Currie's 40 hour training requirements, or the $300 annual fees that certain machine Dhimmocrats discussed during hearings.

 

If there was proof that <insert numerical value> hours was the magic threshold for reducing accidents I'm certain that Brady/Gotham Pimp/Victims Propaganda Collusion (or a mother-may-issue states like NY, MA, NJ or CA) would have had it compiled by now, so as to justify their requirements, and they would have been happy to share it with Quinn, Cullerton or either of the Madigans.

 

They have not compiled it because statistical support for the concept of minimum training for CCW does not exist. It doesn't mean that CCWers and the general public do not benefit from minimum or additional training, only that there is no provable difference between ConCarry and NY/NJ/CA training, which nullifies the argument.


Edited by Tango7, 19 January 2018 - 11:57 AM.

You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#39 wtr100

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 12:42 PM

“Skirting the law” or not aside, 16 hrs of instruction is not intended to educate or train, its to make it difficult for people to get a permit plain and simple. There’s nothing in that 16hrs you can’t cover in 4, unless you count an instructor’s stories about their time in the service. It seems like some students are mistaking that 16 hrs for a robust education in the law or consider it training. It ain’t. You leave an IL carry class with no greater skill or knowledge after that 16 hrs than an online course. Having taken carry courses in MN, MA and IL I can tell you that’s the case.But I’m probably preaching to the choir. My question: How do we go about getting rid of the 16hr requirement? And let’s abolish FOID, expand legal places to carry, reduce the $150 fee while we are at it.


this exactly it's a barrier to entry - no more - no less

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#40 wtr100

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 12:59 PM



this exactly it's a barrier to entry - no more - no less.

I'm fortunate in my classes to be able to teach students to draw and live fire from holsters instead of just dry firing

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#41 spec5

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 01:01 PM

The reason this length and price point was chosen - so I heard - was because California law states "up to 16 hours of training", and the cost of CCW in Denver County CO is $152.50 (includes state ($52.50) and county ($100) fees).
 
The idea was to be as high as possible but still withstand judicial challenge as not being "excessive" - thus the reluctance to adopt Kelly Cassidy's or Barbie Doll Currie's 40 hour training requirements, or the $300 annual fees that certain machine Dhimmocrats discussed during hearings.
 
If there was proof that <insert numerical value> hours was the magic threshold for reducing accidents I'm certain that Brady/Gotham Pimp/Victims Propaganda Collusion (or a mother-may-issue states like NY, MA, NJ or CA) would have had it compiled by now, so as to justify their requirements, and they would have been happy to share it with Quinn, Cullerton or either of the Madigans.
 
They have not compiled it because statistical support for the concept of minimum training for CCW does not exist. It doesn't mean that CCWers and the general public do not benefit from minimum or additional training, only that there is no provable difference between ConCarry and NY/NJ/CA training, which nullifies the argument.

Barbie Doll Currie is an over the top comment. Have you seen her? LOL
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#42 WitchDoctor

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 01:56 PM

Spec5 stated:

"Barbie Doll Currie is an over the top comment. Have you seen her? LOL"

 I agree, she looks more like the father of the children in that California house/mess...


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#43 aka

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 10:27 AM

“Skirting the law” or not aside, 16 hrs of instruction is not intended to educate or train, its to make it difficult for people to get a permit plain and simple. There’s nothing in that 16hrs you can’t cover in 4, unless you count an instructor’s stories about their time in the service. It seems like some students are mistaking that 16 hrs for a robust education in the law or consider it training. It ain’t. You leave an IL carry class with no greater skill or knowledge after that 16 hrs than an online course. Having taken carry courses in MN, MA and IL I can tell you that’s the case.But I’m probably preaching to the choir. My question: How do we go about getting rid of the 16hr requirement? And let’s abolish FOID, expand legal places to carry, reduce the $150 fee while we are at it.

The 16 hour class can be done in 4-6 hours if the students have some experience with firearms. If the student does not have ay experience (never held or fired a gun) then the 16 hours will not do it. They need to take some basic training, then get some basic experience with firearms and then take the CCW class. Many students I see have no experience in firearms but want the CCW license. So they take the class, do the qualifying shoot and get their license. But then forget the idea of practice, practice and practice. Most people are not willing to put the time in to practice the skills. 


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#44 IH8IL

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 11:35 AM

You only have to do the 16 hours once. One good thing about it is that it meets or exceeds other states training requirements, and that's probably one reason the IL permit is recognized in so many states as compared to some other states permits.
On the other hand, it is overkill if you consider some states have no training requirements, and the streets are not flowing with rivers of blood.

Some states do not have training but those states are firearm friendly.

#45 JTHunter

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 04:19 PM

I could have taken the eight hour version, but wanted to learn all I could. The first day was gun safety, how to handle, etc.  We did touch on some laws, but the law stuff came down heavy on Sunday and I am glad I had the instructor at Maxons I did have.

Those that skirt the rules knowingly deserve to have their CCL revoked until they can prove they have taken the course by a certified CCL instructor

 

More time spent on the law, particularly the "when & when NOT" aspects would be preferable to me.  Basic gun handling should be limited to novice gun owners and those who actually want a "refresher course".  If an instructor spends 2-3 minutes with each person, then another 10-15 with the group, he should have a good idea of who needs the additional training.  Have a subordinate take those aside for retraining, let the proficient and safety-concious students to move ahead for a more detailed grounding in the law.

If I could find somebody that does a 12 hour class, I would probably take it.  My hunter safety cert lets me bypass 4 hours but nobody is doing 12 hours in this area.


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#46 soundguy

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 09:44 PM   Best Answer

 

I could have taken the eight hour version, but wanted to learn all I could. The first day was gun safety, how to handle, etc.  We did touch on some laws, but the law stuff came down heavy on Sunday and I am glad I had the instructor at Maxons I did have.

Those that skirt the rules knowingly deserve to have their CCL revoked until they can prove they have taken the course by a certified CCL instructor

 

More time spent on the law, particularly the "when & when NOT" aspects would be preferable to me.  Basic gun handling should be limited to novice gun owners and those who actually want a "refresher course".  If an instructor spends 2-3 minutes with each person, then another 10-15 with the group, he should have a good idea of who needs the additional training.  Have a subordinate take those aside for retraining, let the proficient and safety-concious students to move ahead for a more detailed grounding in the law.

If I could find somebody that does a 12 hour class, I would probably take it.  My hunter safety cert lets me bypass 4 hours but nobody is doing 12 hours in this area.

 

 

It gives you 4hrs credit. NRA Basic Pistol gives you 8hrs credit.

 

I'm guessing no one offers a discount for 12 because you're still gonna be there for two days of class. If only you had 8hrs credit...


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#47 wtr100

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 06:27 AM

 

 

I could have taken the eight hour version, but wanted to learn all I could. The first day was gun safety, how to handle, etc.  We did touch on some laws, but the law stuff came down heavy on Sunday and I am glad I had the instructor at Maxons I did have.

Those that skirt the rules knowingly deserve to have their CCL revoked until they can prove they have taken the course by a certified CCL instructor

 

More time spent on the law, particularly the "when & when NOT" aspects would be preferable to me.  Basic gun handling should be limited to novice gun owners and those who actually want a "refresher course".  If an instructor spends 2-3 minutes with each person, then another 10-15 with the group, he should have a good idea of who needs the additional training.  Have a subordinate take those aside for retraining, let the proficient and safety-concious students to move ahead for a more detailed grounding in the law.

If I could find somebody that does a 12 hour class, I would probably take it.  My hunter safety cert lets me bypass 4 hours but nobody is doing 12 hours in this area.

 

 

It gives you 4hrs credit. NRA Basic Pistol gives you 8hrs credit.

 

I'm guessing no one offers a discount for 12 because you're still gonna be there for two days of class. If only you had 8hrs credit...

 

 

I offer a discount for those with a HEC - I also offer veterans to take the full 16 hours for the 8 hour price - 12 hour course would be a PITA for me as a small time instructor 


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#48 JTHunter

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 04:19 PM

wtr100 - are you anywhere near St. Clair or Madison counties?  I live in northern St. Clair.


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#49 Glocknuckle

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 08:25 AM

“Skirting the law” or not aside, 16 hrs of instruction is not intended to educate or train, its to make it difficult for people to get a permit plain and simple. There’s nothing in that 16hrs you can’t cover in 4, unless you count an instructor’s stories about their time in the service. It seems like some students are mistaking that 16 hrs for a robust education in the law or consider it training. It ain’t. You leave an IL carry class with no greater skill or knowledge after that 16 hrs than an online course. Having taken carry courses in MN, MA and IL I can tell you that’s the case.But I’m probably preaching to the choir. My question: How do we go about getting rid of the 16hr requirement? And let’s abolish FOID, expand legal places to carry, reduce the $150 fee while we are at it.

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#50 RandyP

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 08:46 AM

And by "god"I presume you mean Mike Madigan?



#51 Gamma

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 05:10 PM

“Skirting the law” or not aside, 16 hrs of instruction is not intended to educate or train, its to make it difficult for people to get a permit plain and simple. There’s nothing in that 16hrs you can’t cover in 4, unless you count an instructor’s stories about their time in the service. It seems like some students are mistaking that 16 hrs for a robust education in the law or consider it training. It ain’t. You leave an IL carry class with no greater skill or knowledge after that 16 hrs than an online course. Having taken carry courses in MN, MA and IL I can tell you that’s the case.But I’m probably preaching to the choir. My question: How do we go about getting rid of the 16hr requirement? And let’s abolish FOID, expand legal places to carry, reduce the $150 fee while we are at it.


this exactly it's a barrier to entry - no more - no less

Here's another point to consider.

Not only is a barrier to entry, it's a barrier to quality training.

By mandating that people spend a lot of time and money on near-uselessness, people are less willing to spend additional time and money on actually useful instruction or practice.

And among the uninformed, it leads to a false sense of accomplishment that they have "certified training and qualification".

Edited by Gamma, 16 May 2018 - 05:13 PM.

Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 10:03 AM

 

“Skirting the law” or not aside, 16 hrs of instruction is not intended to educate or train, its to make it difficult for people to get a permit plain and simple. There’s nothing in that 16hrs you can’t cover in 4, unless you count an instructor’s stories about their time in the service. It seems like some students are mistaking that 16 hrs for a robust education in the law or consider it training. It ain’t. You leave an IL carry class with no greater skill or knowledge after that 16 hrs than an online course. Having taken carry courses in MN, MA and IL I can tell you that’s the case.But I’m probably preaching to the choir. My question: How do we go about getting rid of the 16hr requirement? And let’s abolish FOID, expand legal places to carry, reduce the $150 fee while we are at it.

“Skirting the law” or not aside, 16 hrs of instruction is not intended to educate or train, its to make it difficult for people to get a permit plain and simple. There’s nothing in that 16hrs you can’t cover in 4, unless you count an instructor’s stories about their time in the service. It seems like some students are mistaking that 16 hrs for a robust education in the law or consider it training. It ain’t. You leave an IL carry class with no greater skill or knowledge after that 16 hrs than an online course. Having taken carry courses in MN, MA and IL I can tell you that’s the case.But I’m probably preaching to the choir. My question: How do we go about getting rid of the 16hr requirement? And let’s abolish FOID, expand legal places to carry, reduce the $150 fee while we are at it.


Well said......

 

I agree. I see too many students who want the CCL without the work to make themselves better and they are the one's I am afraid of. 


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#53 Gamma

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 01:39 PM

One of the realities of concealed carry is that it's actually useful in a day-to-day sense for personal protection.

As such, it brings people who aren't into guns into gun ownership.

People who are into guns tend to see concealed carry as a higher level of being a gun person, and for some it is, but for others it's absolute entry level.

It's difficult for firearms enthusiasts to reconcile people who are absolute neophytes to something that is a high level merit badge of sorts, especially in Illinois where firearms rights folks worked for decades to get that license.

The Illinois training requirements are oriented to that neophyte to firearms ownership. For some that's a good thing. For many it's still entirely inadequate. And for many others it's a complete waste of time and money. But that's the nature of legislatively mandated training.

Edited by Gamma, 20 May 2018 - 01:41 PM.

Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 02:10 PM

The Illinois training requirements are oriented to that neophyte to firearms ownership.


I've posted on it before, but when I took my CCL class, there were a lot of people in it who had never even touched a gun before the instructor put a 22LR pistol in their hands for their range qualification.

It makes me think of the range qualification as not a qualification, but rather as another part of the instruction, so that people getting a CCL have at least touched a gun once, even if it was only a 22LR for a few minutes in a class.

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#55 Gamma

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 03:36 PM

The Illinois training requirements are oriented to that neophyte to firearms ownership.


I've posted on it before, but when I took my CCL class, there were a lot of people in it who had never even touched a gun before the instructor put a 22LR pistol in their hands for their range qualification.

It makes me think of the range qualification as not a qualification, but rather as another part of the instruction, so that people getting a CCL have at least touched a gun once, even if it was only a 22LR for a few minutes in a class.

My introduction to this phenomenon came in the mid 2000s, I went to St Louis and took an MO carry class, just for general information as I'd be carrying in MO on another license.

I was very surprised at the class demographics, but after reflection and chatting with the instructor a little it came into focus. These are folks that have a purely utilitarian view of the firearm as a defensive tool with no interest in it otherwise.

One problem I see both in the neophyte category, and even more prominently in the non-shooting and media culture is the thought process that a firearm is some sort of magic talisman to wave away violence or evil. I've seen a bunch of that this weekend from the social media marxism warriors about how the armed officer at the Texas school didn't prevent the school shooting. That's not how any of this works.
Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.




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