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#61 MrTriple

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:34 AM

Interesting ecclesiastical issue that I just discovered:

In Illinois besides the Archdiocese of Chicago, there's also several dioceses as well, including those of Belleville, Joliet, Peoria, Rockford, and Springfield. These other dioceses are technically classified as being part of the "ecclesiastical province" of Chicago, which raises an interesting question: does Cupich's order cover these territories as well?

If so, his mistake is even worse because downstate and central Illinoisan Catholics will be extremely angry about this. I suspect these aren't affected by this order, owing to the fact that I think they are independent, but can anyone clarify?

Cupich just bothers me to no end. His beliefs are liberal social justice nonsense given the authority of a bishop, all while he stretches the limits of acceptability of Catholic theology. Illegal immigration is indefensible, but he doesn't just seem to support it, he criticizes those who rightfully acknowledge that its illegal and that a nation isn't a nation without borders. He seems antagonistic towards traditional Catholics and those concerned that the archdiocese isn't teaching theology as it should be taught, without exceptions or reinterpretations.

This is all part of a wider problem, and precisely why I much preferred Benedict to Francis.
"The point of [so-called "assault weapon" bans]...is not to ban firearms that are dangerous, it's to ban firearms that gun owners want to own because the people making the laws don't like gun owners. If we want to buy non-semiauto AR-style rifles, they'll ban those too, and for the same reason."

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#62 Liberty4IL

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:59 AM

The main problem here is an Illinois CC law that claims preemtion of the State to regulate CC but then allows any individual to put up a sign that carries the force of law thereby rewriting the State's list of prohibited places. It has allowed Rahm to create his liquor license GFZ, individuals to create a multitude of random GFZs, and now this.

#63 mikew

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:59 AM

What about that Diocese of Joliet, then?

 

Go west, young man!  Or, South, then west...

 

Parishes

Addison
     St. Joseph
     St. Philip the Apostle

Ashkum
     Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Aurora
     Our Lady of Mercy

Beaverville
     St. Mary  

Bensenville
     St. Alexis
     St. Charles Borromeo

Bloomingdale
     St. Isidore

Bolingbrook
     St. Dominic
     St. Francis of Assisi

Bourbonnais
     Maternity BVM

Bradley
     St. Joseph

Braidwood
     Immaculate Conception

Carol Stream
     Corpus Christi 
     St. Luke Parish

 

more more more at http://www.dioceseof...tent1.php?id=15



#64 Jeffrey

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:07 AM

What happened to a separation of church and state?  The only time a priest should get political is when the politics interferes with the beliefs of said church, IE birth control, abortion, etc.  This is flat out Chicago pols flexing muscles.


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#65 Hazborgufen

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:52 AM

 

As far as I know, Canon Law doesn't prohibit you from attending Mass outside your own home diocese, does it? If so, I see a lot of Catholics traveling far and wide to celebrate the liturgy outside of the Archdiocese. I see a lot of donors withholding money. I see a lot of people basically leaving and going elsewhere. Not a smart move, Cupich.

 

You can attend mass at any Catholic Church - outside your home diocese, or the Eastern Catholic Churches (who have their own eparchies - dioceses) they don't have to listen to Cupich, because they have their own bishops.  

 

 

Exactly what I was going for. There are a few Ukrainian Catholic churches around like the ones I used to go to. No doubt there are others. The mass will be different but it's still Catholic. Consider it a cultural event along with a religious obligation. Get some pierogies and borscht for lunch afterwards.



#66 KingWalleye

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:57 AM

Just one more reason to not go to church.

#67 Jeffrey

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:06 PM

What are the odds.  I just received an email from the Joliet Diocese, which we belong to.  The entire premise of the email is to remind us that on October 10 it is a "Day of Giving."  And to please donate for the betterment of the church.  I will be holding off for a while hoping to not see that Joliet caved to the politicians the same way Chicago rolled.  If this domino's into the rest of the state, I expect a decent decline in attendance as well as the donations.  What is so wrong with the Catholic church that they continue to try and push away more people every day.  The continuous decline in attendance is very evident.  This whole thing is extremely upsetting.  Church, to me, was the last place I thought I'd get political views pushed onto me.


...and justice for all

YOUR WALLET, the only place Democrats care to drill

#68 Xwing

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:47 PM

Start dropping no guns no money cards in the basket.

Hit him where it hurts! If every Chicagoland gun-owning Catholic withholds their tithes, he would certainly notice. Why give so much money to a group run by a LWW who hates freedom and rule of law.

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#69 3ddiver

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:56 PM

Sadly the people on this board and possibly other gun boards are the only people likely to care that the signs are going up. Most people will look at it and think there are no reasons for guns in church anyway. I disagree with that but unfortunately from talking to people the majority just don't care about guns being allowed or disallowed somewhere.

#70 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 02:30 PM

Unfortunately, the only thing that is going to rectify this kind of idiocy that Soupy Blaze is inflicting on his flock is if some violent imbecile mass-shoots up a church and a concealed carrier who was prevented from carrying and defending themselves and/or their family is harmed, then sues the Archdiocese for forcing them to choose between their First Amendment rights to freedom of religion or their own safety.

 

Not being a religious sort in the slightest, after having been subjected to several years of the worst that the Catholic school system has to offer in my profligate youth, I have a difficult time not sliding into the, "Well, yet another thing that religion screws up for society" mindset on this subject. However, even I can't take any sort of schadenfreude at people being rendered vulnerable due to what they consider an untenable choice.

 

It does, however, reinforce my viewpoint that the best thing I ever did was excise religion as an influence in my life that causes nothing but detriment to me.


Edited by ChicagoRonin70, 13 September 2017 - 02:31 PM.

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
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#71 jim123

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 02:38 PM

Just one more reason to not go to church.

...in Cook County! Gas, pop, and now church!



#72 BobPistol

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 05:26 PM

Interesting ecclesiastical issue that I just discovered:

In Illinois besides the Archdiocese of Chicago, there's also several dioceses as well, including those of Belleville, Joliet, Peoria, Rockford, and Springfield. These other dioceses are technically classified as being part of the "ecclesiastical province" of Chicago, which raises an interesting question: does Cupich's order cover these territories as well?
 

 

No, it does not.  Those dioceses have their own bishop and their bishop sets the rule.   


The Second Amendment of the Constitution protects the rest.

#73 BobPistol

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 05:28 PM

What are the odds.  I just received an email from the Joliet Diocese, which we belong to.  The entire premise of the email is to remind us that on October 10 it is a "Day of Giving."  And to please donate for the betterment of the church.  I will be holding off for a while hoping to not see that Joliet caved to the politicians the same way Chicago rolled.  If this domino's into the rest of the state, I expect a decent decline in attendance as well as the donations.  What is so wrong with the Catholic church that they continue to try and push away more people every day.  The continuous decline in attendance is very evident.  This whole thing is extremely upsetting.  Church, to me, was the last place I thought I'd get political views pushed onto me.

 

Joliet is not subject to Cupich's ridiculous rule. 


The Second Amendment of the Constitution protects the rest.

#74 Mr. Fife

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 06:47 PM

Exactly what I was going for. There are a few Ukrainian Catholic churches around like the ones I used to go to. No doubt there are others. The mass will be different but it's still Catholic. Consider it a cultural event along with a religious obligation. Get some pierogies and borscht for lunch afterwards.
That's blasphemy!

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#75 Tango7

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:13 PM

It's as if the Catholic Church is willing to make the same bet because, "what are they going to do, become Lutheran?". It's as if they lost track of the numbers who have already left, and left for a reason.

That reason is not because they've lost their faith. That reason is their faith.


For many former Catholics, the answer was the Episcopal Church - sadly, their bishops are as far (if not farther) left than the current Chicago Diocese and were among the first to ban CCW on their properties.

Of course, they were among those who believed that posting ILCS signage would keep all guns away.
You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#76 Tango7

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:16 PM

What happened to a separation of church and state?  The only time a priest should get political is when the politics interferes with the beliefs of said church, IE birth control, abortion, etc.  This is flat out Chicago pols flexing muscles.


In 2008 and 2012 the parking lot of our parish had more that its fair share of bumper stickers supporting a candidate who voted in favor of partial-birth abortion. They still received communion.
You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#77 splash

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:59 PM

Apart from my monthly pledges, I still have a weekly contribution. I guess that will stop as soon as they put up the sign.

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#78 borgranta

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:50 PM

Will armed law enforcement be forced to leave.
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#79 IH8IL

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:29 PM

Will armed law enforcement be forced to leave.


Of course not. The kings men can't be bothered with peasant laws. Please insert the sarcasm color

Edited by IH8IL, 13 September 2017 - 10:31 PM.


#80 mrmagloo

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 07:55 AM

Imho, have a word about it with your parishes Pastor and let him know how you feel. There are a lot of thought provokers listed above.  I've heard of at least one who doesn't agree and plans to look the other way - just keep it concealed.  I'm not sure if he's afraid he won't get invites for dinner anymore or what, but I'm sure there are more out there, especially further out, that aren't aligned with Suppy on this one.



#81 Hazborgufen

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 08:07 AM

 

Exactly what I was going for. There are a few Ukrainian Catholic churches around like the ones I used to go to. No doubt there are others. The mass will be different but it's still Catholic. Consider it a cultural event along with a religious obligation. Get some pierogies and borscht for lunch afterwards.
That's blasphemy!

 

 

If pierogies with sauteed onions, bacon, and sour cream along with a bowl of borscht is blasphemous then anti-gun stickers on church doors are the least of my concerns.


Edited by Hazborgufen, 14 September 2017 - 08:09 AM.


#82 Jeffrey

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 08:45 AM

 

What are the odds.  I just received an email from the Joliet Diocese, which we belong to.  The entire premise of the email is to remind us that on October 10 it is a "Day of Giving."  And to please donate for the betterment of the church.  I will be holding off for a while hoping to not see that Joliet caved to the politicians the same way Chicago rolled.  If this domino's into the rest of the state, I expect a decent decline in attendance as well as the donations.  What is so wrong with the Catholic church that they continue to try and push away more people every day.  The continuous decline in attendance is very evident.  This whole thing is extremely upsetting.  Church, to me, was the last place I thought I'd get political views pushed onto me.

 

Joliet is not subject to Cupich's ridiculous rule. 

 

Yup, that's why I am going to be cautious for the next few weeks and hope the chicago disease doesn't spread. 


...and justice for all

YOUR WALLET, the only place Democrats care to drill

#83 OldMarineVet

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:15 AM

What happened to a separation of church and state?  The only time a priest should get political is when the politics interferes with the beliefs of said church, IE birth control, abortion, etc.  This is flat out Chicago pols flexing muscles.

Hear that phrase "Separation of church and state" many times, but I've not been able to find the source.  It's not in the U.S. Constitution... Anybody know?



#84 Mr. Fife

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:15 AM

  If pierogies with sauteed onions, bacon, and sour cream along with a bowl of borscht is blasphemous then anti-gun stickers on church doors are the least of my concerns.
It's blasphemous to call varenyky perogies.

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#85 quackersmacker

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:15 AM

 

What happened to a separation of church and state?  The only time a priest should get political is when the politics interferes with the beliefs of said church, IE birth control, abortion, etc.  This is flat out Chicago pols flexing muscles.

Hear that phrase "Separation of church and state" many times, but I've not been able to find the source.  It's not in the U.S. Constitution... Anybody know?

 

Constitution, First Amendment


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#86 quackersmacker

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:19 AM

 

 

What happened to a separation of church and state?  The only time a priest should get political is when the politics interferes with the beliefs of said church, IE birth control, abortion, etc.  This is flat out Chicago pols flexing muscles.

Hear that phrase "Separation of church and state" many times, but I've not been able to find the source.  It's not in the U.S. Constitution... Anybody know?

 

Constitution, First Amendment

 

Pretty well discussed here    https://en.wikipedia...e_United_States


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#87 OldMarineVet

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 01:12 PM

What happened to a separation of church and state?  The only time a priest should get political is when the politics interferes with the beliefs of said church, IE birth control, abortion, etc.  This is flat out Chicago pols flexing muscles.

Hear that phrase "Separation of church and state" many times, but I've not been able to find the source.  It's not in the U.S. Constitution... Anybody know?

Constitution, First Amendment

First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nothing there that prohibits a pastor from preaching about political topics. Just says Congress can't make laws regarding the establishment of a religion. Or a law that prohibits a person's free exercise of his chosen religion. Like the remaining Bill of Rights, the purpose of the First Amendment is geared toward restraining government, not the People.

Edited by OldMarineVet, 14 September 2017 - 01:13 PM.


#88 OldMarineVet

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 01:16 PM

What happened to a separation of church and state?  The only time a priest should get political is when the politics interferes with the beliefs of said church, IE birth control, abortion, etc.  This is flat out Chicago pols flexing muscles.

Hear that phrase "Separation of church and state" many times, but I've not been able to find the source.  It's not in the U.S. Constitution... Anybody know?

Constitution, First Amendment

Ahh. That's very helpful. There's the source. Thank you

After stating the First Amendment, Jefferson said "thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

As I replied to your first post,"Like the remaining Bill of Rights, the purpose of the First Amendment is geared toward restraining government, not the People." I doubt Jefferson was envisioning a two-way wall, i.e. 1) pastors being restrained from speaking their mind because of the "Johnson Rule." or 2) not being able to display a Christian cross or article from another religion on public property(government can't make law respecting an establishment of religion", right?)

Edited by OldMarineVet, 14 September 2017 - 01:58 PM.


#89 soylentgreen

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 01:27 PM

 

What happened to a separation of church and state?  The only time a priest should get political is when the politics interferes with the beliefs of said church, IE birth control, abortion, etc.  This is flat out Chicago pols flexing muscles.

Hear that phrase "Separation of church and state" many times, but I've not been able to find the source.  It's not in the U.S. Constitution... Anybody know?

 

 

I believe the phrase originated in a letter from Jefferson to Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut.



#90 OldMarineVet

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 02:58 PM

What happened to a separation of church and state?  The only time a priest should get political is when the politics interferes with the beliefs of said church, IE birth control, abortion, etc.  This is flat out Chicago pols flexing muscles.

Hear that phrase "Separation of church and state" many times, but I've not been able to find the source.  It's not in the U.S. Constitution... Anybody know?

 
I believe the phrase originated in a letter from Jefferson to Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut.

Thank you




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