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Info to help get a no gun sign removed


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#1 sunder

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 05:02 PM

My local corner store in the burbs just put up a new no gun sign. Because a guy walked in to the store and they saw that he had a gun on him. The local cops told them to buy a no gun sign to stop it from happening.... I had a good hour long talk with the guys and a manager at the store. Im pretty sure i can get them to take down the sign. However I am looking to see if someone has a list of facts and stats already written up that i can pass along to them. The challenge that i see with them is they are worried about getting sued by an employee that get shot or killed if they dont have a no gun sign up. My answer to them was “your going to get sued either way weather you have a sign up or not.” They now understand that sign a will not stop a criminal and that it advertises that everyone inside are unarmed sheep and no one is gojng to fight back. I also showed them the posted app and explained to them how they will lose some business aswell. Any info will help. Thanks guys Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

#2 Euler

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 05:09 PM

So the store management thinks that prohibiting legal carriers will limit their civil liability in the event of a criminal act.

That sounds like a decision they made without talking to their insurance carrier. If they did, in fact, talk to their insurance carrier, maybe they need a new insurance carrier.

There have been posts before about businesses putting up signs as a requirement for their insurance.

Edited by Euler, 17 May 2019 - 05:10 PM.

The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

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#3 sunder

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 05:19 PM

They never mentioned insurance being a factor. More so they saw a guy with a gun showing and freaked out. The cop told them to order a sticker. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

#4 soundguy

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 05:44 PM

Have them give you written permission to carry on the premises so you can continue to do business with them.


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#5 Flynn

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 05:49 PM

I do love how some people think a sign is somehow going to relieve them of civil liability, as if immunity from civil suits was as simple as plastering a "I'm not liable for any damages caused by this vehicle" bumper sticker on your car so that you never get sued if you are in an accident.


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#6 Euler

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 06:21 PM

They never mentioned insurance being a factor. More so they saw a guy with a gun showing and freaked out. The cop told them to order a sticker.


They said they were worried about being sued. Suits are civil liability. Insurance covers liability.

Cops, in general, are not the best source of advice about civil law. They're not necessarily worse than most other people, but the insurance carrier is the party with whom they should be talking.
 

Have them give you written permission to carry on the premises so you can continue to do business with them.


The sign has the force of law for all licensees. Permission slips from the owners would be irrelevant. People carrying for other reasons (like they're cops or security guards) could be okay.

Edited by Euler, 17 May 2019 - 06:27 PM.

The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#7 sunder

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:01 PM

Courts wont give two f’s about a permission slip.I will just stop shopping there if it comes to it. Still looking for something with bullet points about ccl and gun free zones pertaining to IL to give yo the owner. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

#8 Flynn

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:01 PM

 

Have them give you written permission to carry on the premises so you can continue to do business with them.


The sign has the force of law for all licensees. Permission slips from the owners would be irrelevant. People carrying for other reasons (like they're cops or security guards) could be okay.

 

 

I wouild ague that the law is not that black and white, but ambigious when permission is given, much like you can post a sign on your front door and it won't forbid you from carrying in your own house.

 

(g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:
        (1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission;
 
That would imply carrying wtih permission is a rigth exclusive and not bound by the CCL, but of course that doesn't mean a po-po or prosector will agree.

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#9 soundguy

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:02 PM

soundguy, on 17 May 2019 - 6:44 PM, said:

    Have them give you written permission to carry on the premises so you can continue to do business with them.

The sign has the force of law for all licensees. Permission slips from the owners would be irrelevant. People carrying for other reasons (like they're cops or security guards) could be okay.

 

I think I disagree... should I wish to post my business as a no carry zone, I can still carry and designate employees and others to do so as well. I would be the one filing the complaint.


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#10 Euler

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:05 PM

soundguy, on 17 May 2019 - 6:44 PM, said:
    Have them give you written permission to carry on the premises so you can continue to do business with them.

The sign has the force of law for all licensees. Permission slips from the owners would be irrelevant. People carrying for other reasons (like they're cops or security guards) could be okay.

 
I think I disagree... should I wish to post my business as a no carry zone, I can still carry and designate employees and others to do so as well. I would be the one filing the complaint.


With the force of law, the State of Illinois would be the one filing the complaint. The most (or least?) you would do would be to chose not to testify for the prosecution.

Edited by Euler, 17 May 2019 - 07:06 PM.

The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#11 soundguy

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:11 PM

 

With the force of law, the State of Illinois would be the one filing the complaint. The most (or least?) you would do would be to chose not to testify for the prosecution.

 

 

Uhhhh.... how do the cops ever get there to file a complaint?

 

Just as posting is up to the proprietor, so is calling the cops.

The proprietor files the complaint. The cops make the arrest.

There is no "force of law" if the proprietor doesn't file a complaint.


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#12 BobPistol

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:13 PM

Time for this business owner to receive a bunch of "no guns no money" cards. 


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#13 mab22

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:31 PM

The challenge that i see with them is they are worried about getting sued by an employee that get shot or killed if they dont have a no gun sign up.

I would ask them to ask their attorney this,
1. If I have a no gun sign up and an employee gets shot by a criminal can I get sued?
2. If I don’t have a no gun sign up and an employee gets shot by a criminal can I get sued?
Void the FOID!

#14 Smallbore

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:36 PM

I don't think stats will impress the owners.
Unless the establishment has all enter through a metal detector, I would ask why they have no problem with allowing career felon enter with a gun but prevents the vetted law abiding gun owner from entering.
If common sense does not prevail then there is little hope.

#15 TomKoz

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:58 PM

Walk in with your firearm.
Show it to them.
Ask how good the sign worked?
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#16 sunder

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 07:59 PM

Walk in with your firearm.
Show it to them.
Ask how good the sign worked?


True..... then sunder goes to jail....lol


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#17 sunder

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:01 PM

Walk in with your firearm.
Show it to them.
Ask how good the sign worked?


True..... then sunder goes to jail....lol


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Proof the sign works....lol


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#18 cherryriver

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:06 PM

To the "permission slip" point only:

Under Illinois' UUW law, a person who lawfully possesses a firearm, with an FOID in the case of an Illinois resident, may carry a firearm on their own property; in their fixed place of business; and on another person's property with the owner's specific permission.  All this is completely apart from the FCCA 2013 and existed in the law for many years prior to the issuance of CCLs.

A prime example of this is jewelry stores, traditionally with armed employees, giving such permission in order to have guns prepared ready throughout the store.

On the other hand, convincing a middle-ground person such as the proprietor here appears to be, will be uphill in the aftermath of a police-called incident.

About the only suggestion I might have is offering the proprietor a free intro or other class, or even a low-pressure range session with experienced and knowledgeable shooters able to carefully demonstrate ordinary firearm use.  But that would be tough to arrange.


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#19 soundguy

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:08 PM

Just let them know why you aren't going to do business with them any longer.


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#20 Euler

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:16 PM

With the force of law, the State of Illinois would be the one filing the complaint. The most (or least?) you would do would be to chose not to testify for the prosecution.

 
Uhhhh.... how do the cops ever get there to file a complaint?
 
Just as posting is up to the proprietor, so is calling the cops.
The proprietor files the complaint. The cops make the arrest.
There is no "force of law" if the proprietor doesn't file a complaint.


The force of law is the prosecutor and the courts.

True, if any crime is hidden from the cops, and no one reports it, they can't make an arrest. That doesn't stop a crime from being a crime. Getting away with a crime doesn't make it legal.

However, if a cop sees a crime being committed in front of him, he's duty-bound to stop it. He may or may not make an arrest. If he makes an arrest, the prosecutor may or may not pursue charges. None of that is up to the store owner.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#21 soundguy

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:20 PM

 

 

With the force of law, the State of Illinois would be the one filing the complaint. The most (or least?) you would do would be to chose not to testify for the prosecution.

 
Uhhhh.... how do the cops ever get there to file a complaint?
 
Just as posting is up to the proprietor, so is calling the cops.
The proprietor files the complaint. The cops make the arrest.
There is no "force of law" if the proprietor doesn't file a complaint.

 


The force of law is the prosecutor and the courts.

True, if any crime is hidden from the cops, and no one reports it, they can't make an arrest. That doesn't stop a crime from being a crime. Getting away with a crime doesn't make it legal.

However, if a cop sees a crime being committed in front of him, he's duty-bound to stop it. He may or may not make an arrest. If he makes an arrest, the prosecutor may or may not pursue charges. None of that is up to the store owner.

 

 

It is entirely up to the proprietor!


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#22 Euler

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:24 PM

The force of law is the prosecutor and the courts.

True, if any crime is hidden from the cops, and no one reports it, they can't make an arrest. That doesn't stop a crime from being a crime. Getting away with a crime doesn't make it legal.

However, if a cop sees a crime being committed in front of him, he's duty-bound to stop it. He may or may not make an arrest. If he makes an arrest, the prosecutor may or may not pursue charges. None of that is up to the store owner.

 
It is entirely up to the proprietor!


The case would be People vs. Somebody. The "People" are represented by the prosecutor. The proprietor doesn't get to pick to whom a law applies and to whom it doesn't.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#23 soundguy

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 09:22 PM

 

 

The force of law is the prosecutor and the courts.

True, if any crime is hidden from the cops, and no one reports it, they can't make an arrest. That doesn't stop a crime from being a crime. Getting away with a crime doesn't make it legal.

However, if a cop sees a crime being committed in front of him, he's duty-bound to stop it. He may or may not make an arrest. If he makes an arrest, the prosecutor may or may not pursue charges. None of that is up to the store owner.

 
It is entirely up to the proprietor!

 


The case would be People vs. Somebody. The "People" are represented by the prosecutor. The proprietor doesn't get to pick to whom a law applies and to whom it doesn't.

 

 

In the case of "who can carry on my premises" it is entirely up to the proprietor. The sign, and the ability to legally disallow carry n otherwise carryable property exists only for the proprietor so that he may lawfully press misdemeanor charges against those who violate his will.


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#24 michael

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 09:55 PM

 

 


It is entirely up to the proprietor!

 


The case would be People vs. Somebody. The "People" are represented by the prosecutor. The proprietor doesn't get to pick to whom a law applies and to whom it doesn't.

 

 

In the case of "who can carry on my premises" it is entirely up to the proprietor. The sign, and the ability to legally disallow carry n otherwise carryable property exists only for the proprietor so that he may lawfully press misdemeanor charges against those who violate his will.

 

 

Who can carry is entirely up to the proprietor. If the proprietor sees a firearm in his store, can call the police to investigate a crime. At that point, (in IL at least, and as far as I've heard, not a lawyer, etc), it is out of his hands in IL. The cop may or may not arrest at his discretion, and the prosecutor may or may not file charges at his discretion. The cop is the complainant, and the proprietor has no way to force or make demands about any of that. Also, this thread has strayed from the topic of convincing businesses to remove their signs.

 

Also, also, forum gave me an error about too many blocks of text. The quoting above might be messed up now.


Edited by michael, 17 May 2019 - 09:56 PM.


#25 Euler

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 10:00 PM

In the case of "who can carry on my premises" it is entirely up to the proprietor. The sign, and the ability to legally disallow carry n otherwise carryable property exists only for the proprietor so that he may lawfully press misdemeanor charges against those who violate his will.


No. If you post a sign, the law applies to everybody. If somebody carries and violates the law, you're not pressing charges. The state is. You're not the victim. The People of the State of Illinois are. It's out of your hands.

If you don't want some particular person in your store with a gun, but everybody else is okay with a gun, take the sign down and ask that one person to leave. If they don't leave, they're trespassing. For that, you can press charges it they don't leave.

Edited by Euler, 17 May 2019 - 10:03 PM.

The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#26 Glock23

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 10:17 PM

Courts wont give two f’s about a permission slip.I will just stop shopping there if it comes to it.

Still looking for something with bullet points about ccl and gun free zones pertaining to IL to give yo the owner.


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Here ya go.

http://illinoiscarry...showtopic=38212
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#27 Mr. Fife

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 03:32 AM

Google "Gun Facts". You should be able to download a PDF with all of the information you need.
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#28 lockman

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 06:23 AM


 

 

The force of law is the prosecutor and the courts.
True, if any crime is hidden from the cops, and no one reports it, they can't make an arrest. That doesn't stop a crime from being a crime. Getting away with a crime doesn't make it legal.
However, if a cop sees a crime being committed in front of him, he's duty-bound to stop it. He may or may not make an arrest. If he makes an arrest, the prosecutor may or may not pursue charges. None of that is up to the store owner.

 
It is entirely up to the proprietor!
 


The case would be People vs. Somebody. The "People" are represented by the prosecutor. The proprietor doesn't get to pick to whom a law applies and to whom it doesn't.
 


 
In the case of "who can carry on my premises" it is entirely up to the proprietor. The sign, and the ability to legally disallow carry n otherwise carryable property exists only for the proprietor so that he may lawfully press misdemeanor charges against those who violate his will.


A criminal trespass prosecution would also be ‘the people vs somebody’ but could not proceed or succeed without the consent or cooperation of the owner.


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#29 Prairie Pucker

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 11:00 AM

Didn't most of the mass shootings/school shootings, etc., already have "No Guns" signs up?  Or if not signs, laws prohibiting guns or the use of guns within city limits?  (Las Vegas, Mandalay Bay hotel, etc)  Other than advertise no armed resistance on site, what good did those do?


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#30 Euler

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 11:43 AM

A criminal trespass prosecution would also be ‘the people vs somebody’ but could not proceed or succeed without the consent or cooperation of the owner.


A criminal trespass has the property owner as the victim. A violation of a gun-free zone has the state as the victim.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.





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