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More gun means less crime?


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#1 vito

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 08:41 AM

Most of us, or maybe all of us that support the concept of legal concealed carry, and certainly support the concept of private citizens being able to legally "keep and bear arms" believe that legalized concealed carry tends to reduce crime by making our communities less of a "target rich" environment for armed criminals. Yet I have seen several articles in media lately referring to a 2018 study claiming the exact opposite, i.e., that legal concealed carry is associated with higher crime rates. A full page article in yesterday's Rockford Register Star was one such article. This conclusion makes no sense to me, but I have no doubt that the anti gun crowd will seize this study as the long sought after "proof" that legal concealed carry is a bad idea. This article (https://www.thedaily...n-violent-crime) is just that kind of argument that opposes our rights, and uses that 2018 study to support their position. I could not seem to find authoritative articles disputing this quoted study, but I am hoping maybe some members here have found information that can be shared that would help offset this seemingly irrational conclusion about crime and concealed carry.


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#2 Grayhawk

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 09:55 AM

Poke around https://crimeresearch.org/. John Lott does such research showing more guns = less crime.


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#3 lockman

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 10:03 AM

Tail wagging the dog? What came first the chicken or the egg? Did people get more concealed carry licenses because of the high rate of crime or did crime go up because people got concealed carry licenses? Did the study and data pass a peer review? Was the data cherry picked and/or the timeframe cherry picked to result in the maximum numbers for the conclusion they want. John Lott have anything to say on that study? Sorry more questions than answers. Actually all questions no answers. ^ this ***

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#4 soundguy

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 10:45 AM

The egg came first.

Then more eggs.

 

Love to see an analysis from Lott.


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#5 rmart

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 11:06 AM

A key question to look at is the number of crimes being committed by those holding concealed carry permits.

If there's no association there then there's a logical fallacy being perpetrated.

 

The indication would be that the increase in the number of concealed carry permits is BECAUSE crime is on the rise, not that crime is on the rise BECAUSE of the increase in concealed carry permits.

 

A current and specific creditable refutation would be useful though.


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Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to buy cars... ~unknown

 

The problem is not guns! It's hearts without God, homes without discipline, schools without prayer, and courts without justice. ~unknown

 

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While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but once they lose their virtue, they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader." ~ Samuel Adams 1779 to James Warren

 

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#6 soundguy

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 11:26 AM

^^  I think they're thinking criminals are more violent in response to armed good guys  ^^

 

Escalation by criminals would not be unexpected.

Nor would the consequences of more good guy escalation.

 

There could be other factors.

Any rise in violent crime may just be due to poverty, right?


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#7 rmart

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 11:40 AM

I think we need to stop blaming poverty for crime. There are very many very poor people who do not engage in crime and live an honest life.

 

While poverty can be a factor, crime is a cultural and spiritual thing mostly in my opinion. If your culture or your level of spirituality allows or even promotes crime then poverty can certainly drive an otherwise honest person over the edge but poverty does not necessarily lead to crime.


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Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to buy cars... ~unknown

 

The problem is not guns! It's hearts without God, homes without discipline, schools without prayer, and courts without justice. ~unknown

 

"A general dissolution of the principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy.

While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but once they lose their virtue, they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader." ~ Samuel Adams 1779 to James Warren

 

Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster

 

How much can you put in your signature before it becomes too long??

 


#8 soundguy

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 11:48 AM

Yep.
That last line should have been purple.
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#9 jim123

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 11:57 AM

It's just more Liberal Progressive half truths. Over a century ago they got people to stop carrying guns in public. A half century later they blamed guns for all the violent crime. A few years later, Jane Byrne banned all guns in chicago but the violence didn't end. Now that the law said you can have guns to protect yourself in public...... if you have a permit, they're blaming concealed carry permits because the largest number of them were issued in chicago. If you read the news, anyone can see 3rd worlders are causing pretty much all the problems. Heyjackass.com keeps track of the shootings in the city and shows today that 96.6% of the shooting victims fall into that group. If they weren't being shot by members of the same group the Liberal Progressives certainly would throw racism into the lie as well.  



#10 soundguy

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 12:28 PM

Obviously this new study isn’t addressing Chicago or Illinois, rather the entire nation.
I wonder what is going on in Hawaii, where it is extremely difficult to have a permit to carry. Or NYC, Los Angeles, maybe NJ. Have violent crimes risen where you cannot carry?

This study is too long for me to go through right now... and too wonky to skim.
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