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Employment question


cola490

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Again, people seem to have difficulty with the concept of legal requirements vs. keeping one's job. You do not have to answer. Your employer can fire you for refusing to answer.

 

It's legal to wear red shoes. Your employer can fire you for wearing red shoes to work.

It's legal to drink beer. Your employer can fire you for drinking beer at work.

It's legal to call your boss an idiot. Your employer....well, you get the picture.

Not quite. The first one would lead the the employer being sued and losing if they actually gave that reason. The second of course and the third - depends on the judge but they could argue you created a hostile work environment. At will gives them the right to fire you without a reason not any reason.

 

 

If they have a dress code that requires black shoes then. The point is the activity is legal but is prohibited by the employer. You don't go to jail but you do get fired.

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Again, people seem to have difficulty with the concept of legal requirements vs. keeping one's job. You do not have to answer. Your employer can fire you for refusing to answer.

 

It's legal to wear red shoes. Your employer can fire you for wearing red shoes to work.

It's legal to drink beer. Your employer can fire you for drinking beer at work.

It's legal to call your boss an idiot. Your employer....well, you get the picture.

 

Not quite. The first one would lead the the employer being sued and losing if they actually gave that reason. The second of course and the third - depends on the judge but they could argue you created a hostile work environment. At will gives them the right to fire you without a reason not any reason.

If they have a dress code that requires black shoes then. The point is the activity is legal but is prohibited by the employer. You don't go to jail but you do get fired.

 

Again that all depends on the courts. I'd take a guess that most courts are going to view shoe color as petty and rule it wrongful termination. Employee rule books are not above the law or automatically legally binding anymore than illegal clauses in signed contracts.

 

Now if you're talking about dressing like a hooker in a business office that works with the public.... that's different because the business can argue that it harms their image. But the color of one shoes can hardly be perceived as harmful in any way.

 

Of course you can fire them for wearing brown shoes if your dress code says black only. But you better not give that as the reason when no reason is required.

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If they have a dress code that requires black shoes then. The point is the activity is legal but is prohibited by the employer. You don't go to jail but you do get fired.

 

Again that all depends on the courts. I'd take a guess that most courts are going to view shoe color as petty and rule it wrongful termination. Employee rule books are not above the law or automatically legally binding anymore than illegal clauses in signed contracts.

 

Now if you're talking about dressing like a hooker in a business office that works with the public.... that's different because the business can argue that it harms their image. But the color of one shoes can hardly be perceived as harmful in any way.

 

Of course you can fire them for wearing brown shoes if your dress code says black only. But you better not give that as the reason when no reason is required

 

So you admit that an employer can have a dress code, and that dress code can specify the color of shoes one must wear. We have an ice cream parlor here where employees have to wear all white. It's part of the corporate image. White shirt, white pants, white shoes, white paper hat. Are you telling me that if you show up in blue jeans every day they can't fire you because it's discrimination?

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If they have a dress code that requires black shoes then. The point is the activity is legal but is prohibited by the employer. You don't go to jail but you do get fired.

 

Again that all depends on the courts. I'd take a guess that most courts are going to view shoe color as petty and rule it wrongful termination. Employee rule books are not above the law or automatically legally binding anymore than illegal clauses in signed contracts.

Now if you're talking about dressing like a hooker in a business office that works with the public.... that's different because the business can argue that it harms their image. But the color of one shoes can hardly be perceived as harmful in any way.

Of course you can fire them for wearing brown shoes if your dress code says black only. But you better not give that as the reason when no reason is required

 

 

So you admit that an employer can have a dress code, and that dress code can specify the color of shoes one must wear. We have an ice cream parlor here where employees have to wear all white. It's part of the corporate image. White shirt, white pants, white shoes, white paper hat. Are you telling me that if you show up in blue jeans every day they can't fire you because it's discrimination?

I love Whitey's ice cream!

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If they have a dress code that requires black shoes then. The point is the activity is legal but is prohibited by the employer. You don't go to jail but you do get fired.

Again that all depends on the courts. I'd take a guess that most courts are going to view shoe color as petty and rule it wrongful termination. Employee rule books are not above the law or automatically legally binding anymore than illegal clauses in signed contracts.

Now if you're talking about dressing like a hooker in a business office that works with the public.... that's different because the business can argue that it harms their image. But the color of one shoes can hardly be perceived as harmful in any way.

Of course you can fire them for wearing brown shoes if your dress code says black only. But you better not give that as the reason when no reason is required

So you admit that an employer can have a dress code, and that dress code can specify the color of shoes one must wear. We have an ice cream parlor here where employees have to wear all white. It's part of the corporate image. White shirt, white pants, white shoes, white paper hat. Are you telling me that if you show up in blue jeans every day they can't fire you because it's discrimination?

Read what I said carefully. It all depends on the court. I would liken the ice cream shop to the dressing like a hooker example I gave - the dress code is part of their image. I also never said that an employer can't have a dress code. They can have whatever they want but it still has to be legal.

 

I was also specifically addressing the shoe color example which is likely to land the employer in hot water as I can think of no legitimate reasons to restrict shoe color. Maybe a particular judge might but I doubt it. And of course more broadly addressing employee policies in general which often are not even legal such as mandatory searches of bags or vehicles. Just because it's policy does not make it legal grounds for termination.

 

Employers get away with it because either employees don't bother to know their rights, don't want to go through the expense of a legal battle or the employer doesn't actually state a reason for termination. You can fire someone for being black if you want. 100% illegal but if the reason isn't given then the employer is in the clear.

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If your place of employment is NOT POSTED, if the owner or supervisor ask you if your are carrying, do you have to answer? I know common sense dictates you want to keep your job, I know under Illinois law if law enforcement asks you must answer.

 

nothing wrong with lying to a man who has no business to know

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Read what I said carefully. It all depends on the court. I would liken the ice cream shop to the dressing like a hooker example I gave - the dress code is part of their image. I also never said that an employer can't have a dress code. They can have whatever they want but it still has to be legal.

 

I was also specifically addressing the shoe color example which is likely to land the employer in hot water as I can think of no legitimate reasons to restrict shoe color. Maybe a particular judge might but I doubt it. And of course more broadly addressing employee policies in general which often are not even legal such as mandatory searches of bags or vehicles. Just because it's policy does not make it legal grounds for termination.

 

Employers get away with it because either employees don't bother to know their rights, don't want to go through the expense of a legal battle or the employer doesn't actually state a reason for termination. You can fire someone for being black if you want. 100% illegal but if the reason isn't given then the employer is in the clear.

 

 

So then it is possible to have certain requirements for shoes, e.g. Nurses must wear white shoes, security guards must have black polished shoes, etc. And refusal to comply can be grounds for termination in those circumstances. So, what I said originally is true - you can be fired for wearing red shoes. I did NOT say everyone could be fired for wearing red shoes. I don't know why you gotta try to make it into a discrimination case.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So many armchair quarterbacks... and lawyers , I guess.

 

reality in Illinois, unless you are working through employment agreement (contract) as say executive, you are at will. Every company I have worked for and seen has multiple employment policies which you agree to uphold as condition of continuious employment. you sign those policies (or you dont get on the payroll), you are train in many of those policies, you regularly acknowledge (at least annually) many/all of those policies and re-sign having read, understood, and acknowledged the policies at this given moment. Companies have full history of your training/certification of having understood the policies, etc. Violating their policies will get you disciplined/fired. As manager/director of 50+ people I have to continuously train and certify in those policies. I also have also seen guidance that requires for me to essentially put a person on leave (in preparation for termination) if they fail to complete certification by date required. Violation of company policies is serious stuff and gets treated seriously, don't bet your career and livelihood based on internet armchair lawyers on what is "illegal". and all of the policies are written to company with most restrictive version of employment law (so I have to seen through multi hour California training since company is incorporated in S.F even if I live/work in Illinois and have no team members on west coast).

 

you can of cause have fantasies of friendly judge/jury, and of cause companies get sued ALL the time, however if and when you would work, it is hard to say - you may have better luck with Illinois lottery if company legal and compliance groups are doing their job (believe me they do).

 

Now, as a manager I am directly prohibited from asking such stupid questions, or conversing on many other topics (i.e. medical is absolute no-no, all communication is happening outside of the company through third party which discloses absolute minimum to the company to protect your confidentially). As in medical, it is not my right to know anything about it, or inquire. and I would only have a conversations I must have only with independent witnesses which are actually video recorded...

 

so PLEASE avoid being stupid on this, minimize the conversation, make decision on what you want to do, and if necessary change the job (they are not dragging you there under threat of the violence). work for decent company that understand that your privacy is just as important as their legal protection for the business/shareholders equity.

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I worked a lot of retail in my younger years. There was plenty in their policies that violated state laws even in the larger, nationwide businesses. It is a business relationship first and foremost. Those who treat it like a family affair are the first ones to get the shaft. One would think they'd all be on the up and up but in my experience that hasn't been the case. If it helps their profits they will try anything they can do make it happen, legal or not.
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