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#31 patriot1776

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 07:58 AM

Besides caliber , I hear so many concerned about how many magazines and round capacity of the weapon . Like my best instructors said , it will be up close , fast , furious and over in a couple seconds . 1 to 3 shots . So why are you concerned with 12 , 15 or whatever high capacity magazine ? Why carry more than one extra magazine . Fancy sights ? You will point to shoot and trigger weight will not be felt even at 10 pounds .  Do you get target ready faster with a small concealed carry weapon any faster than with a full or medium sized weapon ? Some do some don't .  If I get off 1 to 3 shots  with a .22LR weapon before you get off any with your weapon of caliber or choice , who would you rather be ? Then if I do the same with a .380 or 9mm ? What if I can control my pocket size or a tad bigger weapon with one hand from the draw / hip position tucked and canted away from me without coming to eye level , checking sights and extending my arms ? Speed and defense counts , this is not accurate target shooting for a score , for that I have a nice 5" 1911 . If someone else is armed and you have a malfunction , a pile of magazines of any caliber will mean you are shot and possibly killed so my carry weapons are quality , tested , clean and properly lubricated run with oem magazines and feedable ammo for the particular weapon .



#32 cybermgk

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:41 AM

You also cannot make a pistol the size of the Rohrbaugh R9 chambered in .40 S&W, the 9mm can be made into pocket pistols and the 40 really cannot unless you are Señor Pantalones Gigantes.

Or his cousin Senorita Brazierra Generosa 


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#33 cybermgk

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:47 AM

Besides caliber , I hear so many concerned about how many magazines and round capacity of the weapon . Like my best instructors said , it will be up close , fast , furious and over in a couple seconds . 1 to 3 shots . So why are you concerned with 12 , 15 or whatever high capacity magazine ? Why carry more than one extra magazine . Fancy sights ? You will point to shoot and trigger weight will not be felt even at 10 pounds .  Do you get target ready faster with a small concealed carry weapon any faster than with a full or medium sized weapon ? Some do some don't .  If I get off 1 to 3 shots  with a .22LR weapon before you get off any with your weapon of caliber or choice , who would you rather be ? Then if I do the same with a .380 or 9mm ? What if I can control my pocket size or a tad bigger weapon with one hand from the draw / hip position tucked and canted away from me without coming to eye level , checking sights and extending my arms ? Speed and defense counts , this is not accurate target shooting for a score , for that I have a nice 5" 1911 . If someone else is armed and you have a malfunction , a pile of magazines of any caliber will mean you are shot and possibly killed so my carry weapons are quality , tested , clean and properly lubricated run with oem magazines and feedable ammo for the particular weapon .

Not to put too fine a point on it, but your talking about one (or a few) of many potential SD scenarios.  What if there are multiple assailants.  What if it's a mass shooting scenario (like a recent church.), a single assailant, but on one of many pain numbing drugs, etc. etc. etc.


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#34 tkroenlein

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:18 AM

Besides caliber , I hear so many concerned about how many magazines and round capacity of the weapon . Like my best instructors said , it will be up close , fast , furious and over in a couple seconds . 1 to 3 shots . So why are you concerned with 12 , 15 or whatever high capacity magazine ? Why carry more than one extra magazine . Fancy sights ? You will point to shoot and trigger weight will not be felt even at 10 pounds .  Do you get target ready faster with a small concealed carry weapon any faster than with a full or medium sized weapon ? Some do some don't .  If I get off 1 to 3 shots  with a .22LR weapon before you get off any with your weapon of caliber or choice , who would you rather be ? Then if I do the same with a .380 or 9mm ? What if I can control my pocket size or a tad bigger weapon with one hand from the draw / hip position tucked and canted away from me without coming to eye level , checking sights and extending my arms ? Speed and defense counts , this is not accurate target shooting for a score , for that I have a nice 5" 1911 . If someone else is armed and you have a malfunction , a pile of magazines of any caliber will mean you are shot and possibly killed so my carry weapons are quality , tested , clean and properly lubricated run with oem magazines and feedable ammo for the particular weapon .


Not to put too fine a point on it, but your talking about one (or a few) of many potential SD scenarios.  What if there are multiple assailants.  What if it's a mass shooting scenario (like a recent church.), a single assailant, but on one of many pain numbing drugs, etc. etc. etc.


Statistically, the scenarios patriot1776 described are the great majority of SD events. Remember, 90 some odd percent of DGUs do not result in shots fired. So to patriot's point, gearing up for a terror attack or whatever may put you at a disadvantage for what is a much more likely event.

#35 RandyP

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:39 AM

Statistics and percentages mean exactly zero as they relate to a specific unique incident. In the extremely unlikely event that a person has to draw their firearm in self defense having more rounds available than 'needed' is not a negative and having fewer than needed is definitely not a positive. Based purely on the 'statistics' there's no real need to carry a SD firearm at all, but again, stats mean zip if that one in a zillion event happens to YOU. Common sense and the odds say I'm a dope for buying a Powerball ticket, but I still do cuz if you ain't in it, you can't win it.

 

I would suggest to carry what you can shoot well, bring along as much ammo as gives you comfort, carry as often as legal and hope to all the gods that you never have to supply data to create an 'average' statistic.



#36 cybermgk

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:46 AM

 

Besides caliber , I hear so many concerned about how many magazines and round capacity of the weapon . Like my best instructors said , it will be up close , fast , furious and over in a couple seconds . 1 to 3 shots . So why are you concerned with 12 , 15 or whatever high capacity magazine ? Why carry more than one extra magazine . Fancy sights ? You will point to shoot and trigger weight will not be felt even at 10 pounds .  Do you get target ready faster with a small concealed carry weapon any faster than with a full or medium sized weapon ? Some do some don't .  If I get off 1 to 3 shots  with a .22LR weapon before you get off any with your weapon of caliber or choice , who would you rather be ? Then if I do the same with a .380 or 9mm ? What if I can control my pocket size or a tad bigger weapon with one hand from the draw / hip position tucked and canted away from me without coming to eye level , checking sights and extending my arms ? Speed and defense counts , this is not accurate target shooting for a score , for that I have a nice 5" 1911 . If someone else is armed and you have a malfunction , a pile of magazines of any caliber will mean you are shot and possibly killed so my carry weapons are quality , tested , clean and properly lubricated run with oem magazines and feedable ammo for the particular weapon .


Not to put too fine a point on it, but your talking about one (or a few) of many potential SD scenarios.  What if there are multiple assailants.  What if it's a mass shooting scenario (like a recent church.), a single assailant, but on one of many pain numbing drugs, etc. etc. etc.


Statistically, the scenarios patriot1776 described are the great majority of SD events. Remember, 90 some odd percent of DGUs do not result in shots fired. So to patriot's point, gearing up for a terror attack or whatever may put you at a disadvantage for what is a much more likely event.

 

Sucks to be under gunned if you have the misfortune to be IN one of those other scenarios, as infrequent as they are (and fwiw, you don't need a terrorist attack, to have multiple assailants).  I also don't see where carrying a slightly higher capacity puts you at a disadvantage.  Patriot's point is predicated on that.  Sorry, imho, that's a false assumption.


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#37 cybermgk

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:48 AM

I would suggest to carry what you can shoot well, bring along as much ammo as gives you comfort, carry as often as legal and hope to all the gods that you never have to supply data to create an 'average' statistic.

Ding, freaking ding.  And that might be a double stack 9mm of some kind, a 45, a .40, or occasionally a pocket 380 acp (with proven penetration and expansion HPs).


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#38 tkroenlein

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 04:55 PM

Please gents, by all means, cite any incident when a small caliber, small capacity mouse gun was insufficient in a civilian DGU.


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#39 patriot1776

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 06:59 AM

 

Besides caliber , I hear so many concerned about how many magazines and round capacity of the weapon . Like my best instructors said , it will be up close , fast , furious and over in a couple seconds . 1 to 3 shots . So why are you concerned with 12 , 15 or whatever high capacity magazine ? Why carry more than one extra magazine . Fancy sights ? You will point to shoot and trigger weight will not be felt even at 10 pounds .  Do you get target ready faster with a small concealed carry weapon any faster than with a full or medium sized weapon ? Some do some don't .  If I get off 1 to 3 shots  with a .22LR weapon before you get off any with your weapon of caliber or choice , who would you rather be ? Then if I do the same with a .380 or 9mm ? What if I can control my pocket size or a tad bigger weapon with one hand from the draw / hip position tucked and canted away from me without coming to eye level , checking sights and extending my arms ? Speed and defense counts , this is not accurate target shooting for a score , for that I have a nice 5" 1911 . If someone else is armed and you have a malfunction , a pile of magazines of any caliber will mean you are shot and possibly killed so my carry weapons are quality , tested , clean and properly lubricated run with oem magazines and feedable ammo for the particular weapon .

Not to put too fine a point on it, but your talking about one (or a few) of many potential SD scenarios.  What if there are multiple assailants.  What if it's a mass shooting scenario (like a recent church.), a single assailant, but on one of many pain numbing drugs, etc. etc. etc.

 

With enough what ifs William Perry "The Fridge" could have played wide receiver for the Bears . I am talking concealed carry situations and the data compiled for decades shows up close and very short duration . I don't care what you carry , if multiple armed subjects confront you and they draw/ fire first you are in big trouble . Pain numbing drugs do not stop or protect cortex shots and in a shoot situation multiple shots in rapid succession is the norm . If people were allowed to be armed , how many would have returned fire in most mass shootings ? If that was possible carry in those places the shooter has more to think about and if that alone sways one mass shooter to not go ahead with their plan,  then it is a success . The mind is a wonderful thing to play with , including the bad guys mind .  



#40 patriot1776

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 07:14 AM

People should plan for the most common situation they will face . Keep it simple . Save the WWIII scenarios for the paint ball park and computer game . If it is your time to go then it is your time and that Abrams tank you were thinking about buying will not save you . I got a buddy that owns a Barrett and a Socom 16 . I asked him while we were at a restaurant having lunch , why do you have those ? He said when the fall of society comes and a group arrives at his house he will be ready . I responded ok , what are you carrying now right here ? He said , I'm not carrying , we are at a quiet out of the way place . I shook my head and showed him my 500 lumen Surefire , Microtech auto and I have a Glock 43 at 5 o'clock with one extra magazine packing Federal HST . Which guy are you ?



#41 smokehouse

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 08:22 AM

I was going to say...I really don't buy the common caliber debate anymore. .9mm, .40, .45 auto (I know there are more, I just pointed out the more common rounds)...all are common semi auto pistol rounds and all will serve anyone who is trained to use them, well. I've spent plenty of time with 9mm, .40, and .45 auto, I just prefer 9mm, I shoot best with it.

 

Concerning the OPs question...is .40 going away? Nah...I'm pretty sure its here to stay, this is WAY too large of a user base for it to just go away. I have noted that sales of the ammo are way down, even when things are dry around here, they always seem to have .40 in stock. I'm seeing it discounted online as well...

 

I will make one more guess...with a huge user base, yet sales slowing, it make me guess one thing; many .40 owners aren't super active shooters. I know many people that own .40 pistols, and a vast majority of them are Glocks. Of those owners, many of them are single pistol owners. Many of them ask "well...what do cops use? I want that one". My father worked at a firearm store, he was asked that more times that he can count. I'm not trying to be insulting, but this seems to be the case many times. Every active shooter that I personally know (again, key word being personally), they all shoot 9mm in bulk, not .40. Even if they own a .40, they'll being a 9mm to the rage with them for extended shooting.



#42 lee n. field

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 09:14 AM

I was in a gun shop a few weeks ago and got to talking to the owner. He was telling me that the .40 caliber is going by the wayside and the 9 mil is really coming of age. 

 

...would this be so?

 

The "Internet Gun Social Media Herd Mind" is fickle, and has moved in recent years to a "hail of 9mm lead" strategy.

 

Police and military have moved/are moving to 9mm, for reasons that don't necessarily apply to Joe Citizen who carries a gun for personal protection.  Different roles, different rules, different goals.


Edited by lee n. field, 17 November 2017 - 10:29 AM.

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#43 DD123

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 09:32 AM

Carry what you can shoot accurately, control under rapid fire, under pressure. Basically carry whatever gun/caliber that allows all three above to be true for you.

 

In general, on most days I carry an LCP in my pocket with two spare mags, all loaded with some flavor of Hornady XTP's. I'll also carry either a 9mm XDS or a G23. Carry what you're confident with and are competent with, and not based on a recommendation from a YouTube expert or some random person on the internet.

 

ETA: When I first bought the G23, I wasn't a fan. It was very snappy, and I wasn't extraordinarily accurate with it. Today, after two years of competitive shooting, I can shoot that gun very well because I've learned how to grip, focus, and control a gun under pressure.  One of my close relatives carries a 10mm, and aside from an accurate first shot, every shot after that is all over the place.  I found that to be true for me as well when I first picked up a G29.  Today that's different because I've learned how to control the gun, but I won't carry it unless there are large predatory animals around like bears or moose lol.  Give me an off duty size gun, in 9, 40, or 45, and I will feel perfectly comfortable that I can put rounds where I want, as quickly as I need, and not worry about missing and hitting anything but the target.  

 

I remember reading about a few people deciding to carry a snub nose 44 magnum.  All that muzzle flash, punishing recoil isn't worth what you sacrifice in ability to put rounds back on target quickly as one would with a 9mm.  Slow fire groups are great, but can you empty the cylinder in 2 seconds and have all rounds be on target?  People often criticize me for carrying an LCP, but at 10 yards, one handed, I can put all 6 rounds/7 if I barney one up, on a B/C target in under 3 seconds.  If I grip it with two, I can drop that time down a bit further and tighten the group up.  Everything I've read from people who've been in gunfights, they all seem to highlight the same criteria for how to be successful in a gunfight......putting rounds on target extremely fast.  If you can't do that with X caliber, find a caliber and gun that you can do that with.  Everything else is machismo.  


Edited by DD123, 17 November 2017 - 10:08 AM.

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#44 Yeti

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 09:48 AM

This is one of those 9mm vs. 40 caliber threads that is starting. My take on the whole thing is shoot what you are comfortable with. Shot placement is key
 
That all being said, if you can put 9mms on target better then any other caliber, go with that. .


Referencing part of Mick G’s post, an unexpected accident had me focused on this “what can I shoot well” thought and, even more specifically, “what can I shoot (and run) well one-handed with only my off hand”. A few unplanned seconds of life meant that my carry choice was no longer a higher-recoil option that I could shoot well two-handed but not sufficiently one-handed. All the odds/statistics said that I would never have to consider one-handed shooting but yet, for a least many months, I do and the accident that happened to me could instantly happen to almost anyone. The top instructors all mention one-handed shooting, off hand training, etc. to cover injuries, awkward positions, protective moments holding kids, or other reasons and it never mattered to me... until it did. It is now a significant consideration in my carry/caliber/model/training choices.

#45 OldMarineVet

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 09:52 AM

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Edited by OldMarineVet, 03 December 2017 - 09:40 AM.


#46 DD123

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 10:14 AM

 

People might be thinking of different distances/situations debating 9mm vs .40 caliber. That's why these 9mm vs .40 caliber debates tend to end up inconclusive.
 
Why not use the FBI distance/situation statistics referenced in the article as a base for the debate? These statistics are often referenced in other articles and heeded by many in law enforcement, especially in cities. Not surprising since predators tend to leverage their element of surprise. Here's an excerpt from the article:
---------------------------------
The following data is from the 1970'S (old but still good), NYPD SOP 9 study of over 6000 Police combat cases that reviewed cases from 1854 to 1979.

Total Officers killed --- 254

Contact to 3 feet -------- 86 -- % 34
3 feet to 6 feet -------- 119 -- % 47
6 feet to 15 feet -------- 24 -- % 9
15 feet to 25 feet ------- 12 __ % 5

90% were killed at within 15 feet.

The shooting distances where Officers survived, remained almost the same during the SOP years (1970-1979), and for a random sampling of cases going back as far as 1929. 4,000 cases were reviewed. The shooting distance in 75% of those cases was less than 20 feet.

Contact to 10 feet --- 51%
10 feet to 20 feet --- 24%

In 70% of the cases reviewed, sight alignment was not used. Officers reported that they used instinctive or point shooting.
----------------------------------
http://www.pointshoo...com/1aquals.htm

----------------------------------
If you want to learn more about point shooting, I recommend "Shooting to Live", W.E. Fairbairn & E.A. Sykes, Chapter IV, Original edition 1942 (that's right, 1942) Reprint Edition 1979

FYI, 90% of my handgun training is drawing, one-handed point shooting, and moving, with one magazine change, at a B27 silhouette target, at 3 yards, 4 yards, and 5 yards away (with a G27, 180 grain)

Reading comments above and repeating this post. Agreed, it's impossible to predict the situation you will be in. But it makes sense to try to cover the odds. Local cops have the most experience in likely situations. Ask your friendly cop what his opinion is regarding the likelihood of above info.

And here's this oldy reminder regarding the "buffer" represented by the distances above. It's fed by situational awareness. Local cops live through this stuff every day. Regarding magazines discussed above, I recommend carrying at least of extra. You don't know how many people you will have to deal with.

 

To add onto your "carry at least one extra mag", you're not only carrying that extra mag in case there are multiple assailants, you're also carrying it in the event that you have a malfunction and need to eject the mag, clear the malfunction, and pop in a fresh mag.  

 

You should be able to clear any jam, without taking your eyes off of the threat.  Drop the mag, rack it, pop in a new mag, rack it, all while the gun is still aligned for the most part with the target.  You should also be able to do a reload without having to look for the mag, so basically still keeping your eye on target.  That's why most instructors teach doing reloads in front of your face.  This way you can still keep an eye on the target, while also making sure you are able to get the mag into the gun on the first try.  


Force and intimidation are the tools of tyrants.  - Ron Paul

 

If Democrats quit shooting people, "gun violence" would go down by 80%.......

 

Taxation is theft

 

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny" - Thomas Jefferson


#47 lee n. field

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 10:33 AM

You also cannot make a pistol the size of the Rohrbaugh R9 chambered in .40 S&W, the 9mm can be made into pocket pistols and the 40 really cannot unless you are Señor Pantalones Gigantes.

 

Yep.  There's a lower limit to how small you want to shoot a gun in .40, and the 9mm single stack compacts are real popular right now.

 

I have an XDS in 9mm, and don't really want one in .40.  Shoot .40 through a big enough gun, and the whole "it's too snappy!" thing goes away.


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Why would you have the day of the LORD?
It is darkness, and not light,"

#48 OldMarineVet

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 10:49 AM

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Edited by OldMarineVet, 03 December 2017 - 09:41 AM.


#49 Xwing

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 11:56 AM

These conversations are always entertaining.  The 22LR in your pocket is infinitely more useful in an emergency than the .45 in your gun safe....  Basically, pick your carry gun based on what you actually prefer to carry.  Is it comfortable, fits with your clothing style, able to shoot it well, etc...  The rest is mostly academic.


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#50 hgmeyer

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 12:37 PM

Please gents, by all means, cite any incident when a small caliber, small capacity mouse gun was insufficient in a civilian DGU.
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Rough statistic is that a hit from anything is 67% effective. Then, from that to 85% is dependent on caliber, bullet, shot placement, and everything else... Handgun ARE the gun you have until you can get to the gun you want...A longgun.
I've matured enough to where I am like a rodeo bull... If you can hang in there for eight seconds you just might win... But, those eight seconds are gonna be the toughest of your life

#51 patriot1776

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 01:54 PM

What will matter most is who gets off first with a string of accurate shots and from 15 feet or less people skilled and trained will hit somewhere on the body . Carrying 100's of rounds is useless  if the other guy empties his mag before you get a shot off . These situations many times are over in a couple seconds . Anyone ever used a shot simulator ? Tells you how fast you got a shot or shots off , how many fired and locates hits on the assailant . Finally it determines if your shots had a probability to incapacitate or kill them . 



#52 OldMarineVet

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:47 AM

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Edited by OldMarineVet, 03 December 2017 - 09:41 AM.


#53 Mick G

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 11:02 AM

patriot1776, you said "What will matter most is who gets off first with a string of accurate shots and from 15 feet or less people skilled and trained will hit somewhere on the body."

patriot, I think we are in general agreement. Good point "skilled and trained will hit somewhere on the body" is an important variable. It's not unusual for a person under pressure (both good guy and bad guy) under pressure to have trouble hitting moving targets. Some because they are so dependent on sights opposed to point shooting. So I think good guy can:

1) be a moving target by practicing "Shoot and move" techniques. Many classes teach that.
2) shoot at a moving target by finding classes/facilities that have moving targets, especially laterally (link below has a moving robot that shoots airsoft ammo back at you especially during your magazine change.)

If you can get both 1) and 2) going at the same time, it's especially challenging. But you can get close to that effect if you only do 1) with a stationary silhouette target. Just your moving forces you to constantly re-sight if you are using the sights.

https://officerunderfire.com/

 

Chances are if you are changing magazines the fight is over. There is the possibility that you will have to drop a mag BUT if so then you probably have the wrong weapon (unreliable) or that one in a million chance that you got a bad round (which is unlikely). Changing mags is NOT going to clear a malfunction. Rack that slide and fast. Many trainers teach shoot and move but most SD scenarios go down fast and close. As a combat vet I think you have a different view of how most of these things go down. You were trained to keep moving zig zag, find cover, pay attention and then return fire.

 

This usually does not apply to civilian or even police shootings. You cannot train on how you are going to react to an actual bullet whizzing past your head. There is no time on the range, combat or otherwise that will give you an idea on how you will react in a actual firefight. You have to be in one to know and I think that's where you are jaded.

 

My point is this:

 

How many times has say a PD officer seen a "bad guy" with a gun and the shooting goes something like this. The PD officer who has trained and is proficient ON THE RANGE unholsters his say Glock or M&P and immediately goes into spray and pray mode. He keeps firing until his magazine is empty, the "bad guy" got off a few rounds at him but now the PD officer has lost his shite. The bad guy is running away in a straight line and basically you just had more then 30 rounds fly in both directions and nobody was hit. Luckily no bystanders were hit. Bullets just flying around and the PD officer is still pulling his trigger after his slide is locked back. That's a very common scenario, much more then most would like to think. The "bad guy" gets away and that's the end of it. That's one of the reasons that the police show up in numbers. The more officers, the more likely one of them will score a incapacitating hit. The 20% rule.

 

patriot1776 is much more on track with his assessment. Some thug who thinks he is all bad and spent stupid money of all things a Glock thinks he is the best because after all he has spent or traded $1000 in dope for his "piece". Here's the thing, he has probably shot it all of 10 times, 3 shots here and run away, it is likely loaded with range ammo but he's the bad man with a gun.

 

Then he decides he is going to use it for robbing someone or a store. How many times have seen some thug walk into a store and the immigrant store owner has his own weapon and you have a shoot out at a range of 6 feet and nobody gets hit? The only casualty is a bag of Funyuns.

 

Evidentially that fateful day come when he messes with the wrong person. The guy who has been there, has situational awareness and has had bullets fly past his head. The whole situation goes down quickly, about 3 seconds or less. Your gut tells you this guy is up to something, you see him trying to fumble with his gun from his pants hanging down but since you already were aware that this person was up to no good you have already drawn. Boom, Boom, Boom and you just Mozambique Drilled this guy or at least put two center mass and you did with a little .380 or 9mm with a 7 round capacity but the result is the same, he's no longer a threat. Then you are immediately  

looking for any other threats. After about 30 seconds then the adrenaline starts flowing.

 

All the training at the range is not going to prepare on how you will react. You might end like the clerk or PD officer who emptied his magazine as did the bad guy and nobody got hit. A shot simulator might help you but most people think they are going to react perfectly. The truth is you are just as likely to piss yourself then actually being in control of yourself. You think that suburban cop who weighs 375 lbs. and trains CCL classes is going to fare well? News flash, that guy gets winded walking up to your car to write a ticket. He's not going to move and run, he's going to run back to his cruiser for cover and start shooting wildly because he is out of breath. He cant even get a sight picture because he's basically freaking out and hyperventilating. His saving grace, other cops after he screams on the radio "shots fired". They come swarming and crash into the " bad peoples" car and let loose.

 

In the suburbs some of those cops are going to ex military and have been there. They end it rather quickly. Then the relatives claim what good boys their gangbanger kids were and sue for 4 million dollars. The city of Chicago will pay them between $400,000 and a million but the suburbs fight it tooth and nail. "He was going to get his GED and go to college". Yeah OK, he was 23 and high on PCP. 

 

No, he was probably going to be killed one way or the other because he chose the life of a gangbanger.

 

Practice, practice, practice but be prepared for a whole different scenario then what plays out in your head and then pray you are never in that scenario.



#54 OldMarineVet

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 11:31 AM

deleted


Edited by OldMarineVet, 03 December 2017 - 09:42 AM.


#55 FLMOPE

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 01:11 PM

I got quotes from two different gun shops on what they would give me for a .40 cal pistol I have been looking to trade. 

 

I got lowball figures that didn't come anywhere near what I know the pistol is worth. In both cases I was told.40 cal pistols aren't selling right now and they couldn't justify paying anymore.



#56 ScopeEye

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 03:42 PM

I was in a gun shop a few weeks ago and got to talking to the owner. He was telling me that the .40 caliber is going by the wayside and the 9 mil is really coming of age. 

 

...would this be so?

It already has gone to the wayside, the market is flooded with 40 cal.

Will 40 cal. disappear? No


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