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Dealer Licensing Rules Officially Posted and Open for Public Comment


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#1 Molly B.

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 10:14 AM

https://www.cyberdri...e43_issue34.pdf

 

STATE POLICE, DEPARTMENT OFFirearm Dealer License Certification Act20 Ill. Adm. Code 1232..........................................................................9084

 

 

 

Questions/requests for copies/comments through 10/7/19:  Matthew R. Rentschler, DSP, 801S. Seventh St., Suite 1000-S,Springfield Il 62703, 217/782-7658


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#2 soundguy

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 11:17 AM

At 250 pages, I won't be printing it!


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#3 harley1955

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 11:21 AM

Wow! Just wow! Unbelievable, 24x7 coverage of every square inch for 90 days. The storage costs alone will be unreal I would think. Alarm system worthy of fort knox.....Haven't gotten thru the rest of it yet.



#4 InterestedBystander

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 11:29 AM

Wow! Just wow! Unbelievable, 24x7 coverage of every square inch for 90 days. The storage costs alone will be unreal I would think. Alarm system worthy of fort knox.....Haven't gotten thru the rest of it yet.

That is digital video AND requires simultaneous off site storage plus minimum 4 hour battery backup.

Edited by InterestedBystander, 26 August 2019 - 11:35 AM.

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#5 Lou

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 11:30 AM

Created to drive even more small businesses out of existence.

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#6 InterestedBystander

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 11:30 AM

"Keep ammunition stored separately from the firearms inventory and out of the reach of customers"

Great...get to wait until a clerk is done selling someone a firearm. No more easily inspecting new ammo or quickly picking up some .22.

Edited by InterestedBystander, 26 August 2019 - 11:47 AM.

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#7 InterestedBystander

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 11:34 AM

At 250 pages, I won't be printing it!

250 pages are all items published in this edition of register. ISP rules are 32 pages.
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#8 harley1955

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 11:47 AM

Someone needs to pull the pages out and post it.



#9 Blaster

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 12:02 PM

Pages 125 through 157 are relevant info. 


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#10 harley1955

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 12:02 PM

You know, with everything else that is going on in this state, if I had a retail gun business, I would have to seriously consider leaving this state. Heck, look at how many people are leaving already and they don't even have to deal with all that crap. Who knows what all else is going to become law.....



#11 steveTA84

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 12:12 PM

My favorite store seems to be dumping lots of inventory but had yet to announce they are moving to WI. The intended effect is working as designed

#12 borgranta

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 12:18 PM

Are the bathrooms exempt from the recording requirement?


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#13 Flynn

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 12:24 PM

Someone needs to pull the pages out and post it.

 

Pages 125-157 ONLY

 

http://s000.tinyuplo...506034672561696

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Edited by Flynn, 26 August 2019 - 12:25 PM.

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#14 InterestedBystander

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 12:25 PM

Are the bathrooms exempt from the recording requirement?

Yes
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#15 harley1955

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 12:26 PM

 

Someone needs to pull the pages out and post it.

 

Pages 125-157 ONLY

 

http://s000.tinyuplo...506034672561696

 

 

Thank you!



#16 Flynn

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 12:26 PM

Are the bathrooms exempt from the recording requirement?

 

Yes " but does not include restrooms or any other area specifically prohibited by law"


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#17 Flynn

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 12:32 PM

Imagine if even half these requirement were enacted to exercise another right like voting, protesting or religion, this is beyond an infringment of civil rights, it's a downright draconian attack on civil rights!


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#18 mjw45

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 12:43 PM

Just starting to read it- Video of parking lots, license plates of vehicles. This is nearly impossible in some situations. What about a shop that doesn’t control its shared parking lot. With a center drive and cars parked in both sides and multiple entrances, that are not under the control of the FFL. How do you even begin to set up a system that will get license plate images. Get permission from other stores to place your cameras on their buildings? And then run wires through their building? This could end up costing a small fortune, much more than the $1500 fee. Simultaneously backed up offsite? The bandwidth requirements are going to be huge. And your local cable company doesn’t like tons of uploading so be prepared to upgrade your internet service. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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#19 mjw45

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 01:00 PM

Record keeping- Sales must be recorded within 24 hours The ATF allows 7 days for recording disposition. So if you choose the best person to handle your paperwork, they better be available every day. And no more leaving at the end of the day before the store is closed for a day or two without sticking around to dispo firearms. This really sucks as only a few select people should be trusted to access the records system. Filling out a 4473 is much different than working on the ‘bound books’ If you screw up a 4473 the error should be caught by the person doing the disposition. If the disposition is screwed up your whole bound book is screwed up. And it means no one can work at a gun store unless they are proficient in computers. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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#20 borgranta

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 01:10 PM

Imagine if even half these requirement were enacted to exercise another right like voting, protesting or religion, this is beyond an infringment of civil rights, it's a downright draconian attack on civil rights!

If they did something like this to book stores and libraries they would be rightly called out for violating the 1st amendment.  I wonder why they think it is acceptable to set a dangerous precedent by making laws that violate portions of the constitution.  Eventually maybe they will add laws that violate the 1st amendment using this law as a guide.


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#21 Flynn

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 01:14 PM

Just starting to read it- Video of parking lots, license plates of vehicles. This is nearly impossible in some situations. What about a shop that doesn’t control its shared parking lot. With a center drive and cars parked in both sides and multiple entrances, that are not under the control of the FFL. How do you even begin to set up a system that will get license plate images. Get permission from other stores to place your cameras on their buildings? And then run wires through their building? This could end up costing a small fortune, much more than the $1500 fee. Simultaneously backed up offsite? The bandwidth requirements are going to be huge. And your local cable company doesn’t like tons of uploading so be prepared to upgrade your internet service. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

A constant upload of multiple video streams of sufficient quality (for say 8-12 hours of busines operations) that they desire will completely saturate (or more realistically far exceed) most consumer Internet offerings and likely incure HUGE over bandwidth charges exceeding the data caps on most if not all consumer Internet connections and there isn't options for 'bigger' commercial Internet offerings in most areas.  Heck truth be told once you leave big cities and the collar counties there are VAST areas of Illinois where you can't even realistly obtain high speed Internet with a fast enough and big enough pipeline to upload that quantity of video to off site storage everyday that they want to require!

 

I push my montly consumer data cap and bandwidth just steaming TV (I limit myself to mostly 720p streams to keep bandwidth in check) and that is only one video at a time (maybe two on rare occations) and we don't generally even watch 10 hours of TV a day combined across the family.  Forget about uploading 5 or 10 'decent' camera feeds (or 5-10 times the bandwidth I'm currently using) as outlined in the proposal for 8-12 hours of business operations each day to an off site storage facility, it would not happen where I live on the Internet offerings availalble to me, and I'm not even that rural!


Edited by Flynn, 26 August 2019 - 01:15 PM.

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#22 mjw45

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 01:14 PM

One other though on the video recording- What about locations that do not support high speed Internet? There will be no way to meet the offsite storage video requirements. There are still plenty of places, especially south of I80 that the only options for Internet are spotty cell service or satellite. Satellite definitely does not have the bandwidth available for streaming video. This just keeps getting worse. There will be a few large gun stores in metropolitan areas and everybody else will be closed. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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#23 mjw45

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 01:15 PM

Flynn it is not just business hours. It is 24/7 surveillance of all areas. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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#24 borgranta

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 01:16 PM

I wonder if this law is disproportionately affecting minority owned FFL businesses.  If yes than it can be challenged as the discriminatory law that it is.


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#25 borgranta

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 01:20 PM

I wonder if any FFLs will be streaming to Twitch or YouTube in an attempt to have an offsite video that is no cost.


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#26 InterestedBystander

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 01:25 PM

I wonder if any FFLs will be streaming to Twitch or YouTube in an attempt to have an offsite video that is no cost.

Streaming is not a backup.

"The recordings shall be simultaneously backed-up offsite (e.g., cloud storage, offsite server)."

Edited by InterestedBystander, 26 August 2019 - 01:25 PM.

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#27 mjw45

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 01:31 PM

Comcast doesn’t list upload speeds for its business service. Best info I could find quickly is maybe 10-20M for some of the fastest and most expensive packages . Upwards of $2-300 per month after introductory pricing ends. And that might still not be enough for the number of high resolution cameras required. People were complaining about local storage prices, but hard drives are fairly cheap and a fairly one time purchase. These offsite requirements are insane. I could see an easy $3-500 per month for a modest size store to meet the storage requirements. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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#28 borgranta

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 01:33 PM

 

I wonder if any FFLs will be streaming to Twitch or YouTube in an attempt to have an offsite video that is no cost.

Streaming is not a backup.

"The recordings shall be simultaneously backed-up offsite (e.g., cloud storage, offsite server)."

 

If streamed to YouTube it would remain available on YouTube.


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#29 Flynn

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 01:59 PM

Flynn it is not just business hours. It is 24/7 surveillance of all areas. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yeah, I see that, even further driving home the point that this simply won't be possible for many FFLS outside of huge metropolitan areas where that type of consumer Internet bandwidth of is simply not available, and would literally require $10s of thousands (or even $100s of thousands) in upfront and monthly cost to run a dedicated Internet backbone line to the business to supply that level of bandwidth, it's not going to happen in rural and even many urban areas of Illinois and that alone should be plenty sufficient to deem the law unconstitutional as it for all intents totally denies a right to a large portion of the state!


Edited by Flynn, 26 August 2019 - 02:00 PM.

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#30 Flynn

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 02:07 PM

 

 

I wonder if any FFLs will be streaming to Twitch or YouTube in an attempt to have an offsite video that is no cost.

Streaming is not a backup.

"The recordings shall be simultaneously backed-up offsite (e.g., cloud storage, offsite server)."

 

If streamed to YouTube it would remain available on YouTube.

 

 

The amount of bandwidth required to 'reliably' stream multiple HD cameras to Youtube and 'hope' it actually gets there and is retained at acceptable levels is IMO a pipedream with consumer Internet connections.  Data retention requires buffered and paced uploading that can resume or adjust upload speeds with no loss when bandwidth drops or the Internet goes down and can be resumed later, live streaming doesn't accomidate that and would almost put you in violation of the law when that live stream video is lost and/or of insufficient quality.  Pluys live streaming doesn't work when the Internet is down, so you need a mechanism to backup off site at a later time.


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