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#61 chicagoresident

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:12 PM

The far right is as stupid as the far left. Both are entrenched in deep holes from which it is likely they will never emerge. We need to be somewhere on the middle scale. The middle will support gun rights. Keep it sensible and acceptable and we can control it.

I dont trust you middle of the road guys. Your kind got this State in the sorry shape it is in. By almost all of your posts I highly doubt you vote anything other than Democrat!!!!
Its not left, right, and centrist anymore. I think you probably want to familiarize yourself with the political compass. Some even argue for putting economic on a 3rd plane. It's why we can both be considered "extreme right wing radicals" but completely disagree on just about everything. You can be centrist and pro gun. You can even be left and pro gun as long as you are anti authoritarian. This is why primary races are heating up.
post-16154-0-74162900-1527265759.png

For instance why we argue immigration

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Edited by chicagoresident, 25 May 2018 - 09:27 PM.


#62 TomKoz

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:24 PM

^^^^

You vote Democrat in Illinois you get continued corruption, continued fiscal irresponsibility, continued loss of guns rights. PERIOD!
Stay Alert ... Stay Alive !!

#63 sightsaligned

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:32 PM

I have never posted here before, but I wanted to comment that some of the sentiments I've seen in this thread have given me real hope. I have seen multiple posters talking about the importance of gun rights as a civil right, the fact that this civil right applies to all people, and the fact that it is time for this issue to transcend political parties. This is the direction we need to keep moving. A hostile argument with an anti-gun person is, as far as I'm concerned, an argument lost. A stable future will only be possible if we can engage these folks in real conversations, and help them understand the reality of gun ownership and gun regulations.

 

When I speak with an anti-gun person I tell them (honestly) from the beginning: "I am prepared to change my opinions, because I'm interested in finding the truth. I would love to have this discussion with you if you are also interested in finding truths and are willing to change your opinions to achieve that."

 

This thread has given me hope that there are many other people out there who are prepared to enter a conversation in this way. I think that's good news, because I think it gives us our best chance for the future.

 

Just my 0.02!


Edited by sightsaligned, 25 May 2018 - 09:34 PM.


#64 lowhouse5

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:37 PM

Todd, I'm glad you're on our side.
We've never met but I hope someday we can shoot together or share a drink or meal.
I don't have the patience or personality to do what you do but I want you to know that you are greatly appreciated.

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#65 tricolor

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 09:52 PM

The Republicans are mistaken and really drinking the Kool Aid on this one.

The fact is, the numbers for November indicate that this "blue wave" isn't going to happen, and Republican polling numbers are very good, when you look at things objectively. Their voter registration numbers far exceed those of the Democrats, and minority support for Trump and his policies have reached into the "danger zone" for the Democrats (they need upwards of 90% minority support in order to win elections, and they don't have that). November will be rough for them.

Also recall that even Democratic pollsters have admitted that Trump's numbers are purposely being suppressed to make him look less popular that he really is. One of Bill Clinton's close friends, a big-time Democratic pollster, said that we "have to add at least ten points to Trump's published poll numbers to see the real level of support, maybe even fifteen points." The idea of his numbers are "in the tank" are erroneous and fake news.

There is also the coming Inspector General report from IG Michael Horowitz. It's expected to lay bare the utter criminality of the federal government of the previous administration, and will have widespread consequences for them and the Democrats. This is why Schiff, Feinstein, Clapper, Brennan and others are publicly panicking: the release of this report will not be kind to them. And don't forget John Huber, the special prosecutor assigned to handle the IG cases, and his grand jury, empaneled a few months back. Once the public learns of the utter criminality of the previous administration and the Democrats in general, things won't go well for them.

This push for gun control is also a panicked response by the gun control movement to some painful realities they'd really not like to face. They're losing this war. More and more people refuse to believe the lie that guns are the problem here. Many more people are buying and carrying guns. Trump is appointing a record number of pro-gun justices. Most states have since Heller loosened their laws, not the other way around. Like the Democrats, everything's turning against them, and they're flailing helplessly, desperate to save their failing movement.

I understand the concern here in Illinois, but I also think we need to consider everything in light of these facts. The Illinois GOP need to grow some balls and realize that caving to a failing political movement isn't a good strategy. They need to ignore them and refuse to compromise. That's how you respond to these sort of things, by not legitimizing the illegitimate party on the other side. Mockery is also a good policy.

 

This is something that cannot be repeated often enough.  I remember 15 to 20 years ago, when gunshops were few and far between, and the selection of weapons was very limited.  It was rare to find an AR or an AK, and the clientele were at those shops was older and set in their fudd ways.  Now it seems like there are more shops and ranges, and the clientele is younger, more diverse and largely female.  Also, you can't go to a shop without tripping over ARs and other weapons that you would never see before.  CCW is here to stay, and people are more energized and aware then ever before.  People like their rights, and being self reliant and responsible.  I believe that the antis are grasping at straws, trying to put the horse back in the barn.  Look how low they have sunk, putting children at the forefront of their movement.  Youth that doesn't know any better, and doesn't represent the state of mind of the youth across the country.  They need to act quickly following a tragedy, as they lose support within weeks when people get a chance to think things over rationally.

 

I think that there has been a sea change, and the tide has turned.  If there wasn't a ready and willing market, none of this would have changed.  People were p***** about the AWB of 94, and look at what has happened since the sunset.  I like to think that people are seeing the antis for who they are, a group that doesn't trust the public yet thinks that government can provide safety.  Clear thinkers see this for what it is.  The media loves to try and make the anti movement into something it isn't, that is, trying to make it seem that the majority of Americans want gun control.  I see the opposite, with my own eyes.  The national battle has been against the antis for decades now.  While there might be ups and downs, I believe that the market shows the true nature of the debate.  



#66 TomKoz

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:24 PM

Democrat politicians care more about illegal immigrants than African Americans!!!!

Push THAT narrative!!

Lowest African American unemployment EVER under Donald Trump / Republican!!

Get the African American vote OFF the plantation!!

Get them to vote Republican!!!

Gun and other issues will be resolved !!
Stay Alert ... Stay Alive !!

#67 evilbrownrifle

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 11:18 PM

 

We need to organize with all like minded groups. Similarly we can put together a proactive pro 2nd Amendment facts and education presentation that can be used in outreach to a range of audiences - village boards, religious institutions, civic groups, etc.
We need a community organizer. Yikes, did I just say that?

 

I know.  But that's the case. We have a lot of power at the grass roots level but little organization. Time is a b**** for productive folk. I'm busy as heck. But we have to start making the time. If we are smart we can figure out how to automate such a process, on the cheap. I'm not sure we need a huge effort to get ahead. The Moms are not all that. We have a lot of individual drive we just need to get our own community together.



#68 chicagoresident

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 11:33 PM

I have never posted here before, but I wanted to comment that some of the sentiments I've seen in this thread have given me real hope. I have seen multiple posters talking about the importance of gun rights as a civil right, the fact that this civil right applies to all people, and the fact that it is time for this issue to transcend political parties. This is the direction we need to keep moving. A hostile argument with an anti-gun person is, as far as I'm concerned, an argument lost. A stable future will only be possible if we can engage these folks in real conversations, and help them understand the reality of gun ownership and gun regulations.
 
When I speak with an anti-gun person I tell them (honestly) from the beginning: "I am prepared to change my opinions, because I'm interested in finding the truth. I would love to have this discussion with you if you are also interested in finding truths and are willing to change your opinions to achieve that."
 
This thread has given me hope that there are many other people out there who are prepared to enter a conversation in this way. I think that's good news, because I think it gives us our best chance for the future.
 
Just my 0.02!

Welcome and stick around. The site founders are very active in the Illinois legal system. Everyone here disagrees on a lot of political views but we all agree on an unwavering support of the 2nd ammendment for everyone.

#69 crufflesmuth

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 10:18 AM

A few points here,

 

1. As someone living in NE Illinois, I feel more often than not suburban gun owners are ignored and left out of the equation when it comes to legislation and standing up for our rights. I get most of the lobby is rural, but people need to understand that those same issues apply more so here. You might never set foot in Chicago, or this part of the state, but the political power lies here and the reason most people support this BS is because there is a lack of education and outreach. There is a healthy portion of the population in Cook County, specifically in the NW Suburbs that is working class, that does sit on the fence for issues like this. There need to be more ranges doing education and outreach, even if its just a presentation. The Achilles heel of Cook County is the NW Burbs, plenty of people are not rabidly and institutionally anti-gun here and if more was done I'm sure it would make the difference.

 

2. If you're going to say a piece of legislation is a violation of due process, you need to explain why and how. Additionally, you need to be getting in the face of the Chicago news media and have a presence up in NE Illinois, otherwise people just turn the news off because Springfield seems like a distant place for those not in the loop. We also need to shift the arguments from oh banning scary weapons won't make a difference, to showing people that the government is banning and restricting ownership of private property and telling people how their weapon should or should not look and what functionality it can be. Frame it as limitation of choice, restriction of private property and also as being racist. The only people the AWB is enforced against, are gang members, and per the dogmas of our times, certain segment(s) are singled out by these laws. 

 

3. Expand and use social media. Twitter and FB is great, but having a YT Channel and doing live-streams would set us ahead of the curb. 

 

4. If the other side is going to be filing BS bills, so should we. We should be filing all sorts of awesome BS pro bills all the time, every time. Clog the system.

 

5. Stop assuming people under 30 are dumb, state-craving authoritarians that don't know shoe-lacing from cursive writing. Not twenty-something is a social justice warrior, we might not agree on everything socially, but a healthy amount of us exist wanting to preserve the constitution.


Edited by crufflesmuth, 26 May 2018 - 10:23 AM.


#70 kevinmcc

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 11:13 PM

It's why we can both be considered "extreme right wing radicals" but completely disagree on just about everything.


What is "extreme right wing" exactly?

You ask a left winger and they will try to tell you Nazis and Klan, both who are authoritarian socialists, i.e. far left.

Democrats describing Nazis and Klan is only a con game to discredit Republicans and Libertarians.

It is absolutely amazing to listen to people like Richard Spencer self-describe themselves as alt-right, then you listen to them speak about their political views, and you realize they are not any different than other far leftists.

True libertarians are alt-right or far right.

They reject social and government regulations such as identity politics and special protections.

They support a true free society where all citizens are treated equally under natural and man made law.

They support free and fair trade.

You do not get that with most other political ideologies.


By the way, your paradigm one libertarians and economics is all wrong, and not surprisingly since it was created to push left wing propaganda.
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#71 steveTA1983

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 11:46 PM

A few points here,
 
1. As someone living in NE Illinois, I feel more often than not suburban gun owners are ignored and left out of the equation when it comes to legislation and standing up for our rights. I get most of the lobby is rural, but people need to understand that those same issues apply more so here. You might never set foot in Chicago, or this part of the state, but the political power lies here and the reason most people support this BS is because there is a lack of education and outreach. There is a healthy portion of the population in Cook County, specifically in the NW Suburbs that is working class, that does sit on the fence for issues like this. There need to be more ranges doing education and outreach, even if its just a presentation. The Achilles heel of Cook County is the NW Burbs, plenty of people are not rabidly and institutionally anti-gun here and if more was done I'm sure it would make the difference.
 
2. If you're going to say a piece of legislation is a violation of due process, you need to explain why and how. Additionally, you need to be getting in the face of the Chicago news media and have a presence up in NE Illinois, otherwise people just turn the news off because Springfield seems like a distant place for those not in the loop. We also need to shift the arguments from oh banning scary weapons won't make a difference, to showing people that the government is banning and restricting ownership of private property and telling people how their weapon should or should not look and what functionality it can be. Frame it as limitation of choice, restriction of private property and also as being racist. The only people the AWB is enforced against, are gang members, and per the dogmas of our times, certain segment(s) are singled out by these laws. 
 
3. Expand and use social media. Twitter and FB is great, but having a YT Channel and doing live-streams would set us ahead of the curb. 
 
4. If the other side is going to be filing BS bills, so should we. We should be filing all sorts of awesome BS pro bills all the time, every time. Clog the system.
 
5. Stop assuming people under 30 are dumb, state-craving authoritarians that don't know shoe-lacing from cursive writing. Not twenty-something is a social justice warrior, we might not agree on everything socially, but a healthy amount of us exist wanting to preserve the constitution.


Couldn’t have said it better myself. Our side really needs to flood the legislator like the antis do.

#72 chicagoresident

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 09:53 PM

It's why we can both be considered "extreme right wing radicals" but completely disagree on just about everything.

What is "extreme right wing" exactly?You ask a left winger and they will try to tell you Nazis and Klan, both who are authoritarian socialists, i.e. far left.Democrats describing Nazis and Klan is only a con game to discredit Republicans and Libertarians.It is absolutely amazing to listen to people like Richard Spencer self-describe themselves as alt-right, then you listen to them speak about their political views, and you realize they are not any different than other far leftists.True libertarians are alt-right or far right.They reject social and government regulations such as identity politics and special protections.They support a true free society where all citizens are treated equally under natural and man made law.They support free and fair trade.You do not get that with most other political ideologies.By the way, your paradigm one libertarians and economics is all wrong, and not surprisingly since it was created to push left wing propaganda.
I won't be satisfied with the 2nd ammendment until the government is replaced by privately owned industrial military corporations that would happily sell me actual military parity at competing prices (tanks, planes, bombs). All maintained by cheap immigrant labor, tax free, without paperwork, and paid with gold bullion or cryptocurrency issued and backed by those military suppliers (Austrian replacing Keynsian economics).

So yeah, my views are probably what you'd call right wing extrimist.

As you said and I agree the left and their identity politics made National Socialists like Spencer and his crew of tiki torch burning poor white people wanting handouts by virtue of being white "the right". And Spencer took it and ran with it by claiming they were the alt right.

NatSocs want guns for themselves just like they want welfare for themselves, but they don't want others to have guns or welfare.

I don't think most libertarians can really define what libertarian means so I take it with a grain of salt. I find most libertarians are volantary socialists including the "official" National Libertarian party. Their existence within the context of this thread serves our purpose because they should be on the 2nd Ammendment side, even if the clowns running the party aren't. But I might not share the same social views and values.

My realpolitik views, who I vote, who I donate, who pays me, and what I invest in are also entirely different then my theoretical views so it really doesn't matter other then message board or beer talk.

For instance I would vote for a program that allows hunting rifles to be bought with food stamps if it actually was on a ballot, despite wanting to abolish the welfare system entirely in theory. It doesn't make me a socialist, just a gun voter. https://www.ammoland.../#axzz5GlA0BS60

Edited by chicagoresident, 27 May 2018 - 11:03 PM.


#73 kevinmcc

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 12:25 AM

I find most libertarians are volantary socialists including the "official" National Libertarian party.


Don't mistake volunteerism and charity as socialism. One is a personal choice, the other is government mandated.
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#74 Arch1GLK

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 09:04 AM

Time for a basic understanding of all the comments to date.

A better grasp of "words have meaning". Use words more wisely such as:

 

MSM- is not main stream, call it as it is "Biased Media"

 

No more use of the word "assault"...when using a word to describe a firearm, use the correct generic term (rifle,pistol etc.) mention do you say an assault car-suv-pick-up in an accident, or an assault knife?

 

No more "loophole"... there is only "criminal use of a weapon".

 

List goes on, but choose words more wisely and the narrative changes.

 

As for us busy common folk as was mentioned earlier, maybe the emphasis should be towards better organizing efforts where the real power is held...Cook County. I-GOLD may have worked in years past in Springfield but instead of pro-march efforts, possibly targeting state reps local offices with 4-5K 2A proponents. (target the individual not the institution).

 

In the end, we all must do our small part to protect the 2A.... yes even here in Illinois.

 

my .02



#75 BigJim

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 09:57 AM

What ever happened to the 2A rally we used to have in Chicago? We haven't held one in years. Maybe it's time to bring it back. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
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#76 Lou

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 12:09 PM

What ever happened to the 2A rally we used to have in Chicago? We haven't held one in years. Maybe it's time to bring it back.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Great idea. You organize it and I’ll be sure to attend, as I did all the past ones.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. -  George Orwell

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#77 mab22

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 09:50 PM

Todd,
I just wanted to say Thank you for what you are doing and that it's appreciated.

You are not failing us, it's the majority of Illinois congress that is failing the LAW ABIDING CITIZENS in SO many ways, as well as the praetorian guard media.

Edited by mab22, 28 May 2018 - 09:53 PM.


#78 steveTA1983

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 10:42 PM

Todd,
I just wanted to say Thank you for what you are doing and that it's appreciated.
You are not failing us, it's the majority of Illinois congress that is failing the LAW ABIDING CITIZENS in SO many ways, as well as the praetorian guard media.


+1

#79 BobPistol

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 07:45 AM

Democrat politicians care more about illegal immigrants than African Americans!!!!

Push THAT narrative!!

Lowest African American unemployment EVER under Donald Trump / Republican!!

Get the African American vote OFF the plantation!!

Get them to vote Republican!!!

Gun and other issues will be resolved !!

 

Illegal aliens are not immigrants.

 

Illegal alienage is about enriching cronies with cheap labor.

 

Too bad republicans are AWOL on this issue - they're complicit with the leftocrats on this issue. 


The Second Amendment of the Constitution protects the rest.




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