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Weapon concealment within a vehicle?


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There are many ways to 'conceal' in a vehicle. Law even says 'mostly' and Todd has weighed on that one when it comes to OWB carry.

 

Why the heck would 'mostly' allow for partial exposure - or easy discovery if carefully inspected - of a firearm carried OWB, but not a firearm in a vehicle that when an observer walks past cannot be seen (concealed), but if you shine a light in and inspect closely you can spot it. Does not really make sense that there is a different standard, just because of the vehicle.

 

There is precedent on what 'concealed' means in a vehicle. Just ask anyone that's been convicted of having drugs 'concealed' in a vehicle to find out all the various places stuff is considered 'concealed'. Quite eye-opening.

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If it has to be concealed in a vehicle, then why did they write it that way? Why not just "on or about your person concealed or mostly concealed from public view"? Wouldn't that also cover "in a vehicle"? What does the "or on or about one's person in a vehicle" add to the definition?

 

 

This is a "concealed" carry law about "concealed" carry. You cannot separate clause B from the preceding parts. It's complicated just like having to combine state, federal, and conservation statutes all together or looking at the preemption clauses and combining them.

 

 

The way it's worded, it implies that "within a vehicle" is "mostly concealed from the public". I don't think it has to be concealed from other passengers in the vehicle.

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This is a "concealed" carry law about "concealed" carry. You cannot separate clause B from the preceding parts. It's complicated just like having to combine state, federal, and conservation statutes all together or looking at the preemption clauses and combining them.

 

 

The way it's worded, it implies that "within a vehicle" is "mostly concealed from the public". I don't think it has to be concealed from other passengers in the vehicle.

 

 

That was not the understanding when the bill was being crafted, debated, and voted on. With your interpretation, the gun could be laying on the seat in open view because the vehicle "mostly conceals" it. That is not our interpretation and we will continue to caution folks to keep the firearm concealed in the general meaning of the term 'concealed' = hidden from view.

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I think common sense tells you that concealed means concealed. When in my car, if I have it on the seat next to me, there is a hat, or something else obstructing the view so as to keep it concealed. Or, I keep it in my bag, ready to go with the flap open so I can get to it easily. If I have it in the holster in between the console and the seat, a hat is placed over it. I echo another poster here that I am not willing to see what the reaction from a LEO would be if he walked up and saw a weapon in plain view. I want to inform them I am carrying first (my perogative) BEFORE they see the weapon. This is just what I do. Everyone else has a right to do what they do.

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Concealed or mostly concealed. I firearm just on a seat under a hat etc won't be concealed for long under the hat or newspaper or other item once you slam on your brakes or you are in an accident. It is not under your control when flying around the vehicle. This has been debated before in at least one other thread and it appears it wasn't resolved because it is being debated again.
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Concealed or mostly concealed. I firearm just on a seat under a hat etc won't be concealed for long under the hat or newspaper or other item once you slam on your brakes or you are in an accident. It is not under your control when flying around the vehicle. This has been debated before in at least one other thread and it appears it wasn't resolved because it is being debated again.

I don't drive with it on the seat. Only when stopped and on my laptop in the car. When in motion, it is secured. So...still concealed.

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This is a "concealed" carry law about "concealed" carry. You cannot separate clause B from the preceding parts. It's complicated just like having to combine state, federal, and conservation statutes all together or looking at the preemption clauses and combining them.

 

 

The way it's worded, it implies that "within a vehicle" is "mostly concealed from the public". I don't think it has to be concealed from other passengers in the vehicle.

 

 

That was not the understanding when the bill was being crafted, debated, and voted on. With your interpretation, the gun could be laying on the seat in open view because the vehicle "mostly conceals" it. That is not our interpretation and we will continue to caution folks to keep the firearm concealed in the general meaning of the term 'concealed' = hidden from view.

 

 

Molly,

 

The rub here is that the legislature does not define a concealed firearm in the traditional use of the word. So Illinois definition of concealed does not = "hidden from view", It is any of two conditions. 1) Concealed, or 2) Mostly concealed. In summary the acceptable statutory conditions are:

 

1) Concealed = hidden from view

2) Mostly concealed = not hidden from view

 

The safe route would be to accept your current view and play it safe or change the statute for more clarity but risk a more restrictive result than the current field of play.

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The definition of "Concealed firearm" from 430 ILCS 66 is:

 

 

"Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun carried on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public or on or about a person within a vehicle.

 

If the verbiage "completely or mostly concealed from view" was necessary for the "on or about a person" part, why is it NOT necessary for the "on or about a person within a vehicle" part"? In English, that definition does not require "completely or mostly concealed from view" when "on or about a person within a vehicle".

If "concealed or mostly concealed from view" is to be assumed for the "on or about a person within a vehicle" part, why was it SPECIFICALLY used for the "on or about a person" part?

I'm not talking "what a copy may or may not do" or "how to be better safe than sorry", I'm talking "what the law actually states."

Here is how I think that sentence reads (and I don't think I am misinterpreting it):

"Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun carried:

on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public

-or-

on or about a person within a vehicle

If I am wrong, please show me how? If someone was "part of the process" and are using "intent", "meant", "felt", "liked" or any other reasoning... I think that is not helpful. What we now have is a law and words have meaning.

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Get your windows tinted so people can't see in. Problem solved

Indeed. Only problem is how to handle it if/when pulled over. Concealed until you wind down the window means not concealed when the office approaches.

 

Also, tinted front windows beyond some level is illegal. Not dark enough to qualify I would think.

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Get your windows tinted so people can't see in. Problem solved

Indeed. Only problem is how to handle it if/when pulled over. Concealed until you wind down the window means not concealed when the office approaches.

 

Also, tinted front windows beyond some level is illegal. Not dark enough to qualify I would think.

My fronts are tinted exactly to the legal limit and you van only see in at the right angle, or if the sun is shining in through the windshield

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Here is how I think that sentence reads (and I don't think I am misinterpreting it):

"Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun carried:

on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public

-or-

on or about a person within a vehicle

If I am wrong, please show me how? If someone was "part of the process" and are using "intent", "meant", "felt", "liked" or any other reasoning... I think that is not helpful. What we now have is a law and words have meaning.

 

I read it the same way you do, but others disagree.

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Here is how I think that sentence reads (and I don't think I am misinterpreting it):

 

"Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun carried:

on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public

-or-

on or about a person within a vehicle

 

If I am wrong, please show me how? If someone was "part of the process" and are using "intent", "meant", "felt", "liked" or any other reasoning... I think that is not helpful. What we now have is a law and words have meaning.

 

 

 

I read it the same way you do, but others disagree.

And yet, nobody can provide a reason why...

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Here is how I think that sentence reads (and I don't think I am misinterpreting it):

"Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun carried:

on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public

-or-

on or about a person within a vehicle

If I am wrong, please show me how? If someone was "part of the process" and are using "intent", "meant", "felt", "liked" or any other reasoning... I think that is not helpful. What we now have is a law and words have meaning.

 

I read it the same way you do, but others disagree.

 

That seems pretty straightforward to me. It is the definition the legislature gave to the term "concealed firearm" and they could have just as easily said "on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public within a vehicle" but they did not.

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So the way you guys are reading it is that the firearm is concealed or mostly concealed on your person but once you enter a vehicle it changes to open carry?

 

Just trying to clarify what you are saying.

From my point of view, I argue that the shell of the vehicle itself provides sufficient concealment to satisfy the 'mostly concealed' intent of the law.

 

NOT open carrying. Just, not a requirement to double-conceal.

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So the way you guys are reading it is that the firearm is concealed or mostly concealed on your person but once you enter a vehicle it changes to open carry?

 

Just trying to clarify what you are saying.

The definition clearly states "on or about a person in a vehicle."

 

The fact that the definition specifically calls out concealed when not in a vehicle and clearly left it out when inside the vehicle, it is clear that inside your vehicle is a different situation.

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So the way you guys are reading it is that the firearm is concealed or mostly concealed on your person but once you enter a vehicle it changes to open carry?

 

Just trying to clarify what you are saying.

I am not necessarily saying open carry although we laymen may look at it that way. All I am saying is we shouldn't wrap our heads around what our (or the laymen) definition of the word concealed means. The law defines "concealed firearm" and that is the definition that matters. If the law said a concealed firearm means a firearm that is taped to my forehead then it makes no difference whether it is visible or not. Theoretically the legislature could have defined a concealed firearm as a firearm that is carried openly in a holster on the hip. It makes no difference what Webster says the meaning of "concealed" is.

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That's the way I interpret it. The vehicle provides a level of concealment. Why else would there be a differentiation for in vehicle carry of "on or about ones person", instead of simply adding "or while in a vehicle" at the end of the definition. Sent from S4 Echoe ROM

 

 

Because the law previously prohibited transporting a loaded firearm in a vehicle. The "on or about a person in a vehicle" was to make clear a person can not only have a loaded, concealed firearm on their person as they go about their way, they can also continue to do so in their vehicle.

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I don't see how anyone could grammatically interpret that as "concealed or mostly concealed" applying to inside the vehicle.

 

Then there is the usage of "mostly concealed" which the vehicle could be doing by default. Although the definition is not requiring it.

The legislature has defined "concealed firearm" as

 

"Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun carried:

(1) on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public

-or-

(2) on or about a person within a vehicle

(numbers in parenthesis added for clarity)

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Seems to me that this part of the law needs to be clarified to either include concealed in the vehicle or not. I will say that I am not willing to be the test case and I am sure all of you aren't either. As someone else stated, I do believe that if this goes to trial, the state would lose just purely based on the language. But....after thousands of dollars, etc...I just can't see it. No judging if anyone does "open carry" in their vehicle, just be careful.

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That's the way I interpret it. The vehicle provides a level of concealment. Why else would there be a differentiation for in vehicle carry of "on or about ones person", instead of simply adding "or while in a vehicle" at the end of the definition. Sent from S4 Echoe ROM

 

 

 

 

Because the law previously prohibited transporting a loaded firearm in a vehicle. The "on or about a person in a vehicle" was to make clear a person can not only have a loaded, concealed firearm on their person as they go about their way, they can also continue to do so in their vehicle.

The law previously prohibited transporting a loaded firearm at all, not just exclusive to transporting in a vehicle.

 

The way the law reads, assuming a loaded firearm must always be concealed or mostly concealed, the vehicle provides that level of necessary concealment. The law, as written, does not state that it must be concealed within the vehicle. It doesn't even hint at it. If you choose to call that "open carry," you're welcome to see it that way.

 

No disrespect, but I don't understand why you're so adamant about this which, to me, comes across the same as members here who want the alcohol wording changed to zero tolerance, or advocate obeying non-compliant signs because they assume the intent is what matters.

 

I say what's written in black and white is what matters, and I will never understand members of this forum who want to change things so that they're more restrictive.

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"Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun carried on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public or on or about a person within a vehicle.

 

Pretty cut and dry. The word "concealed" is separated by the word "or" before it speaks about a vehicle.

 

Nobody is "open carrying" in their vehicle because the vehicle provides the concealment from view of the public.

 

If the intention were otherwise, the definition would be as follows:

 

"Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun carried on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public or on or about a person within a vehicle completely or mostly concealed from view of the public.

 

 

Sent from S4 Echoe ROM

 

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