18 replies to this topic

[jfd287]

Hey guys, i  need help building an argument for our cause.    I recently bought a plat of land at a campground. the lot is deeded to me and my wife,  I would presume I could CCW and open carry (although I would not, open carry due to the proximity of other lots in the campground and not knowing how my "neighbors" would feel about me open carrying,  The main issue I want to address is that every public building is posted.  I feel that I  am within my rights to have a gun on or about my person while I am on my property, I would just like  information to build an argument as to why all the public buildings are posted, This a  campground  where you own your lot,  there is as association which oversees the recreational facilities and manage other aspects of the grounds,  I am trying to gather information before I present an informal or formal inquiry to the board of directors. 

[DomG]

The very simple argument is that those who intend to do harm will have zero regard for a window sticker, or the law. But if the board, or a majority of the board are anti-gun, I wish you good luck. Logical arguments fight an uphill battle against those with strong emotions and who possess a "feeling of safety" is paramount.

Edited by DomG, 03 September 2018 - 07:39 PM.

[Craigcelia]

Because they never know when you may need to protect yourself and family. Share this, what happened at my campground just last week:

https://www.classich...nty-campground/

I was there when this occurred.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Edited by Craigcelia, 03 September 2018 - 07:47 PM.

[THE KING]

I live in an area where there are a lot of camp grounds / recreation clubs. Everyone happens to be posted. I personally know quite a few of the board members of some of the clubs and I have inquired about the postings.

What it comes down to is that the insurance companies have mandated to these clubs that they either post or they cancel their insurance policies.

What I find hypocritical is that the majority of these clubs have gun ranges. And the majority of the board members that I have talked to don't want to post the GFZ sign.

Good luck in your efforts but I think it will be a lost cause.

KING

[madcow1007]

Do you actually own the buildings along with the other owners? If you have an ownership interest, the posting may be irrelevant to you.

[Gamma]

You're asking what rationale to use on irrational people.

[RoadyRunner]

Do you actually own the buildings along with the other owners? If you have an ownership interest, the posting may be irrelevant to you.

This likely applies to HOA Clubhouses as well. Just sayin’

[ScottFM]

I live in an area where there are a lot of camp grounds / recreation clubs. Everyone happens to be posted. I personally know quite a few of the board members of some of the clubs and I have inquired about the postings.

What it comes down to is that the insurance companies have mandated to these clubs that they either post or they cancel their insurance policies.

What I find hypocritical is that the majority of these clubs have gun ranges. And the majority of the board members that I have talked to don't want to post the GFZ sign.

Good luck in your efforts but I think it will be a lost cause.

KING

I've seen gun ranges posted for no CCW! 

 

hilarious! 

[jfd287]

Maybe I’ll talk to a board member one on one and find the reason for the posting. I wasn’t aware of a possible mandate by insurance companies. I do believe the will be an uphill battle. Thanks for the link to the recent occurrence at the LaSalle campground Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[quackersmacker]

You're asking what rationale to use on irrational people.

Bingo!

[soylentgreen]

Signs do come down. There is a big box church nearby. My cousin attends. He once asked if I'd like to visit his church. I checked on the Posted! app. I declined and I told him why. He said the issue is "complicated". Most likely there are anti-gun people in the decision-making process. I'm also certain there are many Christian people who believe a church is not a place for weapons. Some people may even believe that houses of worship are prohibited by statute. I've even corrected more than one license holder on that point.

In any case, the church took the signs down shortly after the Southerland Springs church murders. Apparently someone realized it does not make sense to be sitting ducks.

 

As far as the campground, if they added the signs after you bought, I could understand your distress a little more. Why did you buy knowing the situation was not congruent to your lifestyle? I'm not blaming you, but why put yourself in that predicament? I routinely avoid doing business with and entering into relations with entities that restrict my ability to carry.

I think the main point to dispute signs is to simply say what the sign means. It does not mean "no guns". It means "no licensed concealed carry of loaded guns". It's also important to understand who is likely to abide by the signs and who is not. The licensed and trained concealed carrier with no ill intent will obey the sign. The average bloodthirsty maniac will not. So, the question is...what good is the sign doing vs. the potential harm? As far as I can see, it does no good at all and the risk of potential harm is minuscule. As far as I'm aware, no Illinois licensee has accidentally shot themselves or another person in any public setting.

 

I think these are the best arguments.

As for insurance companies, insurance companies are in the business of managing risk. So, they must be aware that concealed carriers present almost no risk at all. If they are opposed to carry, it's a political or ideological opposition, not one based on actuarial tables. I can think of a million ways someone might be injured or killed at a campground that are much more likely to occur than an accidental shooting by a licensed concealed carrier. Are they going to ban swimming? Boating? Hiking? Maybe put up a sign that says "no running"?

[jfd287]

Thanks for the replies. They all make great sense to me. At least I can carry on my own property while I’m there. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Smallbore]

I believe the insurance excuse is a bogus lie. I'd call them out on it.
You might ask the board members why they have no problem with convicted felons in their building with weapons (no such forbidden sign) but have a problem with fellow law abiding citizens.
Don't wait for an answer. Hopefully they will think about the question before offering a response at a later time.
Don't put them on the defensive.
Give them something small to chew on for time being.

[THE KING]

I believe the insurance excuse is a bogus lie. I'd call them out on it.
You might ask the board members why they have no problem with convicted felons in their building with weapons (no such forbidden sign) but have a problem with fellow law abiding citizens.
Don't wait for an answer. Hopefully they will think about the question before offering a response at a later time.
Don't put them on the defensive.
Give them something small to chew on for time being.

I guess you can believe what you want. But a couple of the board members and the board president of one of the local rec clubs happens to be friends of our family. None of the above mentioned friends wanted to post.

It was either post the GFZ sign or have their insurance rates raised to the point that they couldn't afford the insurance or get cancelled.

I was just at one of the clubs and I know for a fact that their sign is non compliant and the president knows it but doesn't care.

[Tango7]

There are also some people and groups that believe that the "Pursuant" sign is a bar to un-permitted criminals carrying on their property, failing to realize that the signs so labeled do nothing to stop the dirtbags.

[Smallbore]

I believe the insurance excuse is a bogus lie. I'd call them out on it.
You might ask the board members why they have no problem with convicted felons in their building with weapons (no such forbidden sign) but have a problem with fellow law abiding citizens.
Don't wait for an answer. Hopefully they will think about the question before offering a response at a later time.
Don't put them on the defensive.
Give them something small to chew on for time being.

I guess you can believe what you want. But a couple of the board members and the board president of one of the local rec clubs happens to be friends of our family. None of the above mentioned friends wanted to post.
It was either post the GFZ sign or have their insurance rates raised to the point that they couldn't afford the insurance or get cancelled.
I was just at one of the clubs and I know for a fact that their sign is non compliant and the president knows it but doesn't care.

Time to look for another insurance agent that isn't anti.

[DomG]

There are also some people and groups that believe that the "Pursuant" sign is a bar to un-permitted criminals carrying on their property, failing to realize that the signs so labeled do nothing to stop the dirtbags.

I don't believe that for a second. They know criminals will always bring in guns to commit crimes.

What they fear is "John Wayne" types, like you and me, shooting up the place randomly, in our search for fame, when a criminal pulls a gun OR that we would shoot up the place when someone accidentally bumps into us.

They fear us, because we carry. They don't understand why we do so, except for bravado. Baseless fears.

Edited by DomG, 06 September 2018 - 08:53 PM.

[soylentgreen]

 

I don't believe that for a second. They know criminals will always bring in guns to commit crimes.

What they fear is "John Wayne" types, like you and me, shooting up the place randomly, in our search for fame, when a criminal pulls a gun OR that we would shoot up the place when someone accidentally bumps into us.

They fear us, because we carry. They don't understand why we do so, except for bravado. Baseless fears.

 

 

I'd like to believe this. It would actually mean the people who put up these signs (or who insist on putting up the signs) are somewhat less misguided than I've previously thought.

If this were true, I'd say they're just uninformed rather than totally delusional.

I honestly think most people who voluntarily put up the signs just hate the idea of guns in their place of business or other area under their control. They just think guns are icky and if they can keep guns as far away from themselves as possible, they'd just feel more comfortable. I think they honestly believe that the sign "can't hurt". Maybe some people will disregard it...but some won't. And I guess they think that's making a positive impact in their own lives somehow. Guns = bad as far as they're concerned. I think they may know that Illinois issues concealed carry licenses and they simply don't trust the common man to have a gun around them. Maybe they don't know. Honestly, if you deal with the public everyday, would you blame them? The average person is a total and complete idiot. A reckless moron. Have you seen them drive? They don't realize, I think, that the average licensee is not the same as the average citizen. I think they're also not likely to think much about how the sign really is nothing more than a paper tiger. 

[jfd287]

I’d hope to see Lee county join the ranks of sanctuary counties. Since that is where the campground is. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro