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Known legal ramifications on modifying CCW internals?

CCW legal ramifications

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#1 mblackheart

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:43 PM

Are there any known cases in Illinois (Cook County especially) about modifications such as lighter trigger pull, extended slide release, extended magazine, etc that has negatively affected a legal concealed carry holder? Asking because I'm debating modifying my Glock 43



#2 RoadyRunner

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:46 PM

No problems, unless you are forced into a situation that you need to use it. In which case, the opposing attorney is going to make all kinds of claims in your court appearance. I wouldn’t do it.

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#3 tkroenlein

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:35 PM

I have yet to see a case where anyone was convicted of a crime based on modifications.

HOWEVER, you must understand that if you are in a "questionable" shoot, a prosecutor can use these mods in court. I absolutely believe that a prosecutor would abandon a murder charge to get a negligent discharge/manslaughter conviction.

Look up George Zimmerman's court room footage, and watch the part where the particulars of his firearm are examined; then ask yourself if you want to be sitting there when the forensic guy says "no, the trigger was out of factory specifications."

You really don't know how a justified use of force may flesh itself out, who will be testifying on your behalf, and what their motivations might be. Truth is in short supply these days. Besides, a bad trigger is nothing a thousand rounds of practice won't cure.


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#4 TRJ

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 05:15 AM

I think mods would only be a factor in a case where a negligent discharge caused injury/death/damage. For an intentional defensive shooting it shouldn't matter what mods you have...mods or not you found yourself under attack and defended yourself with what you had available.
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#5 sctman800

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 07:30 AM

Lots of practice is probably the best trigger mod you can do. All my handguns have stock triggers and that includes my IDPA revolver and I don't have a problem with trigger pull or light primer strikes. Jim.
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#6 kevo88

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:15 AM

I like Massad Ayoob's advice on the subject. He notes in his book that modifications to the pistol, particularly ones that make the operation better, are fine as long as you stay away from safety mechanisms and trigger weight modifications. I'd have no hesitations with installing sights, mag releases, mag floorplates, or anything like that. The trigger shoe would probably also be fine, as long as you're using oem parts. (eg. putting a G17 shoe on a G19).

 

John Monroe, firearms defense attorney, did a pretty good interview earlier this week on reddit, and was also asked the infamous question. Paraphrasing, his answer was basically that if you have a good shoot, pistol mods won't make it a bad shoot. 

 

A lot of this does not apply to civil court though, where it's much more of a free for all.  



#7 Smallbore

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:48 AM

The prosecutor will try anything hope a jury will buy it. A few years back in Arizona a teacher was convicted in a self defense shooting. The prosecution was succesful claiming his carrying a 10mm indictated guilt.
Make sure you understand "AOJ" then be prepared to defend it in court.

#8 Mick G

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:55 AM

No problems, unless you are forced into a situation that you need to use it. In which case, the opposing attorney is going to make all kinds of claims in your court appearance. I wouldn’t do it.

 

This ^

 

I would be very wary about any mod to a trigger, most people think that a SD shooting isn't going to be a big deal but if you get indicted by a Grand Jury, you are basically just another common criminal trying to stay out of prison. A States Attorney with an agenda is going to make your life a living heck. In the eyes of the law there is no good shoot, just a criminal investigation. If you decide to pull that trigger you had better have a good answer to every question especially in a courtroom. Kevo88 makes a good point, go on YouTube, watch Massad Ayoobs videos and listen to what he says about AJOP.  He knows what he is talking about.



#9 bmyers

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:57 AM

To answer the original OP question, the answer is no, not aware of any court cases. 


Edited by bmyers, 06 December 2017 - 09:57 AM.


#10 Windermere

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:31 AM

I searched for this same subject and found nothing in Illinois. I was concerned with the same situation. Living in a very liberal part of Illinois, I have not made any mods to the function of my carry weapon. I just don't want to give them any kind of extra ammo in court to make an argument. I have stippled my frame and i even second guess that after the fact.
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#11 lockman

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:18 PM

I like Massad Ayoob's advice on the subject. He notes in his book that modifications to the pistol, particularly ones that make the operation better, are fine as long as you stay away from safety mechanisms and trigger weight modifications. I'd have no hesitations with installing sights, mag releases, mag floorplates, or anything like that. The trigger shoe would probably also be fine, as long as you're using oem parts. (eg. putting a G17 shoe on a G19).

 

John Monroe, firearms defense attorney, did a pretty good interview earlier this week on reddit, and was also asked the infamous question. Paraphrasing, his answer was basically that if you have a good shoot, pistol mods won't make it a bad shoot. 

 

A lot of this does not apply to civil court though, where it's much more of a free for all.  

 

12 lbs trigger pull out of the box then means dropping it to 5 lbs is unethical?


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#12 mic6010

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:32 PM

The prosecutor will try anything hope a jury will buy it. A few years back in Arizona a teacher was convicted in a self defense shooting. The prosecution was succesful claiming his carrying a 10mm indictated guilt.
Make sure you understand "AOJ" then be prepared to defend it in court.

That sounds like bull sutff. Got a link to the story or any information ? I don't believe it.


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#13 papa

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:52 PM

I had a spring kit installed on my XDs .45 . Stock the trigger pull was not consistent  and was very heavy.  I am not worried about it being used in court against me should I have to use it in a DGU situation.



#14 mic6010

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:54 PM

As has been noted by others, this argument against not "modding" your carry gun is based more in fiction than reality. You hear it said a lot but nobody can ever site a case in which a successful prosecution was attained against someone who was otherwise legally justified based solely on a modified weapon. Simply modifying your carry gun is not enough to paint you as guilty. Persecutors wish it was that easy.

However, as also noted, it can and will be brought up in court as a form of character assassination. But that's just standard practice in a case like that. They are gonna go through your whole life and do that same thing so your modified gun is probably the least of your worries if you're on trial for shooting someone.

Personally that small concern is not enough for me to leave my carry gun stock if it means I'm at a disadvantage when it comes to defending myself. I want to have the best gun possible to defend myself with. The end.


Edited by mic6010, 06 December 2017 - 01:56 PM.

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#15 seanc

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 02:40 PM

 

I like Massad Ayoob's advice on the subject. He notes in his book that modifications to the pistol, particularly ones that make the operation better, are fine as long as you stay away from safety mechanisms and trigger weight modifications. I'd have no hesitations with installing sights, mag releases, mag floorplates, or anything like that. The trigger shoe would probably also be fine, as long as you're using oem parts. (eg. putting a G17 shoe on a G19).

 

John Monroe, firearms defense attorney, did a pretty good interview earlier this week on reddit, and was also asked the infamous question. Paraphrasing, his answer was basically that if you have a good shoot, pistol mods won't make it a bad shoot. 

 

A lot of this does not apply to civil court though, where it's much more of a free for all.  

 

12 lbs trigger pull out of the box then means dropping it to 5 lbs is unethical?

 

 

Unethical?  Or do you question if that would that put you in legal jeopardy?  Glocks have multiple stock trigger weights available, so a 5lb trigger would still be stock, although may not be how you purchased your firearm.  Hard to knock that in court, civil or criminal.


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#16 kevo88

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 04:37 PM

 

I like Massad Ayoob's advice on the subject. He notes in his book that modifications to the pistol, particularly ones that make the operation better, are fine as long as you stay away from safety mechanisms and trigger weight modifications. I'd have no hesitations with installing sights, mag releases, mag floorplates, or anything like that. The trigger shoe would probably also be fine, as long as you're using oem parts. (eg. putting a G17 shoe on a G19).

 

John Monroe, firearms defense attorney, did a pretty good interview earlier this week on reddit, and was also asked the infamous question. Paraphrasing, his answer was basically that if you have a good shoot, pistol mods won't make it a bad shoot. 

 

A lot of this does not apply to civil court though, where it's much more of a free for all.  

 

12 lbs trigger pull out of the box then means dropping it to 5 lbs is unethical?

 

 

I wouldn't consider it unethical at all, unless that trigger modification could be proved as the main reason someone was shot. I'd imagine that I'd be harder to convince than the average juror though. 

 

I would consider the insanity defense on the basis of buying a handgun with a 12lb trigger  :laugh:

 

In all seriousness though, I think a trigger job, done right with quality parts is most likely fine. Heck, you can get a Glock trigger down to around 4lbs with oem parts even. Now on the flip side, if you were an early adopter of the S&W Sigma and did the pen spring trigger fix, then accidentally light one off into little Susie's leg on a sympathetic squeeze, you might be in some hot water. 



#17 kevo88

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 04:41 PM

 

The prosecutor will try anything hope a jury will buy it. A few years back in Arizona a teacher was convicted in a self defense shooting. The prosecution was succesful claiming his carrying a 10mm indictated guilt.
Make sure you understand "AOJ" then be prepared to defend it in court.

That sounds like bull sutff. Got a link to the story or any information ? I don't believe it.

 

 

That guy was Harold Fish. They tore that poor man apart. The pistol caliber, loaded condition of the pistol while in his vehicle, even his firearm collection at home was all used to paint him as a gun nut looking for an excuse to use one. Combine it with a biased judge, and we got a law abiding citizen who picked up a murder charge. Thankfully it was eventually overturned. 



#18 chicagoresident

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 05:07 PM

Realize that the Kate Steinle case was dismissed due to the prosecution not knowing the Sig was a dual action/single action.

The prosecutor argued the trigger was too heavy to accidentally discharge so it must of been intentional.

The defense argued that the Sig could be cocked in single action mode, where it would of had a "hair pin trigger".

I've heard of that argument used successfully other times to absolve guilt to the point that if your going to "accidently" shoot someone your better off modifying the trigger.

I've yet to hear the trigger modification go the other way.

There was the Arizona cop http://www.thetrutha...t-him-in-court/who had the dust cover inscription of "your ******" used against him.

So I guess it could go both ways. Your more likely to get screwed in a negligent discharge if you've made the modifications yourself. But I'm of the school of thought that most people that "accidently" discharge a firearm into someone else's vital organs probably just have a really good lawyer.

Edited by chicagoresident, 06 December 2017 - 05:12 PM.


#19 Smallbore

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 05:40 PM

The prosecutor will try anything hope a jury will buy it. A few years back in Arizona a teacher was convicted in a self defense shooting. The prosecution was succesful claiming his carrying a 10mm indictated guilt.
Make sure you understand "AOJ" then be prepared to defend it in court.

That sounds like bull sutff. Got a link to the story or any information ? I don't believe it.

My only link is to my memory. This trial made the national news for a couple years. The public out cry over the injustice prompted Arizona legislature to over haul the self defense statute. I di not remember the details. They thought they worded the new public act to be retriactive to helo the defendant but the judge would not accept it. A very interesting case.
You might want to be better informed because something bs.

#20 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 06:08 PM

 

 

The prosecutor will try anything hope a jury will buy it. A few years back in Arizona a teacher was convicted in a self defense shooting. The prosecution was succesful claiming his carrying a 10mm indictated guilt.
Make sure you understand "AOJ" then be prepared to defend it in court.

That sounds like bull sutff. Got a link to the story or any information ? I don't believe it.

My only link is to my memory. This trial made the national news for a couple years. The public out cry over the injustice prompted Arizona legislature to over haul the self defense statute. I di not remember the details. They thought they worded the new public act to be retriactive to helo the defendant but the judge would not accept it. A very interesting case.
You might want to be better informed because something bs.

 

 

Here is the information about the Harold Fish case.


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#21 sctman800

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 07:36 PM

   About five or six years ago I was on a jury for a shooting, no one killed but injured.  Without going into the details the handgun was never recovered so no testing of function or action type.  There was some discussion about how a semi-auto handgun functions.  I was the only person on the jury that had any knowledge of firearms so I can understand how a lawyer could come out with a lot of BS and snow the jury.   Jim.


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#22 chislinger

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:32 PM

I've modified both the safety and the trigger on my PX4 which is my EDC. However, even though I eliminated the safety and it's now decocker-only that only turns it from a Type F into a Type G, both of which are factory offerings. Likewise I installed a Beretta competition trigger, the very same trigger found on the PX4 Compact Carry model. So overall it's still a configuration offered by the Beretta factory.
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#23 Mick G

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 06:15 AM

The common misconception is that a self-defense shooting that is completely justified is not a major deal. That seems to be a tone on here, I did this or that BUT it won't come into play. The problem arises the second that you squeeze the trigger. When the Police show up it's not to make a call on whether the shooting was justified or not, its to investigate a possible criminal case. The PD will not have the say in whether you are actually charged, don't be surprised if someone from the States Attorneys office shows up at the scene. 

 

After your shooting a few things will happen quickly. The PD will take your gun, you will be handcuffed and likely searched and you will get thrown into the back of squad car. The police will ask you for your side of the story and investigate the scene. You will likely be taking a ride to the PD. You will be put into an interrogation room and (hopefully) if refuse to answer any questions until you speak with counsel you will get to sit in a jail cell.

 

This is where the States attorney comes in. Your attorney should be showing up and either asking if you are being charged or are free to go. If you are charged bail arrangements will be made. Figure on at least 12 hours in police custody after a shooting. The FUN is just beginning.

 

To condense this you are now going to be dealing with a lot of courtroom time if you are charged. If not you will be dealing with a lot of civil courtroom time. A States Attorney is going to have a complete report on your firearm. If they are on the ball they will ask about any modifications to the firearm, the meaning of "Zombie Killer" on your slide and so forth. This whole thing is quite the big deal. The biggest deal you are likely to face in your life.

 

It's not like the PD shows show up, the person or persons who you shot had 80 previous arrests for violent crimes, the police are not going to pat you on the back and say "Good Job". You are basically a suspect until the evidence is weighed. If charged you are now a Defendant.

 

In either the criminal or civil portion of your case the gun is going to waved around quite a bit in front of the judge and or jury. You might be asked very specific questions under oath to undermine your credibility. A example would be "I am aware that this firearm came with what is called a magazine disconnect safety and yet after examination this was found out by the crime lab to not be the case, yes or no?" They will then show how the gun is now capable of firing w/o a magazine. Does that have anything to do with the specifics that one or two crackheads tried to rob you at gunpoint? Not in the least. It is a tactic to undermine your credibility.

 

The point of all of this is most people think OK I shot two people who tried to rob me and were armed. I'm a law abiding citizen. I have nothing to worry about. That is not the case. You could have witnesses that end up putting doubt on your innocence. Everything you said, did and any evidence will be used to drag you through the mud. You might actually be found guilty and be sentenced to prison or not. My logic is do not give the criminal justice system any more evidence against you.

Do not modify your fire control group in any way.

 

The best part is if you are found not guilty then the civil case starts. The burden goes from "beyond a reasonable doubt" to 50.1%. If you are sued for millions and lose, you owe that judgment. A lot of people think that just because it's a clean shoot they are OK. No it's just the beginning of very long drawn out battle for your freedom and money. The last thing you need is a firearms expert testifying against you that according to the serial number this was a PX4 model type F but has been modified into a type G and has had a competition trigger installed. "Mr. Chislinger why did you modify your firearm"?  Was it to make killing someone easier, Yes or No? "Well I" , YES or NO?

Your answer is going to be limited to Yes or No and of course you are going to say NO. The problem is they just put a little more doubt into the jury who just wants to get back to their lives because they couldn't get out of jury duty. You doing 10 or 15 years could depend on a cranky jury.

 

I personally have a few guns that have modifications to them. They are for competition shooting only. I would never carry a gun that was modified in any way except for maybe a different set of grips. When you start modifying triggers and safeties and even if a gunsmith did it and you have the paperwork and the gunsmith to back you up, you are just asking for more trouble.

 

To go back to the OP I don't know of any cases in Illinois but are willing to chance that you will be the first one?


Edited by Mick G, 07 December 2017 - 06:19 AM.


#24 Mr. Fife

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:16 AM

The prosecutor will say anything he or she wants. "Did you clean and oil your gun so it can kill people faster?"
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#25 chicagoresident

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:55 AM

The prosecutor will say anything he or she wants. "Did you clean and oil your gun so it can kill people faster?"

Exactly. It doesn't matter what's modified or not. Even stock they will call out your choice of gun.

If you were defending yourself in a self defense shooting with a stock gun that are carried by police departments they will cite cases of police officers squeezing off extra rounds under stress due to the "hair pin trigger" of a factory glock, Sig, etc. This could be damming if you shoot the threat and shoot the threat's unarmed "non threatening" accomplice.

Again, referencing the Kate Steinle case, they even argued the gun had a higher risk of "accidental" discharges citing public police ND's.

Any sighting system, stock or not, will be called into question in relation to the distance from you the threat was, to argue that they may not of been a threat at that distance.

Do you really want to carry hardball ammunition because your wise choice of JHP's will be called evil black talons by the prosecutor?

It's really a tactical question if a modification, ammo choice, gun choice, sighting/optics, etc. will help you defend yourself better. Obviously "kill em all" on your grips isn't giving any performance gains and will be used against you.

It's pretty much damned if you do damned if you don't so make sure your lawyer is knowledgeable on the functioning of firearms and can mount a proper defense. Most lawyers are not knowledgeable on guns and most do not have credible witnesses on call, so choose wisely.

Edited by chicagoresident, 07 December 2017 - 09:56 AM.


#26 Mick G

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:20 AM

 

The prosecutor will say anything he or she wants. "Did you clean and oil your gun so it can kill people faster?"

Exactly. It doesn't matter what's modified or not. Even stock they will call out your choice of gun.

If you were defending yourself in a self defense shooting with a stock gun that are carried by police departments they will cite cases of police officers squeezing off extra rounds under stress due to the "hair pin trigger" of a factory glock, Sig, etc. This could be damming if you shoot the threat and shoot the threat's unarmed "non threatening" accomplice.

Again, referencing the Kate Steinle case, they even argued the gun had a higher risk of "accidental" discharges citing public police ND's.

Any sighting system, stock or not, will be called into question in relation to the distance from you the threat was, to argue that they may not of been a threat at that distance.

Do you really want to carry hardball ammunition because your wise choice of JHP's will be called evil black talons by the prosecutor?

It's really a tactical question if a modification, ammo choice, gun choice, sighting/optics, etc. will help you defend yourself better. Obviously "kill em all" on your grips isn't giving any performance gains and will be used against you.

It's pretty much damned if you do damned if you don't so make sure your lawyer is knowledgeable on the functioning of firearms and can mount a proper defense. Most lawyers are not knowledgeable on guns and most do not have credible witnesses on call, so choose wisely.

 

 

In a earlier post I made reference to something that happened when I was much younger.

 

"In 1990 I personally saw the effects of a negligent discharge that sent a .308 bullet right through a friend of mines chest, killing him instantly. His eyes rolled up into his head before he hit the ground. Another friend was the one who was putting his safety on and the rifle just went off. His finger was not on the trigger."

 

Even though it was a ND and the some of the officers KNEW about the Remington's 700 issues with it just going off, they held my friend for 10 hours, took sworn statements from the two of us who witnessed it and interrogated my friend for hours who was putting the safety on when the rifle just went off. It wasn't until they got the report back that the crime lab was able to duplicate the ND and the gun was not modified in any way that he was absolved of any criminal charges. He was still sued by my deceased friends wife and she also sued Remington who settled out of court. The bullet was never recovered, it went through my friend and then a wall to the outside.

 

I guess my point is he could have been charged criminally if the report had come back differently. It still sticks with me to this day, it was a very f***** up situation. My friend didn't even try and fight the civil suit, his homeowners paid out the maximum of the policy and since we were all buddies my deceased friends wife didn't go for the multi million dollar payday. I have no idea what she got from Remington.



#27 chicagoresident

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:56 AM

The prosecutor will say anything he or she wants. "Did you clean and oil your gun so it can kill people faster?"

Exactly. It doesn't matter what's modified or not. Even stock they will call out your choice of gun.
If you were defending yourself in a self defense shooting with a stock gun that are carried by police departments they will cite cases of police officers squeezing off extra rounds under stress due to the "hair pin trigger" of a factory glock, Sig, etc. This could be damming if you shoot the threat and shoot the threat's unarmed "non threatening" accomplice.
Again, referencing the Kate Steinle case, they even argued the gun had a higher risk of "accidental" discharges citing public police ND's.
Any sighting system, stock or not, will be called into question in relation to the distance from you the threat was, to argue that they may not of been a threat at that distance.
Do you really want to carry hardball ammunition because your wise choice of JHP's will be called evil black talons by the prosecutor?
It's really a tactical question if a modification, ammo choice, gun choice, sighting/optics, etc. will help you defend yourself better. Obviously "kill em all" on your grips isn't giving any performance gains and will be used against you.
It's pretty much damned if you do damned if you don't so make sure your lawyer is knowledgeable on the functioning of firearms and can mount a proper defense. Most lawyers are not knowledgeable on guns and most do not have credible witnesses on call, so choose wisely.
 
In a earlier post I made reference to something that happened when I was much younger.
 
"In 1990 I personally saw the effects of a negligent discharge that sent a .308 bullet right through a friend of mines chest, killing him instantly. His eyes rolled up into his head before he hit the ground. Another friend was the one who was putting his safety on and the rifle just went off. His finger was not on the trigger."
 
Even though it was a ND and the some of the officers KNEW about the Remington's 700 issues with it just going off, they held my friend for 10 hours, took sworn statements from the two of us who witnessed it and interrogated my friend for hours who was putting the safety on when the rifle just went off. It wasn't until they got the report back that the crime lab was able to duplicate the ND and the gun was not modified in any way that he was absolved of any criminal charges. He was still sued by my deceased friends wife and she also sued Remington who settled out of court. The bullet was never recovered, it went through my friend and then a wall to the outside.
 
I guess my point is he could have been charged criminally if the report had come back differently. It still sticks with me to this day, it was a very f***** up situation. My friend didn't even try and fight the civil suit, his homeowners paid out the maximum of the policy and since we were all buddies my deceased friends wife didn't go for the multi million dollar payday. I have no idea what she got from Remington.
The ****** up thing is modifications sometimes help in a cases like this. If the rifle wasn't a Remington 700 (Walker trigger) and trigger work was performed by a gunsmith the outcome would of been the same, minus the payoff from the manufacturer. A lot of negligent discharge cases are dismissed as accidents because of modified triggers, not despite them.

The law sometimes protects the guilty and punishes the innocent, but there is just not enough case law that show gun functionality modifications or ammo choice hurt the defendent in self defense cases. Or at least anymore then a stock gun and factory ammo.

Plenty of case law, including the recent Kate Steinle case that actually show having a lighter trigger or a gun that fires with no trigger at all help you in negligent discharge cases.

It comes down to two things, did you intentionally pull the trigger (self defense/homicide) or did you accidentally pull the trigger/discharge with no trigger pull. Trigger pull weight will not hurt you in one case, unsafely modified or from the factory guns will help you in the second case, unless you are the armorer or manufacturer.

Edited by chicagoresident, 07 December 2017 - 11:57 AM.


#28 thobart

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:18 PM

This is all about the drama:

 

The states attorney is going to say all kinds of bad things about anything you do in order to get a conviction.  It does not matter what they say it matters what a jury believes.  This is a function of what the states attorney says and what your lawyer says. You have no control over this whatsoever.  You are trying to prepare for a test without having any idea on what the test is about.  If you even look at all of the things Mas brings up there is a strategy to how he does things that varies from case to case.

 

So look here are the known facts:

 

There is very little to any evidence that any modifications to firearms has had any real effect on a court case.

 

A gun with a extremely heavy trigger is hard to hit things with (ask the NYPD about the NYC glock trigger and look at the hit statistics)

 

You are the person he has the decision to make about mods to your gun everything in this thread is for the most part opinion

 

I have made the choice to make is possible to get decent hits stabbing the trigger hard while point shooting (the most likely use case I will have for a defensive firearm)

 

 

Nothing good ever happens once the gun comes out.  It is a matter of less bad things happening.  If you take this attitude you will be far better off.  You cant prepare for a violent encounter you can only train to react better to it.

 

You are not the police.  You are not responsible for protecting everyone (even the police are not).  Make the best choices you can and live with them.  by the way all of my defensive guns are between 4 and 5 lbs.



#29 JTHunter

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:10 PM

What about taking into consideration mods made for a "senior citizen"?

 

An elderly relative of mine was having trouble cocking the hammer on their SP-101 (.38 Sp.) and even MORE trouble pulling the trigger in DA mode.  A gunsmith would not DO the work but did tell me what to do.  The coil spring in the butt was shortened by 3-4 turns, reducing the almost 30 lb. DA pull to a more manageable 10 lbs.

It is still hard for this relative but at least they can use the gun again.

 

I defy a prosecutor to go after a person in their late 80s for making it easier to protect themselves.


“We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.” - - Abraham Lincoln

“Small minds adhere to the letter of the law; great minds dispense Justice.” - - S. C. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

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#30 soundguy

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:35 PM

This is all about the drama:

 

The states attorney is going to say all kinds of bad things about anything you do in order to get a conviction.  It does not matter what they say it matters what a jury believes.  This is a function of what the states attorney says and what your lawyer says. You have no control over this whatsoever.  You are trying to prepare for a test without having any idea on what the test is about.  If you even look at all of the things Mas brings up there is a strategy to how he does things that varies from case to case.

 

So look here are the known facts:

 

There is very little to any evidence that any modifications to firearms has had any real effect on a court case.

 

A gun with a extremely heavy trigger is hard to hit things with (ask the NYPD about the NYC glock trigger and look at the hit statistics)

 

You are the person he has the decision to make about mods to your gun everything in this thread is for the most part opinion

 

I have made the choice to make is possible to get decent hits stabbing the trigger hard while point shooting (the most likely use case I will have for a defensive firearm)

 

 

Nothing good ever happens once the gun comes out.  It is a matter of less bad things happening.  If you take this attitude you will be far better off.  You cant prepare for a violent encounter you can only train to react better to it.

 

You are not the police.  You are not responsible for protecting everyone (even the police are not).  Make the best choices you can and live with them.  by the way all of my defensive guns are between 4 and 5 lbs.

 

 

These are all good thoughts from thobart.

 

That a prosecutor will rip you apart for using a gun in self defense that has been modified so that you can shoot better is the art of folklore.


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