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HR 38 Reciprocity at RISK (HINT: fix-NICS)


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#31 OldMarineVet

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 07:29 AM

ISRA and IC, do you have a position on "the FIX NICS Bill?"  Can you please confirm it's bill number? I'm still not certain what the  bill number is that's be debated. Please help.  Thank you



#32 kwc

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 08:28 AM

I'm still not certain what the  bill number is that's be debated. Please help.  Thank you


The House version of the bill is H.R. 4477. Read it here:

https://www.govtrack.../hr4477/text/ih

It is identical to H.R. 4434.

Edited by kwc, 05 December 2017 - 08:33 AM.

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#33 kwc

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 08:30 AM

The Senate version is S.2135: https://www.govtrack.../115/s2135/text
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

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#34 OldMarineVet

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 09:00 AM

Thank you very much, kwc

#35 kevinmcc

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 09:08 AM

ISRA and IC, do you have a position on "the FIX NICS Bill?"  Can you please confirm it's bill number? I'm still not certain what the  bill number is that's be debated. Please help.  Thank you


My understanding is FIX NICS is going to be amended to include all kinds of conditions to disqualify gun purchasers.
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#36 OldMarineVet

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 09:23 AM

NRA Article

State Attorneys General Back National Reciprocity

AGs: Will not result in an increased risk of crime.

Fairfax, Va.— Today, H.R. 38, the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act, gained support from a coalition of America’s highest-ranking law enforcement officers. Twenty-four* attorneys general from across the country signed a letter spearheaded by Missouri Attorney General Josh Hawley supporting this common sense legislation.

The additional support for Concealed Carry Reciprocity follows House Judiciary Committee approval of H.R. 38. A full House vote is expected soon.

“America’s highest-ranking law enforcement officers understand that law-abiding citizens should be able to exercise their fundamental right to self-defense while traveling across state lines without fear of unknowingly breaking the law. The NRA applauds these attorneys general for supporting this important legislation,” said Chris W. Cox, executive director, National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action.

The letter states that H.R. 38 is a much-needed solution to a problem facing gun owners and poses no threat to public safety. “The exercise of Congress’s power is particularly warranted in this case because too many states refuse to allow law-abiding visitors to carry concealed firearms. These states leave people without any real option for self-defense. Allowing concealed carry across state lines will not result in an increased risk of crime, as those states that have reciprocal concealed-carry agreements have not encountered any significant safety issues.”

H.R. 38 would eliminate the confusing patchwork of state laws that make it difficult for law-abiding gun owners to travel across the country with their firearms for personal protection. The Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act affirms that law-abiding citizens who are qualified to carry concealed firearms in one state can carry in other states that allow residents to do so.

A copy of the letter signed by attorneys general from Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma*, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming can be found here.


*Please note: an earlier version of this press release said 23 attorneys general and has since been updated with the recent addition of the Oklahoma attorney general who signed on after the original letter was posted

https://www.nraila.o...nal-reciprocity

Edited by OldMarineVet, 05 December 2017 - 09:23 AM.


#37 OldMarineVet

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 09:28 AM

ISRA and IC, do you have a position on "the FIX NICS Bill?"  Can you please confirm it's bill number? I'm still not certain what the  bill number is that's be debated. Please help.  Thank you


My understanding is FIX NICS is going to be amended to include all kinds of conditions to disqualify gun purchasers.

I share that concern. I'm hoping the example of Obama's executive order regarding Veteran's Administration and Trump's executive order to reverse it is fresh in the NRA's and our representatives' minds.

Edited by OldMarineVet, 05 December 2017 - 09:29 AM.


#38 cybermgk

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:20 AM

 

I'm still not certain what the  bill number is that's be debated. Please help.  Thank you


The House version of the bill is H.R. 4477. Read it here:

https://www.govtrack.../hr4477/text/ih

It is identical to H.R. 4434.

 

Now can someone translate this for a layman's eyes?


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#39 cybermgk

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 10:21 AM

 

ISRA and IC, do you have a position on "the FIX NICS Bill?"  Can you please confirm it's bill number? I'm still not certain what the  bill number is that's be debated. Please help.  Thank you


My understanding is FIX NICS is going to be amended to include all kinds of conditions to disqualify gun purchasers.

 

'understanding'?  Are you just prognosticating, or is that based on something concrete?


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#40 JDW

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:09 AM

Good morning folks, 

 

I've spent a few hours blowing up the phones of all the people I know who are much more in the loop than I am. The conclusion I came away with is pretty cut and dry. HR4477 is a full on old fashioned gun grab with lots of Sara Brady-ish style ideas in it. For those who are unaware of Mrs. Brady's views on taking guns away from citizens, I urge you to do some reading. The mere fact that Chuck and Nancy signed off on it speaks volumes. 

One of my calls was the to the NRA-ILA, to hear with my own ears that they are indeed supporting this bill. The explanation the gentleman gave me for their backing of HR4477 was so ill informed, I actually felt bad for him. I couldn't get angry with him, he's just doing his job. It is bothersome that NRA-ILA's phone reps are not more well versed in what they speak about. 

 

If these two bills are combined, and manage to pass, our best and last hope is that President Trump veto's it. Speaking of which, i was a frequent donor to the Trump Campaign. I wrote him a a hand written letter a month or so back. This past weekend, I received a letter back from him. Reading that letter has me convinced that he's on our side all the way. Of course, politics being what they are today, (in a constant state of flux) I have no way of knowing what will ultimately happen. In closing, essentially everything Tim (MAC) alerted us to last evening is 100% spot on. That's what i verified this morning. 

 

I called and wrote my reps already


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#41 capotwosix

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:09 AM

ISRA and IC, do you have a position on "the FIX NICS Bill?"  Can you please confirm it's bill number? I'm still not certain what the  bill number is that's be debated. Please help.  Thank you

My understanding is FIX NICS is going to be amended to include all kinds of conditions to disqualify gun purchasers.
I share that concern. I'm hoping the example of Obama's executive order regarding Veteran's Administration and Trump's executive order to reverse it is fresh in the NRA's and our representatives' minds.

As an NRA member I'm pretty ticked they're pushing so hard without making their members aware of 4474 possibly being attached to HR38. Just joined GOA two days ago as their stance is truly "no compromise, shall not be infringed" where the NRA plays politics; fills their pockets. I'm not jumping ship with the NRA just yet, but they've let us down before.

The problem is HR38 is such a popular bill that people may be overlooking how dangerous 4474 is to all gun owners. This is exactly what the Dems and RINOS are counting on. They think gun owners are fools and don't know any better. Don't forget their end goal is total confiscation. Before you say "paranoid", do some research. The facts are out there. Feinsteins quote about getting 51 votes is a good reference.
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#42 kwc

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:12 AM

JDW, can you point to the specific text in H.R. 4477 that imposes new restrictions on end-purchasers and owners of firearms?

Ive read it and only see reporting requirements and incentives for federal agencies and states to comply with existing requirements. The new restrictions may very well be in the current bill, but they arent obvious to me.

Edited to add: You referenced H.R. 4474. Is that a typo?


Edited by kwc, 05 December 2017 - 11:29 AM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#43 kwc

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:27 AM

JDW, sorry for the 4474 glitch—that was a different poster (capotwosix)


Edited by kwc, 05 December 2017 - 11:30 AM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#44 mauserme

    Eliminating the element of surprise one bill at a time.

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:30 AM

ISRA and IC, do you have a position on "the FIX NICS Bill?" Can you please confirm it's bill number? I'm still not certain what the bill number is that's be debated. Please help. Thank you

 
 
We haven't taken a position on H.R. 4477.
 
 
 

JDW, can you point to the specific text in H.R. 4477 that imposes new restrictions on end-purchasers and owners of firearms?

Ive read it and only see reporting requirements and incentives for federal agencies and states to comply with existing requirements. The new restrictions may very well be in the current bill, but they arent obvious to me.

Edited to add: You referenced H.R. 4474. Is that a typo?

 
 
Yes, it would be helpful if those who so strongly oppose the bill would provide specific reasons with reference to the actual language.  I understand emotion can sometimes run high, but no one should be expected to form an opinion on emotion alone.

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#45 JDW

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:32 AM

JDW, can you point to the specific text in H.R. 4477 that imposes new restrictions on end-purchasers and owners of firearms?

Ive read it and only see reporting requirements and incentives for federal agencies and states to comply with existing requirements. The new restrictions may very well be in the current bill, but they arent obvious to me.

Edited to add: You referenced H.R. 4474. Is that a typo?

 

 

First, yes, that was an obvious typo. Sorry about that. Second, no I can not point you to any specific text, (at this time)  but i may be able to soon. 


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#46 capotwosix

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:31 AM

JDW, sorry for the 4474 glitch—that was a different poster.


I'm referring to Fix NICS if 4474 is incorrect.
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#47 JDW

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:32 AM

@KWC, lol, I just assumed it was me with the TYPO. :)


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#48 kwc

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:38 AM

Second, no I can not point you to any specific text, (at this time)  but i may be able to soon. 

 

 

Thank you. I'm very interested in seeing and understanding the analysis.

 

I've learned through the years to never (or at least rarely) take such claims at face value without doing some level of independent analysis, and I encourage everyone else to do the same.


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#49 capotwosix

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:53 AM

Second, no I can not point you to any specific text, (at this time)  but i may be able to soon.

 
Thank you. I'm very interested in seeing and understanding the analysis.
 
I've learned through the years to never (or at least rarely) take such claims at face value without doing some level of independent analysis, and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

All the videos in this thread have some really good information from reliable sources that you can use to crosscheck from individual research. You'll have to do some digging through google seeing as they're extremely left and hide/burry pro 2A or general conservative ideals.

Basically it boils down to, have you lived a perfect life, never been in trouble, never seen a doctor for anything other than a checkup? Otherwise it could cause you to be denied your rights, put on a 60 day waiting period to buy a firearm while they "investigate", or even have your firearms confiscated. There is gun control plain and simple. I realize HR38 is popular and I want it too, but not at the cost of fix nics. Everyone's made mistakes and loosing or being denied of your firearms because of them is not good for anyone. I'm contacted reps and stated to support HR38 and oppose fix nics. Have them voted on seperatly or no deal. Anything Schumer, Pelosi and co. support is very bad. Now is the time to be on the offensive and not compromising. History shows pro2A supporters have never benifited from any form of compromise. Just my two cents, but I encourage everyone to do their research and make an informed opinion on what's important. Time is of the essence.
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#50 OldMarineVet

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:59 AM

capotwosix, when did the NRA "let us down before?"
 
FYI, here's Wayne LaPierre about NRA wanting the NCS system "fixed" if you haven't seen it. Not politics.

https://www.nratv.co...ckground-checks

Edited by OldMarineVet, 05 December 2017 - 12:09 PM.


#51 kwc

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 01:27 PM

All the videos in this thread have some really good information from reliable sources that you can use to crosscheck from individual research. You'll have to do some digging through google seeing as they're extremely left and hide/burry pro 2A or general conservative ideals.

 

 

I don't have an hour+ to watch the MAC video.

 

I did quickly scrub the video in the OP and the "Gun Gripes" video. Basically the argument is this: "More people will be denied, so the bill is bad."

 

True: More prohibited persons will be captured in the NICS database. That's the point--to ensure NICS captures more names of people that are already prohibited by Federal law. That's the bill, pure and simple.

 

We can argue the efficacy of background checks "until the cows come home." But as far as I can tell, this bill doesn't change much other than encouraging compliance with the existing framework.

 


Basically it boils down to, have you lived a perfect life, never been in trouble, never seen a doctor for anything other than a checkup? Otherwise it could cause you to be denied your rights, put on a 60 day waiting period to buy a firearm while they "investigate", or even have your firearms confiscated. .

 

 

Based on my reading of the bills, if the GCA (as currently amended) and NICS don't already do this, then the proposed bill won't do this, either. Please explain your logic. (Would prefer to hear from you--please don't point me toward more videos.)


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#52 capotwosix

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 02:10 PM

@kwc The fix nics is the Brady bill. The entire nics system removes due process. Ever had legal trouble? Even if someone's filed a report against you, without you knowing. Taking an anti-depressant prescribed from your doctor because the loss of a family member, or just getting through a rough patch in general? Prescbed medication for ADHD? Any type of domestic dispute no matter how far back? They can claim you mental defective or a domestic/violent criminal without due process. Also false positives causing you to wait 60 days.

Former military who seek help for PTSD will get flagged.

I'm a firm believer in "shall not be infringed" and removing someone's right to own a firearm without due process is a problem. National reciprocity was off the books since Vegas and out of no where it appears, the last second they try to sneak in fix nics with the backing of rinos, pelosi and schumer, and feinstein.

From GOA: https://gunowners.or...ert11172017.htm

Edited by capotwosix, 05 December 2017 - 02:12 PM.

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#53 mauserme

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 02:18 PM

@kwc The fix nics is the Brady bill. The entire nics system removes due process. Ever had legal trouble? Even if someone's filed a report against you, without you knowing. Taking an anti-depressant prescribed from your doctor because the loss of a family member, or just getting through a rough patch in general? Prescbed medication for ADHD? Any type of domestic dispute no matter how far back? They can claim you mental defective or a domestic/violent criminal without due process. Also false positives causing you to wait 60 days.

I'm a firm believer in "shall not be infringed" and removing someone's right to own a firearm without due process is a problem. National reciprocity was off the books since Vegas and out of no where it appears, the last second they try to sneak in fix nics with the backing of rinos, pelosi and schumer, and feinstein.

From GOA: https://gunowners.or...ert11172017.htm


Your argument and the GOA argument, then, is that NICS should be repealed. No argument here, just a suggestion that you look at the reality that NICS isn't going anywhere in the near future. No one in Congress is actively trying to accomplish that.
 


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#54 kwc

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 02:46 PM


I'm a firm believer in "shall not be infringed" and removing someone's right to own a firearm without due process is a problem.

 
No argument from me on this point! Due process is critical, and that is, in many cases, missing from NICS.
 
Agree with mauserme's statement above--the reality is that NICS isn't going away anytime soon.
 
I could still be swayed otherwise, but don't currently believe some minor adjustments around the edges of an existing program are terrible enough to completely throw away the chance at achieving National Reciprocity.
 
IMHO, keeping H.R. 4477 and H.R. 38 separate will result in passage of H.R. 4477 through both chambers. H.R. 38 will fail in the Senate by itself (and may very well fail even with H.R. 4477 attached.)

Edited by kwc, 05 December 2017 - 02:54 PM.

"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." - Galations 6:9 (NIV)

"If you can't explain it to a six-year old, you don't understand it yourself." - Albert Einstein (paraphrased)

#55 mauserme

    Eliminating the element of surprise one bill at a time.

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 02:58 PM

I'm a firm believer in "shall not be infringed" and removing someone's right to own a firearm without due process is a problem.


No argument from me on this point! Due process is critical, and that is, in many cases, missing from NICS.

Agree with mauserme's statement above--the reality is that NICS isn't going away anytime soon.

I could still be swayed otherwise, but don't currently believe some minor adjustments around the edges of an existing program are terrible enough to completely throw away the chance at achieving National Reciprocity.

IMHO, keeping H.R. 4477 and H.R. 38 separate will result in passage of H.R. 4477 through both chambers. H.R. 38 will fail in the Senate by itself (and may very well fail even with H.R. 4477 attached.)

In any case, you're going to get "Fix NICS" regardless.


I share your concerns.

The "better to forego reciprocity than accept both" argument ignores the forth possibility - Congress is going to address the NICS omissions with or without reciprocity.

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#56 OldMarineVet

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 03:05 PM

I'm a firm believer in "shall not be infringed" and removing someone's right to own a firearm without due process is a problem.

 
No argument from me on this point! Due process is critical, and that is, in many cases, missing from NICS.
 
Agree with mauserme's statement above--the reality is that NICS isn't going away anytime soon.
 
I could still be swayed otherwise, but don't currently believe some minor adjustments around the edges of an existing program are terrible enough to completely throw away the chance at achieving National Reciprocity.
 
IMHO, keeping H.R. 4477 and H.R. 38 separate will result in passage of H.R. 4477 through both chambers. H.R. 38 will fail in the Senate by itself (and may very well fail even with H.R. 4477 attached.)

Agreed. Any declared felony or mental illness without due process is unconstitutional. That's why I said in #37, "I'm hoping the example of Obama's executive order regarding Veteran's Administration and Trump's executive order to reverse it is fresh in the NRA's and our representatives' minds." Obama's executive order declared a Veteran, "mentally incompetent" if they just needed help understanding VA documentation. Trump reversed that executive order in shortly after Inauguration.

#57 kwc

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 03:05 PM

Looks like the House combined the two bills and will vote on them as a package.

https://amp.business...-senate-2017-12

Senator Chris Murphy insists this is dead on arrival in the Senate.

ETA: Sen Murphy wants these bills to be independent in the Senate. Any idea why? Of course: he knows Fix NICS will pass alone, and National Reciprocity will fail.

Edited by kwc, 05 December 2017 - 03:10 PM.

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#58 Tvandermyde

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:51 PM

the issue is that the anti-gunners are fuming becuase they will be in the trick bag of having to vote against the NICS bill so they will ge pummeled with mail and TV ads sayign they voted against fixing background checks and keeping guns out of the hands of the menatlly ill


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Posted 05 December 2017 - 08:27 PM

JDW, can you point to the specific text in H.R. 4477 that imposes new restrictions on end-purchasers and owners of firearms?
Ive read it and only see reporting requirements and incentives for federal agencies and states to comply with existing requirements. The new restrictions may very well be in the current bill, but they arent obvious to me.Edited to add: You referenced H.R. 4474. Is that a typo?

  

ISRA and IC, do you have a position on "the FIX NICS Bill?" Can you please confirm it's bill number? I'm still not certain what the bill number is that's be debated. Please help. Thank you
  We haven't taken a position on H.R. 4477.   

JDW, can you point to the specific text in H.R. 4477 that imposes new restrictions on end-purchasers and owners of firearms?Ive read it and only see reporting requirements and incentives for federal agencies and states to comply with existing requirements. The new restrictions may very well be in the current bill, but they arent obvious to me.Edited to add: You referenced H.R. 4474. Is that a typo?
  Yes, it would be helpful if those who so strongly oppose the bill would provide specific reasons with reference to the actual language.  I understand emotion can sometimes run high, but no one should be expected to form an opinion on emotion alone.


This I what I was looking to get as well.

#60 Hoffsoft

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 08:51 PM

the issue is that the anti-gunners are fuming becuase they will be in the trick bag of having to vote against the NICS bill so they will ge pummeled with mail and TV ads sayign they voted against fixing background checks and keeping guns out of the hands of the menatlly ill


That’s why you’re the words guy. When you say it like that, it makes me want to make popcorn and watch that sweet dem on dem fratricide. The other way to word that was probably too close to the “Getting scowled at by Molly” line. ;)




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