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HR 38 Reciprocity at RISK (HINT: fix-NICS)


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#1 capotwosix

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 02:37 AM

Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer are at it again! This is urgent and requires us to take immediate action before the vote on Tuesday. Abusing the popularity of national reciprocity, they are trying to sneak in unconstitutional legislation that is a direct attack on the 2nd amendment. This video articulates the issue. Please consider sharing and subscribing to help his channel grow. He is out there fighting for our rights at both state and national levels. 
 

 
I apologize if posting this video is against forums rules, but it's extremely urgent. 
 
Thanks.

Edited by mauserme, 03 December 2017 - 08:01 AM.
Edited Topic Title

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. - Thomas Jefferson

#2 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 05:12 PM

Really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Reciprocity sat idle for months and the nics fix passes committee in days, on the same day as reciprocity. "Horse trading", I called immediately.

Mark my words, if one passes so shall the other or neither shall pass.


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#3 ilphil

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 06:13 PM

My thought is that reciprocity scares the devil out of Pelosi & Co. so much that they are floating the NICS fix as a thinly veiled threat to keep HR 38 from moving forward. 

I think they would be very happy to see the NICS fix die if it meant reciprocity being stopped as well.



#4 kevinmcc

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 07:48 PM

We need to push H.R.38 as is, not amended.


Edited by kevinmcc, 03 December 2017 - 07:51 PM.

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#5 capotwosix

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 08:49 PM

We need to push H.R.38 as is, not amended.

Make sure to call/email your senators and reps telling them you don't want the fix nics part of HR 38


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. - Thomas Jefferson

#6 capotwosix

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 08:52 PM

Really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Reciprocity sat idle for months and the nics fix passes committee in days, on the same day as reciprocity. "Horse trading", I called immediately.

Mark my words, if one passes so shall the other or neither shall pass.

The lack of transparency is sicking. Feinstein, Pelosi, Schumer, RINOS, and the rest of the swamp are so out of touch with reality. "Do as I say, not as I do". Think they should be able to dictate how citizens of a free country live their lives. Absolutely despicable.


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. - Thomas Jefferson

#7 spec5

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 02:14 PM

This link says vote on Wednesday.

Foxnews reports concealed-carry bill picks up momentum, steams toward House floor.

The link to story wont copy.

The full House is set to vote on Wednesday. 

.....The bill also has support from Second Amendment advocacy groups like the powerful National Rifle Association.

However, Hudson acknowledges the bill has an uphill challenge in the Senate, considering opposition from Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., and Michael Bloomberg, the wealthy ex-New York mayor who purportedly is giving $25 million to the fight.

Edited by spec5, 04 December 2017 - 02:20 PM.

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#8 Jeffrey

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 03:01 PM

This link says vote on Wednesday.

Foxnews reports concealed-carry bill picks up momentum, steams toward House floor.

The link to story wont copy.

The full House is set to vote on Wednesday. 

.....The bill also has support from Second Amendment advocacy groups like the powerful National Rifle Association.

However, Hudson acknowledges the bill has an uphill challenge in the Senate, considering opposition from Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., and Michael Bloomberg, the wealthy ex-New York mayor who purportedly is giving $25 million to the fight.

The last line in your sentence is mind boggling to me.  An uphill challenge in the senate due to opposition from MINORITY LEADER, little upchuck.  If the R's have the majority, I would assume we are golden unless this is some funny voting like we dealt with the 71 supermajority BS.


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#9 OldMarineVet

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 03:18 PM

Just got this link from NSSF. Sounds like the "fixnics" bill they are talking about was written by Larry Keane of NSSF. I'll see if I can find a number.  SE Cupp interview where she says the NRA has endorsed both "fixncs" and National Reciprocity bills.



#10 spec5

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 03:19 PM

This link says vote on Wednesday.
Foxnews reports concealed-carry bill picks up momentum, steams toward House floor.
The link to story wont copy.
The full House is set to vote on Wednesday. 
.....The bill also has support from Second Amendment advocacy groups like the powerful National Rifle Association.
However, Hudson acknowledges the bill has an uphill challenge in the Senate, considering opposition from Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., and Michael Bloomberg, the wealthy ex-New York mayor who purportedly is giving $25 million to the fight.

The last line in your sentence is mind boggling to me.  An uphill challenge in the senate due to opposition from MINORITY LEADER, little upchuck.  If the R's have the majority, I would assume we are golden unless this is some funny voting like we dealt with the 71 supermajority BS.
That is a quote from the article not my sentences.
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#11 Jeffrey

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 03:34 PM

 

 

This link says vote on Wednesday.
Foxnews reports concealed-carry bill picks up momentum, steams toward House floor.
The link to story wont copy.
The full House is set to vote on Wednesday. 
.....The bill also has support from Second Amendment advocacy groups like the powerful National Rifle Association.
However, Hudson acknowledges the bill has an uphill challenge in the Senate, considering opposition from Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., and Michael Bloomberg, the wealthy ex-New York mayor who purportedly is giving $25 million to the fight.

The last line in your sentence is mind boggling to me.  An uphill challenge in the senate due to opposition from MINORITY LEADER, little upchuck.  If the R's have the majority, I would assume we are golden unless this is some funny voting like we dealt with the 71 supermajority BS.
That is a quote from the article not my sentences.

 

I caught that.  Sorry I didn't mean to come off as a finger pointer.  To my point, is there something more to the voting than just needing 51?


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#12 gunuser17

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 03:59 PM

I would think that it requires 60 votes under the senate rules to overcome a filibuster.



#13 stm

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 04:05 PM


 

 

This link says vote on Wednesday.
Foxnews reports concealed-carry bill picks up momentum, steams toward House floor.
The link to story wont copy.
The full House is set to vote on Wednesday. 
.....The bill also has support from Second Amendment advocacy groups like the powerful National Rifle Association.
However, Hudson acknowledges the bill has an uphill challenge in the Senate, considering opposition from Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., and Michael Bloomberg, the wealthy ex-New York mayor who purportedly is giving $25 million to the fight.

The last line in your sentence is mind boggling to me.  An uphill challenge in the senate due to opposition from MINORITY LEADER, little upchuck.  If the R's have the majority, I would assume we are golden unless this is some funny voting like we dealt with the 71 supermajority BS.
That is a quote from the article not my sentences.
 


I caught that.  Sorry I didn't mean to come off as a finger pointer.  To my point, is there something more to the voting than just needing 51?

In the US Senate, a cloture vote is required before debate on a bill can be stopped and the bill voted on. It only takes 51 votes to pass a bill in the Senate, but a cloture vote (to end debate) takes 60 votes.

Weird rules, but they were intended to keep the majority from running rough-shod over the minority.

yea everyone makes fun of the redneck till the zombies show up. . .


#14 Xwing

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 04:16 PM

Interesting.  So what is in the "Fix NICS" bill?  Is it good, bad, or neutral?


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#15 mauserme

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 04:55 PM

Interesting.  So what is in the "Fix NICS" bill?  Is it good, bad, or neutral?

 

Some people are concerned that rather than fixing NICS to include missing records, it will cause more delays and potentially disqualify people for things that shouldn't  matter (like unpaid traffic tickets, which is a stretch).  They'd prefer the two bills not be combined.

 

Others would prefer that NICS be done away with entirely.  Strengthening it goes against their hopes.

 

On the other hand. there's  also some thought that although reciprocity can pass the House on its own it will need some help in the Senate.  Fix NICS might be that help.

 

From a a practical point of view I think Fix NICS or something like it  is going to become law with or without reciprocity.  We've said for many years to enforce existing law, and Fix NICS is an effort to accomplish that without creating additional barriers.  And, as far as I know, it's supported by the NRA which will help it along.

 

To me, if getting rid of NICS was a viable option I'd prefer that too.  But getting rid of NICS isn't a real option so fixing it is kind of a non-issue to me, at least in the bill's current form.


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#16 press1280

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 05:18 PM

I would agree with this assessment. I believe it is an attempt to gain support (specifically in the Senate) to pass reciprocity. With all due respect to the Massie statement, it's not about winning Chuck Shumer's vote, it's about getting 8 Dems in the Senate who are in red states and are up for re-election in 2018.

Also, he mentions that "additional" people are going to be denied their rights. While there may be gltiches, exc., have there been cases where squeaky clean people are basically barred from purchasing? If so, why haven't they sued?



#17 OldMarineVet

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 05:54 PM

Just got this link from NSSF. Sounds like the "fixnics" bill they are talking about was written by Larry Keane of NSSF. I'll see if I can find a number.  SE Cupp interview where she says the NRA has endorsed both "fixncs" and National Reciprocity bills.

I'm guessing the "fixnics" House Bill is "H.R.4477 - Fix NICS Act of 2017." Introduced by 2 Texas Republicans. Reading the Text it seems to enforce agency compliance from original bill.

Still see 2 separate bills and no amendments to HR38.

Edited by OldMarineVet, 04 December 2017 - 05:55 PM.


#18 mauserme

    Eliminating the element of surprise one bill at a time.

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 07:18 PM

SAF issued this press release today:
 

FIX THE FIX NICS BILL WOULD MAKE LEGISLATION STRONGER, SAYS CCRKBA


BELLEVUE, WA When Congress considers legislation, possibly this week, to fix the National Instant Check System (NICS), it should also adopt amendments that will cut down on false positives and make other changes to prevent unwarranted denials, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms said today.

Were calling it the Fix the Fix NICS bill, said CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb, because these amendments will make this legislation better.

There are four suggested amendments that Gottlieb favors. One would require that NICS use all descriptors provided in conducting background checks because too many people get denied who shouldnt, he said. Another amendment would add language requiring the Attorney General to take such actions as may be necessary, including withholding funds, to prevent a State imposing regulations that result in a Federal Firearms Licensee charging for a background check pursuant to section 922(t) of title 18, United States Code, and to penalize a State that does so.

An important third tenet would require the Attorney General to annually submit a written report to Congress that contains a detailed review of all background checks conducted by the NICS system where people were initially denied from acquiring a firearm and then also those whose cases were deemed not eligible for prosecution, including a review of the process for making the determinations, each step included in that process, and a statistical analysis of the age, race, gender, and national origin of, or any other identifying information provided on a Firearm Transfer Record form (ATF Form 4473) about, the persons about whom the erroneous determinations were made.

A fourth amendment requires that all the numbers be disaggregated by age, race and gender. Gottlieb believes people are presently more likely to be denied if they are a minority.

As it is now, Gottlieb explained, this Fix the Fix NICS language will cut down on false positives. It also reduces the likelihood of imbalance.

Its important for gun owners to contact their congressional representatives and encourage them to consider the Fix the Fix NICS bill when it comes up for consideration, he concluded.


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#19 capotwosix

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 07:26 PM

Fix NICS is a terrible bill and there is some "trickery" going on with NRA right now. They're pushing everyone to support HR-38 without informing them 4474 will most likely be added to it. Fix NICS is a disaster.
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#20 Patriot Millennial

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 07:57 PM

Fix NICS is a terrible bill and there is some "trickery" going on with NRA right now. They're pushing everyone to support HR-38 without informing them 4474 will most likely be added to it. Fix NICS is a disaster.



Can you elaborate on how it's is a disaster?

#21 capotwosix

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 08:28 PM

 

Fix NICS is a terrible bill and there is some "trickery" going on with NRA right now. They're pushing everyone to support HR-38 without informing them 4474 will most likely be added to it. Fix NICS is a disaster.



Can you elaborate on how it's is a disaster?

 


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#22 Patriot Millennial

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 08:38 PM

Not to be rude but, I really am not in a position to watch a video. Can you perhaps just explain your position in your own words? As I have read the Fix NICS Bill, I don't see anything wrong with it.

#23 chislinger

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 08:44 PM

Add me to those who don't see what the danger is.
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#24 BobPistol

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 08:54 PM

According to the video, if the LEO agencies or VA or other agencies don't report they don't get a special bonus.  

 

$$$more money for cronies$$$

 

In addition there is the concern of the "parking ticket warrant" gun ban. 


Edited by BobPistol, 04 December 2017 - 08:54 PM.

The Second Amendment of the Constitution protects the rest.

#25 JDW

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 09:07 PM

I'm not sure if this has been pasted here or not, but it's worth posting again. This comes directly from Tim @ The Military Arms Channel via his Patreon page. My take, I agree 100% with Tim. the facts about NICS do not bode well with all the false positives. Anyway, here it is:

 

"I just got off the phone with GOA. It looks like the House Rules Committee is likely to merge HR38 and HR4477 together into one bill. 

HR4477 is the "fix NICS" bill that is being pushed, silently behind closed doors, by the NRA and has overwhelming support by Republicans and Democrats. It will easily pass the House and the Senate with broad bipartisan support -- on it's own.

While the HR4477 seems harmless enough on the surface, the GOA's lawyers have gone over it and the bill will only serve to worsen the NICS system which is already horribly broken. It's not broken in a way that you might think; it denies Americans their rights with a whopping 90%+ false positive rate. HR4477 will force all agencies to report everything to the federal government to deny Americans their right to buy a firearm. This includes doctors, the VA, etc. to report everything including your private medical history to the federal government. 

Have you been diagnosed as a "mental defective"? What is that you may ask? Exactly, it's not defined in the lawand is left open to interpretation by the FBI and ATF. Already we've seen denials for Veterans who did nothing more than seek out assistance with their finances. We watched as Obama tried to ban Americans on Social Security from owning firearms (https://s3.amazonaws...2016-10424.pdf) through the NICS system. 

Have you been diagnosed at any time in your life as being depressed and given medication? Are you on the autism spectrum like my oldest son? Have you been diagnosed with ADHD and medicated at any point in your life? You're now a "mental defective" and your doctor will be required to report you to the federal government. 

After this bill passes, all we need is a new anti-gun President and through EO's he/she can direct the FBI and ATF to rule people to be "mentally defective" for most anything from being a senior citizen to having unpaid traffic tickets.

It's a straight up backdoor gun ban and it has the full support of the NRA who wrote the original law and now secretly supports it being "fixed" via HR4477. 

I am waiting to hear what happens tomorrow with the House Rules Committee. If they do combine the bills I will likely do a live stream in the afternoon to address the issue. We will have to call our congressmen to urge them to vote down whatever the bastardized bill is. We cannot allow HR4477 to pass in any form even if that means losing reciprocity, for now.

If you do contact your congressmen, be sure to not just tell them you oppose the bastardized bill but also urge them to pass reciprocity separately in the future. 

This sucks, guys. It really-really does, but this is where we're at. 

Here's a GOA alert that's going today:  https://www.gunowner...ert12042017.htm

Tim
Sic Semper Tyrannis"

 

End


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#26 JDW

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 09:13 PM

Not to be rude but, I really am not in a position to watch a video. Can you perhaps just explain your position in your own words? As I have read the Fix NICS Bill, I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

 

No disrespect to my fellow member of IC, but to comment so nonchalantly on a matter of such great importance to every legal gun owner in the country seems very misguided. Seriously, no offense, but these things MATTER and they MATTER in a big way. Read what I just posted from Tim, and then maybe you'll see things differently. Then again, not all of us are like minded when it comes to the second amendment, so maybe you won't. It's worth a read, none the less. Take care, brother. 


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#27 Patriot Millennial

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 09:57 PM

Not to be rude but, I really am not in a position to watch a video. Can you perhaps just explain your position in your own words? As I have read the Fix NICS Bill, I don't see anything wrong with it.

 
 
No disrespect to my fellow member of IC, but to comment so nonchalantly on a matter of such great importance to every legal gun owner in the country seems very misguided. Seriously, no offense, but these things MATTER and they MATTER in a big way. Read what I just posted from Tim, and then maybe you'll see things differently. Then again, not all of us are like minded when it comes to the second amendment, so maybe you won't. It's worth a read, none the less. Take care, brother.

I don't quite understand what you're getting at there. I don't see how my "comment" was nonchalant. I was simply stating that through my understanding of the bill, that there seems to be nothing to be concerned about. However, I am just a blue collar man and not a lawyer so perhaps I'm not reading between the lines. I did read your post from Tim andthat is a little more paranoid than I tend to be. Even if those things are true and some day ANYONE who has been prescribed psychological medications are no longer allowed to purchase a firearm, then I feel there would be enough people who are not a danger to themselves or society, and who can prove it, to fight that in court and win. At least to the point of tightening the scope of the mental health disqualifier.

As for my thoughts on the Second Amendment, I do believe that it is to be interpreted as the founders intended as a God given right to protect oneself and the nation from anyone who desires to do us harm, be it the government, criminals, terrorists, or an invading force. I believe that it is not only a right, but a duty as citizens and human beings to stand up and protect ourselves and each other. However, for those that harp so hard and literally on "shall not be infringed" where do you draw the line? Do those people think even convicted, violent felons should have the right to KBA? How about illegal aliens? To me the Second Amendment is a right, but gun ownership carries a great responsibility and there is a mindset that I believe goes along with it.

As someone who has seen actual mental health issues such as bipolar disorder in my sole caregiver as a child, I think people who are not of sound mind and cannot differentiate between someone who simply enjoys strong cologne and someone who is trying to drug them through the use of said cologne probably shouldn't own a firearm for the same reason that a violent felons shouldn't own a firearm:
Their minds are not capable of making sound decisions.
I think that every citizen of sound mind and able body should be able to protect themselves, their family, and this country from whatever evils there may be, but for the greater good, some people just should not have firearms.

There is always a way that the government can use something against us and there always will be politicians who will try and some will succeed, but that's the beauty of our system. Checks and balances. If we don't like something, we can fight to change it. Our system is already stacked against us, but we continue to fight.

If the Fix NICS Bill gets passed and there is some tweaking to do, it can be done. If it being passed means we get Reciprocity, I'm all for it.

As someone who has lived in two Free states as an adult and now has to spend over $300 to protect myself and my family that where I used to reside would cost me either nothing or only a fraction of that, I understand that risks and concessions have to be taken to get what we want. I'm sure no one on this forum was happy to be paying $150 to the state and spending $150 on 16 hours of training, but if that's what it took to get concealed carry here, it seems like almost everyone was willing to grin and bear it.

Mike

#28 JDW

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 12:33 AM

Hi Mike,

 

Tim from the Military Arms Channel is far from the paranoid type. He's one of the largest, and well known advocates for gun rights on social media. He's also very well connected to the big wigs in the Pro 2A organizations. He happens to be friends with Mr. Pete Brownell, the owner of Brownell's, and the current president of the NRA. When the NRA made the statement they did directly after the Las Vegas tragedy, he cut ties with them after meeting with them.  There are currently large a number of well known Pro2A advocates crying foul on the combination of these two bills. I won't bore you or the forum with all the names and links. 

You and I disagree on this issue, and that's fine. Some people like butter on their popcorn, some don't. The thing about NICS FIX to me is that it is far too broad and has the easy potential to to lead to abuse by the feds for any reason they deem reasonable. This fact alone is alarming to say the very least. That's my take. I've been a follower of Tim's work for a while, and he's a guy who doesn't cry wolf, ever. 

As far the prices we pay to in this state to get licensed, it's the highest in the country. We also have the strictest requirements of any state. Thankfully, the ISP does a pretty great job and are good people to work with should questions come up. To me, it's worth every dollar, because protecting my family and myself is a god given right. That's my two cents worth. Happy Holidays to you and yours.

 

JDW


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#29 tkroenlein

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:19 AM

After the church shooting, we are getting a fix NICS bill no matter what. We should try for no waiting periods to go along with it and carry reciprocity.


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#30 lockman

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:41 AM

I believe we can all be “mental defectives” based on so someone else’s beliefs and observation. The best NICS fix is to continue to move the ball closer to the goal and keep the drain clear to let that swamp drain. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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