Fed Judge in Massachusetts upholds AWB

[cybermgk]

..."Surveys of who owns guns are notoriously inaccurate. With all of the hysteria over guns and all of the efforts by some to restrict or outlaw gun ownership, I am not surprised if many owners deny such, or just refuse to answer"...

 

Absolutely. I may have even been guilty of that myself in the past. ;-)

DING, exactly. Throw in often sketchy questions and bingo. there were almost 3 million NICS checks in March alone. Considering the times, a decent percentage of those HAD to be first time buyers. FTB is about all I've seen buying in stores since Feb.

[cybermgk]

 

"..., which Scalia had to figure a way around to declare the right to bear arms an individual right was that he had to state that the militia is a person. In that Article 1 Section 8 allows the states to decide how to regulate the militia or now, because of Scalia and the Heller decision means that they can regulate the person and the personal right. It was a sticky decision and now the parts are being used by the other side.

 

 

 

http://www.mad.uscourts.gov/boston/young.htm

 

I think the Second already affirms the militia is the people... it didn't need Scalia to affirm that. "... the Right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms..." Not the Right of the MILITIA to keep and bear arms. The Second Amendment makes that distinction all on its own. In the end, it's hard to have respect for a judge when they declare they understand the framers intent of the Second Amendment, but are too stupid to grasp the language of "...shall not be infringed."

 

It also said that said regulation can NOT regulate away classes of guns in regular use.

[bmurph44]

Almost all of my friends are gun owners whether it's a pistol for protection or a shotgun for quail or pheasant, black powder or slug for deer hunting, I do see a few ARs when I go to the range but I don't know anyone that owns an AR.

[cybermgk]

What percentage of households possess an AR?

 

I’m guessing it’s very small and most people won’t care about this law.

Pretty short sighted then. It isn't just AR15s in these bans. They are all sem-automatics that can take more than 10 rd mags (which btw is ANY detachable mag semi-auto). SOME also add a conditional need for one other cosmetic addition (like a pistol grip. NOW, how many of THOSE rifles are out there.? I won't even get into the slippery slope issue. Because next comes large cap mags for pistols, then pump shotguns with more than 3 rd capacity, etc. etc. etc. Before you know it, if ANYTHING is allowed it's an actual musket, in small caliber.

[Twostarrz]

 

What percentage of households possess an AR?

I’m guessing it’s very small and most people won’t care about this law.

 

Pretty short sighted then. It isn't just AR15s in these bans. They are all sem-automatics that can take more than 10 rd mags (which btw is ANY detachable mag semi-auto). SOME also add a conditional need for one other cosmetic addition (like a pistol grip. NOW, how many of THOSE rifles are out there.? I won't even get into the slippery slope issue. Because next comes large cap mags for pistols, then pump shotguns with more than 3 rd capacity, etc. etc. etc. Before you know it, if ANYTHING is allowed it's an actual musket, in small caliber.

My kids Ruger 10/22’s are in that list. Ridiculous

[cybermgk]

Almost all of my friends are gun owners whether it's a pistol for protection or a shotgun for quail or pheasant, black powder or slug for deer hunting, I do see a few ARs when I go to the range but I don't know anyone that owns an AR.

And I know 15 who have at least one, a few with Mini 14s often banned, and EVERYONE I know with rifles has at least one with a detacheable mag that could take more than 10 rds.

[Twostarrz]

In my opinion we need an American reset. This is not a call to arms or an act of war. We NEED the silent sleeping majority to wake up. We NEED to get the vote out. We NEED to force a HUGE rollback on anti-constitution legislation. We NEED to remind the people in office that they are indeed just our representatives and NOT the self proclaimed leaders of the people. We NEED to remind the government that this country is of and for the people. We are overtaxed, over-legislated, and extremely under represented by career criminals in politicians clothing. We dont need judges to interpret the constitution, we need them to read and support the constitution. We dont need lawmakers to re-write the constitution, we need them to re-read the constitution. We dont need anyone to deliberate the constitutionality of their laws but to be held accountable to their actions by the constitution. With a little homework the constitution is a very readable document. It was written and deliberated by brilliant people. We dont need anyone to do it again.

 

I want to make it clear to all who read the above that I am personally guilty of being asleep for too long. Like most conservatives I have remained silent in an attempt to avoid conflict with my neighbors (fellow citizens). I can no longer remain impartial. I will see you at IGOLD. this is where I feel is a great place to begin.

[tkroenlein]

Why are we accepting that a model variation of something like a semi automatic rifle may constitute an arm not in common use? A semi auto is a semi auto. There is no functional difference between an AR15, a mini 14 or a Remington 742. These are all properly designated as semi automatic repeaters, yielding one shot per one trigger pull followed by one action cycle. This is what counts for the purposes of definition, and as such easily satisfies the abstract notion of "common use" firearms.

[Twostarrz]

Why are we accepting that a model variation of something like a semi automatic rifle may constitute an arm not in common use? A semi auto is a semi auto. There is no functional difference between an AR15, a mini 14 or a Remington 742. These are all properly designated as semi automatic repeaters, yielding one shot per one trigger pull followed by one action cycle. This is what counts for the purposes of definition, and as such easily satisfies the abstract notion of "common use" firearms.

Let’s not accept it. Stand up for your rights.

[Twostarrz]

I suggest everyone spend $12 and get a copy of the federalist.

[cybermgk]

Why are we accepting that a model variation of something like a semi automatic rifle may constitute an arm not in common use? A semi auto is a semi auto. There is no functional difference between an AR15, a mini 14 or a Remington 742. These are all properly designated as semi automatic repeaters, yielding one shot per one trigger pull followed by one action cycle. This is what counts for the purposes of definition, and as such easily satisfies the abstract notion of "common use" firearms.

I for one am not. In fact that's my point. But some responses in this thread make me wonder if they aren't antis in pro 2a clothing.i

[InterestedBystander]

I suggest everyone spend $12 and get a copy of the federalist.

It is online too http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/1786-1800/the-federalist-papers/

[THE KING]

In my opinion we need an American reset. This is not a call to arms or an act of war. We NEED the silent sleeping majority to wake up. We NEED to get the vote out. We NEED to force a HUGE rollback on anti-constitution legislation. We NEED to remind the people in office that they are indeed just our representatives and NOT the self proclaimed leaders of the people. We NEED to remind the government that this country is of and for the people. We are overtaxed, over-legislated, and extremely under represented by career criminals in politicians clothing. We dont need judges to interpret the constitution, we need them to read and support the constitution. We dont need lawmakers to re-write the constitution, we need them to re-read the constitution. We dont need anyone to deliberate the constitutionality of their laws but to be held accountable to their actions by the constitution. With a little homework the constitution is a very readable document. It was written and deliberated by brilliant people. We dont need anyone to do it again.

I want to make it clear to all who read the above that I am personally guilty of being asleep for too long. Like most conservatives I have remained silent in an attempt to avoid conflict with my neighbors (fellow citizens). I can no longer remain impartial. I will see you at IGOLD. this is where I feel is a great place to begin.

Very well said. Now I will sit back and wait for certain individuals to come and tell you how wrong you are.

[THE KING]

I suggest everyone spend $12 and get a copy of the federalist.

That's actually my next purchase when the wife and I go shopping this week. I have been reading some of the articles online and the more I read the more I understand that most people have no clue what the 2nd amendment really means.

[357]

actually a silly argument about the number but I will continue down the path just the same......... if we say 23 million produced... 20 million of which are in circulation

 

then we say (guessing) 20% are sitting somewhere on a store shelf or in a warehouse.... that leaves 16 million in someones home

 

another assumption based off personal experience..... if someone owns 1 they own 2 and often more..... but lets say half the people own 2 and half only own 1

 

that actually brings us to about 7% +- of households

 

this sure is a lot of assumptions and guesswork based off information that nobody really has...... so I would say 3% isnt that far off either considering we have no clue how many are actually in circulation

 

Wow, you still insist on the 3%. That's just AR-15. How many millions of AK-47 and other semi-automatic rifles are out there. How many people own the millions of rifles imported from overseas? A ruger 10/22 with a pistol grip and folding stock is classified as an "assault weapon" and "weapon of war" and over 5 million have been build,how many millions of people own them and other similar semi-automatic rifles?

[Twostarrz]

 

I suggest everyone spend $12 and get a copy of the federalist.

It is online too http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/1786-1800/the-federalist-papers/

I suggested purchase of a book because I personally have an easier time reading an actual book. Don’t know why but I do. Either digital or hard copy are fine, I just overlooked the digital option because I didn’t like it.

[vito]

Anyone on this forum that thinks Federal judges are ignorant of what the Founders intended is naive. They fully understand, but they just don't care. Just this past year a renowned Federal judge (I just can't recall his name) made the news when he said that aspiring judges should not waste their time studying the Constitution, saying it is irrelevant and outdated. Do you image that Supreme Court justices are equally as ignorant, or what is much more likely is that they just DON'T CARE what the intent of the 2nd Amendment was. They just know that they "feel" that guns are bad and so there is no end to their rationalization of gun control laws so as to justify allowing them to stand. If a gun control law is the basis of a lawsuit in Federal court, we absolutely know in advance how several of the justices on the Supreme Court will vote, NO MATTER WHAT THE FACTS ARE, Unfortunately in a way, some of the justices who are actually responsible jurists will look at the facts and might or might not come down on the side of gun rights. But the key is, we already know where the liberals on the court will vote no matter what.

 

If you doubt any of what I have stated here just think about this. The 2nd Amendment says "will not be infringed" yet they rule over and over in favor of such infringements. But when an issue that they want to rule favorably on, such as abortion, they actually claim it is a Constitutional rights, somehow derived under another mysterious "right of privacy". It is all political. The 2nd Amendment only gives us protection against those who would disarm us when we have a majority on the court who are conservatives. The moment the Supreme Court can achieve 5 liberals, you can absolutely count on all of the 2nd Amendment protections to be wiped out as quickly as a case can be brought to the court for review.

[brobits]

if you own an AR, what's the probability it's your only AR? I would bet most AR owners have more than one AR.

 

10-15 million ARs in circulation don't mean 10-15 million households with an AR. At ~126 million households in America, 3% would be 3,780,000 households. On the upper estimate of ARs in circulation (15 million), that comes out to around 4 ARs per household, if you own an AR.

 

I'd say this is probably a little high, and I would GUESS the number is closer to 2.7 ARs per household, which would put the number of ARs in circulation around 10-11 million. that's just a guess though, assuming the 3% household AR ownership figure.

[Twostarrz]

Anyone on this forum that thinks Federal judges are ignorant of what the Founders intended is naive. They fully understand, but they just don't care. Just this past year a renowned Federal judge (I just can't recall his name) made the news when he said that aspiring judges should not waste their time studying the Constitution, saying it is irrelevant and outdated. Do you image that Supreme Court justices are equally as ignorant, or what is much more likely is that they just DON'T CARE what the intent of the 2nd Amendment was. They just know that they "feel" that guns are bad and so there is no end to their rationalization of gun control laws so as to justify allowing them to stand. If a gun control law is the basis of a lawsuit in Federal court, we absolutely know in advance how several of the justices on the Supreme Court will vote, NO MATTER WHAT THE FACTS ARE, Unfortunately in a way, some of the justices who are actually responsible jurists will look at the facts and might or might not come down on the side of gun rights. But the key is, we already know where the liberals on the court will vote no matter what.

 

If you doubt any of what I have stated here just think about this. The 2nd Amendment says "will not be infringed" yet they rule over and over in favor of such infringements. But when an issue that they want to rule favorably on, such as abortion, they actually claim it is a Constitutional rights, somehow derived under another mysterious "right of privacy". It is all political. The 2nd Amendment only gives us protection against those who would disarm us when we have a majority on the court who are conservatives. The moment the Supreme Court can achieve 5 liberals, you can absolutely count on all of the 2nd Amendment protections to be wiped out as quickly as a case can be brought to the court for review.

 

So what can be done about our inalienable rights? As mere voters using a voting system that is flawed, possibly fraudulent, what course of action is left?

[cybermgk]

actually a silly argument about the number but I will continue down the path just the same......... if we say 23 million produced... 20 million of which are in circulation

 

then we say (guessing) 20% are sitting somewhere on a store shelf or in a warehouse.... that leaves 16 million in someones home

 

another assumption based off personal experience..... if someone owns 1 they own 2 and often more..... but lets say half the people own 2 and half only own 1

 

that actually brings us to about 7% +- of households

 

this sure is a lot of assumptions and guesswork based off information that nobody really has...... so I would say 3% isnt that far off either considering we have no clue how many are actually in circulation

I own only one AR15.

[cybermgk]

if you own an AR, what's the probability it's your only AR? I would bet most AR owners have more than one AR.

 

10-15 million ARs in circulation don't mean 10-15 million households with an AR. At ~126 million households in America, 3% would be 3,780,000 households. On the upper estimate of ARs in circulation (15 million), that comes out to around 4 ARs per household, if you own an AR.

 

I'd say this is probably a little high, and I would GUESS the number is closer to 2.7 ARs per household, which would put the number of ARs in circulation around 10-11 million. that's just a guess though, assuming the 3% household AR ownership figure.

Again, I only have one AR15. I only need one AR15

[Twostarrz]

If I owned any then I might hypothetically own 2. I’m not admitting ownership.

[papa]

I used to own an AR 15 but sold it . I might own another one in the future .

[cope]

 

actually a silly argument about the number but I will continue down the path just the same......... if we say 23 million produced... 20 million of which are in circulation

 

then we say (guessing) 20% are sitting somewhere on a store shelf or in a warehouse.... that leaves 16 million in someones home

 

another assumption based off personal experience..... if someone owns 1 they own 2 and often more..... but lets say half the people own 2 and half only own 1

 

that actually brings us to about 7% +- of households

 

this sure is a lot of assumptions and guesswork based off information that nobody really has...... so I would say 3% isnt that far off either considering we have no clue how many are actually in circulation

 

Wow, you still insist on the 3%. That's just AR-15. How many millions of AK-47 and other semi-automatic rifles are out there. How many people own the millions of rifles imported from overseas? A ruger 10/22 with a pistol grip and folding stock is classified as an "assault weapon" and "weapon of war" and over 5 million have been build,how many millions of people own them and other similar semi-automatic rifles?

 

 

I agree... that is just ARs....... that is just what he asked about..... so that is just the answer

[kevinmcc]

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

old language - modern language

 

well regulated - well equipped (modern)

 

free state - free country

 

keep and bear - own and carry

 

arms - weapons and munition

 

I get really annoyed by this mentality that the militia today should be equipped with muskets. I get really annoyed by those that say the National Guard is the militia. The second amendment guarantees our right to AR-15s, M-4s, M-16s, etc... If you read federalist paper 46 Madison called for the military to be limited to 30,000 soldiers and the militia to be more than 500,000. Today the US military has 2.1 million troops including reserves. If the 16 2/3 ratio of militia to military were maintained today we would need a minimum of 35 million militia members. There are about 120 million people in US age 18-45, that means more than 1 in 4 should be armed in order to form a militia as the founders intended.

[mikew]

well regulated - well trained, well practiced (modern)

 

Webster on the web:

3 : to fix or adjust the time, amount, degree, or rate of

• regulate the pressure of a tire

[Mr. Fife]

In Illinois there is allowance for two militias. There's the organized and unorganized militias. I guess the organized one covers the well regulated requirements. Choose your militias wisely grasshopper.

 

Stupid speelchick.

 

.

[kevinmcc]

well regulated - well trained, well practiced (modern)

 

Webster on the web:

 

3 : to fix or adjust the time, amount, degree, or rate of

• regulate the pressure of a tire

That sir is an incorrect interpretation. Well regulated had one meaning, functional. You could assume trained, but the 2nd amendment is not about training. The 2nd amendment is about citizens being armed, so in that case, well regulated, functional, means well equipped. My prior comment was from scholars not from dictionary that has zero context.

 

BTW (modern) was meant as in the arms used, to be functional, well equipped today.

 

You expect today's militia to be well trained and armed with muskets?

[jim123]

In Illinois there is allowance for two militias. There's the organized and unorganized militias. I guess the organized one covers the well regulated requirements. Choose your militias wisely grasshopper.

 

Stupid speelchick.

 

.

Constitution of the State of Illinois ARTICLE XII MILITIA

SECTION 1.  MEMBERSHIP    The State militia consists of all able-bodied personsresiding in the State except those exempted by law.(Source: Illinois Constitution.)

http://www.ilga.gov/commission/lrb/con12.htm

[JTHunter]

As the owner of both an AK and a Ruger 10/22 and "assorted" magazines for both, this is just an example of one of several states where I would never go. In fact, because of the possession of those various magazines, I would actually be "persona non grata" in those states.

 

Fine by me.