steveTA84 Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:02 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:02 AM (((((((((((Its out there and people saw it and chimed in. Nuke it if able. This got taken as attacking the ISRA as a whole. Not the intention. This is an attack for advocating for 1 place while continuing to screw the rest and claim it as a victory while also kissing Pritzkers shoes over it. Thats all.)))))))))))) https://www.enewspf.com/latest-news/latest-local-news/isra-applauds-governors-action-in-signing-law-addressing-concerns-at-the-sparta-world-shooting-complex/ Cant copy/paste text, so screenshots So, in a nutshell, it appears the ISRA assisted in this carveout. Springfield Armory and RRA fiasco 2.0 And the sting is the ISRA Director is APPLAUDING Pritzker for his gracious signing of the bill. Just wonderful (at least the lawsuit is out to challenge GDL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flynn Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:11 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:11 AM Nothing but more unacceptable special interest 'compromises' by gun rights groups as they give away the very rights of everyone else they claim to defend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauserme Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:14 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:14 AM https://www.enewspf.com/latest-news/latest-local-news/isra-applauds-governors-action-in-signing-law-addressing-concerns-at-the-sparta-world-shooting-complex/ Cant copy/paste text, so screenshots So, in a nutshell, it appears the ISRA assisted in this carveout. Springfield Armory and RRA fiasco 2.0 And the sting is the ISRA Director is APPLAUDING Pritzker for his gracious signing of the bill. Just wonderful (at least the lawsuit is out to challenge GDL) We were also supportive of SB1139. Let's not be picking any fights with our friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InterestedBystander Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:25 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:25 AM Many portray this Sparta exception as something new but it's been in the law for years. The GDL legislation cut it out, apparently unintentionally, and this restored what had previously been in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauserme Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:27 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:27 AM Many portray this Sparta exception as something new but it's been in the law for years. The GDL legislation cut it out, apparently unintentionally, and this restored what had previously been in place. Along with adding some fixes I think most can support, like the carry license renewal correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveTA84 Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:43 AM Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:43 AM Im not picking fights, but the issue is why should they be exempt when 1000+ others are out of business now? Sparta World is no longer affected by anything that the other shops have to deal with. Bigger issue though is that through this little act, JB can now say hey, I threw you guys (ISRA and gun owners) a bone, so forget anything more. A small bone that only affects a small amount of people and has nothing to do with advancing/maintaining our rights Im specifically talking about the carveout as well, not so much the other things in the bill (although the LEO criteria to carry a pistol when hunting is BS. Another privilege for a select few). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauserme Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:47 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:47 AM Im not picking fights, but the issue is why should they be exempt when 1000+ others are out of business now? Sparta World is no longer affected by anything that the other shops have to deal with. Bigger issue though is that through this little act, JB can now say hey, I threw you guys (ISRA and gun owners) a bone, so forget anything more. A small bone that only affects a small amount of people and has nothing to do with advancing/maintaining our rights Yes, you are in fact trying to pick a fight in the same way you did with IGOT. The bill gives us some wins. It gives others some wins that are relatively neutral in that they were pre-existing and were going to be put back into law with or without IC or ISRA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauserme Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:51 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:51 AM Im specifically talking about the carveout as well, not so much the other things in the bill (although the LEO criteria to carry a pistol when hunting is BS. Another privilege for a select few). Edited by steveTA84, Today, 10:45 PM. It passed as a package. It could have passed with only the Sparta language, albeit with less than the unanimous consent it received. The items you approve of had little chance of passing on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveTA84 Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:59 AM Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 03:59 AM Im specifically talking about the carveout as well, not so much the other things in the bill (although the LEO criteria to carry a pistol when hunting is BS. Another privilege for a select few).Edited by steveTA84, Today, 10:45 PM.It passed as a package. It could have passed with only the Sparta language, albeit with less than unanimous consent. The items you approve of had little chance of passing on their own.I understand that, but maybe we should just allow LEO and retired LEO to keep their current AR-15’s/Semi auto rifles and everyone else will be SOL. These “compromise” things are what leads to more and more restrictions down the road and at the same time, appeasing larger players that could be useful for our fight as a whole (think Sparta World cares anymore about GDL?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domin8 Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:06 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:06 AM I'm sitting here scratching my head about the military exemption. Unless they are Illinois residents they don't need a FOID Card. Obtaining a FOID card is optional for them, not mandatory. The FCA already makes it legal for nonresidents who aren't otherwise prohibited, to lawfully have their firearms in Illinois while they are stationed in the state. If you want a real solution, either get the FOID Card repealed (I know that's already in the works via Brown) or open it up to nonresidents. While you guys were fussing about CCLs nonresident military family members weren't able to purchase ammo, rent guns at the range, buy long guns, etc. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveTA84 Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:12 AM Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:12 AM I'm sitting here scratching my head about the military exemption. Unless they are Illinois residents they don't need a FOID Card. Obtaining a FOID card is optional for them, not mandatory. The FCA already makes it legal for nonresidents who aren't otherwise prohibited, to lawfully have their firearms in Illinois while they are stationed in the state. If you want a real solution, either get the FOID Card repealed (I know that's already in the works via Brown) or open it up to nonresidents. While you guys were fussing about CCLs nonresident military family members weren't able to purchase ammo, rent guns at the range, buy long guns, etc. Sent from my SM-N960U using TapatalkAnd all of the stuff about how bad the GDL act is and how it was burdensome on one place, and then applauding Pritzker for carving them out of it all and making it sound like it’s such a great thing (maybe it is for Joe Biden trap shooters who hate semi-autos. WhoKnows). FOID needs to go and GDL needs to go. Any compromises on those are not victories, as it just strengthens the unjust/draconian laws as they are now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Flag Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:21 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:21 AM Carving out Sparta: The government sanctioned Firearms Retail Zone needs no GDL and gets other special law to enable the transfer of expensive shotguns, while half of the state's FFLs fold. Carving out Sparta helps legitimize and cement the GDL. What would happen if there was no carve out and no shotguns could be instantly sold at Sparta? Would there be motivation to reverse the law? Yes,it's good there's a lawsuit, but there's also this applause for saving Sparta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domin8 Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:26 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:26 AM Carving out Sparta: The government sanctioned Firearms Retail Zone needs no GDL and gets other special law to enable the transfer of expensive shotguns, while half of the state's FFLs fold. Carving out Sparta helps legitimize and cement the GDL. What would happen if there was no carve out and no shotguns could be instantly sold at Sparta? Would there be motivation to reverse the law? Yes,it's good there's a lawsuit, but there's also this applause for saving Sparta.I agree. Affecting the state's incoming tax revenue would've sent a message. Oh, wait. Who am I kidding? The government of Illinois thinks every day is April 15th. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveTA84 Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:28 AM Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:28 AM · Hidden by mauserme, August 2, 2019 at 04:40 AM - No reason given Hidden by mauserme, August 2, 2019 at 04:40 AM - No reason given Carving out Sparta: The government sanctioned Firearms Retail Zone needs no GDL and gets other special law to enable the transfer of expensive shotguns, while half of the state's FFLs fold. Carving out Sparta helps legitimize and cement the GDL. What would happen if there was no carve out and no shotguns could be instantly sold at Sparta? Would there be motivation to reverse the law? Yes,it's good there's a lawsuit, but there's also this applause for saving Sparta.Thank these guys Link to comment
Black Flag Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:37 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:37 AM I think that some of it was a genuine concern for the hole that would be left by no commerce from Sparta, but it has to look bad when you also factor in the loss of half of the state's FFLs, in this way it is shortsighted. How the distribution of the FFL closures look on a statewide map will also be telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domin8 Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:54 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 04:54 AM I was agreeing with you, but also recognizing the state's lack of concern about its impending bankruptcy. I'm speaking about finances and not morals. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raw Power Posted August 2, 2019 at 09:26 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 09:26 AM Of course there is horse trading in politics. I think we all get that. I have my gripes with the ISRA. I'm still a member, and have donated several times beyond that. However, how does the political capital spent on getting the Sparta carve-out help the rest of Illinois gun owners? I think that's where the animosity is coming from here, and I think there's some justification for those feelings. The ISRA an anyone spending our scant resources on special interests, should be absolutely transparent on them before, during, and after. How about pushing for a few more rights to be exercised by CCL holders? Public transit carry? Bringing gun owners into the fight from from places other than downstate? Now for the flip side: We're in for the fight of our lives coming up. Bloomberg was able to get questions submitted to the DNC debates two nights ago. I think that should scare the pants off of us, and show us the kind of organization, money, and efforts we're up against. Bickering and in-fighting is not a road we should be going down. We need to start building resources, doing outreach, preparing our own professional messaging, hiring more lobbyists, and growing political ties before 2020. If our strategy is "elect Trump" and hope that he's going to protect our gun rights, we're in for a world of hurt and a huge loss of our rights. We need more grass-roots efforts in the state of Illinois, and particularly up North (city and collar counties), where the population centers are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock23 Posted August 2, 2019 at 11:41 AM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 11:41 AM The bill gives us some wins. It gives others some wins that are relatively neutral in that they were pre-existing and were going to be put back into law with or without IC or ISRA. Those "wins" are bread crumbs. It restored a carve-out that essentially let's Sparta survive, while over half of Illinois FFLs are out of business. It added yet another carve-out that puts active duty military above others, as your average everyday 18-20 year old living on their own still can't get a FOID without mommy or daddy's permission. And aligning the expiration dates? I lost a whole $7 or $8 by renewing in November instead of waiting until my CCL was about to expire, so yeah... 5 years from now I can save a few dollars and take a celebratory trip to Starbucks or something. What I see is a lot of parading around in support of bipartisan legislation when the fact remains that yet another year has gone by where the vast majority of gun owners in this state have gained virtually nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Flag Posted August 2, 2019 at 12:35 PM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 12:35 PM We were also supportive of SB1139. I didn't see an IC announcement heralding its signing. Did I miss it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauserme Posted August 2, 2019 at 12:50 PM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 12:50 PM We were also supportive of SB1139. I didn't see an IC announcement heralding its signing. Did I miss it?You didn't miss anything. Our support was more passive than the ISRA's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallbore Posted August 2, 2019 at 01:13 PM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 01:13 PM Nothing wrong with picking a friendly constructive fight with a friend who needs some good advise.Some might call it "an intervention". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagloo Posted August 2, 2019 at 01:51 PM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 01:51 PM I agree with Steve. This is carve out and discrimination between who gets affected by these draconian Dealer laws is BS. When we let the Anti 2A split our ranks with crumbs, and knuckleheads on our side fall for this, it undermines our entire position - as this cements the fate of the rest who have to deal with this. What happened to the united front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauserme Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:21 PM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:21 PM I agree with Steve. This is carve out and discrimination between who gets affected by these draconian Dealer laws is BS. When we let the Anti 2A split our ranks with crumbs, and knuckleheads on our side fall for this, it undermines our entire position - as this cements the fate of the rest who have to deal with this. What happened to the united front? Sure. It feels better to choose to divide the groups. It legitimizes it, because we chose it. It's almost as if it isn't being forced upon us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveTA84 Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:28 PM Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:28 PM I agree with Steve. This is carve out and discrimination between who gets affected by these draconian Dealer laws is BS. When we let the Anti 2A split our ranks with crumbs, and knuckleheads on our side fall for this, it undermines our entire position - as this cements the fate of the rest who have to deal with this. What happened to the united front? I also posted the Fudd meme here and this is why I did: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/us/politics/gabby-giffords-minnesota-guns.html On Thursday, two days before the 20th anniversary of the mass shooting at Columbine High School, former Representative Gabrielle Giffords went to Minnesota to announce the creation of a gun safety advocacy group. The groups agenda is predictable: It will lobby for universal background checks and an extreme risk protection law, which would allow the temporary confiscation of guns from people believed to pose an imminent threat to themselves or others. Its composition is not: The members are all gun owners. The group, Minnesota Gun Owners for Safety, is the second of its kind from Ms. Giffordss namesake organization, which she founded after the shooting that almost killed her. (The first, in Colorado, started in January.) Ms. Giffords and her husband, Mark Kelly, who is running for Senate in Arizona, own guns themselves and argue that gun ownership can coexist with significantly stricter gun laws. [Make sense of the people, issues and ideas shaping American politics with our newsletter.] In an interview, conducted by email and lightly edited for length, Ms. Giffords discussed the new group and reflected on what has, and hasnt, changed in the eight years since she was shot............So, https://giffords.org/mngunowners/ Read through that. These are the Fudds who will gladly work with the antis as long as they can hunt and shoot trap. Cutting deals and working with the antis and applauding carveouts is not supporting the 2nd, its supportinh self interest so you can do sport shooting (mentioned nowhere in the 2nd). Thats what Im getting at with all of this. It doesnt help us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagloo Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:28 PM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:28 PM Sure. It feels better to choose to divide the groups. It legitimizes it, because we chose it.It's almost as if it isn't being forced upon us. So, we stay united only until which point some one gets a crumb. Then those left out in the cold are told to toughen up, and pipe down. If they don't, they then are blamed for dividing the group. Makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauserme Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:39 PM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:39 PM I also posted the Fudd meme here and this is why I did: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/us/politics/gabby-giffords-minnesota-guns.html On Thursday, two days before the 20th anniversary of the mass shooting at Columbine High School, former Representative Gabrielle Giffords went to Minnesota to announce the creation of a gun safety advocacy group. The groups agenda is predictable: It will lobby for universal background checks and an extreme risk protection law, which would allow the temporary confiscation of guns from people believed to pose an imminent threat to themselves or others. Its composition is not: The members are all gun owners. The group, Minnesota Gun Owners for Safety, is the second of its kind from Ms. Giffordss namesake organization, which she founded after the shooting that almost killed her. (The first, in Colorado, started in January.) Ms. Giffords and her husband, Mark Kelly, who is running for Senate in Arizona, own guns themselves and argue that gun ownership can coexist with significantly stricter gun laws. [Make sense of the people, issues and ideas shaping American politics with our newsletter.] In an interview, conducted by email and lightly edited for length, Ms. Giffords discussed the new group and reflected on what has, and hasnt, changed in the eight years since she was shot............So, https://giffords.org/mngunowners/ Read through that. These are the Fudds who will gladly work with the antis as long as they can hunt and shoot trap. Cutting deals and working with the antis and applauding carveouts is not supporting the 2nd, its supportinh self interest so you can do sport shooting (mentioned nowhere in the 2nd). Thats what Im getting at with all of this. It doesnt help us ... Read through that. These are the Fudds who will gladly work with the antis as long as they can hunt and shoot trap. Cutting deals and working with the antis and applauding carveouts is not supporting the 2nd, its supportinh self interest so you can do sport shooting (mentioned nowhere in the 2nd). Thats what Im getting at with all of this. It doesnt help us ... The plan, then, is to alienate those potential allies, the "Fudds'? Because the smaller we are, the better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveTA84 Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:45 PM Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:45 PM I also posted the Fudd meme here and this is why I did:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/us/politics/gabby-giffords-minnesota-guns.html On Thursday, two days before the 20th anniversary of the mass shooting at Columbine High School, former Representative Gabrielle Giffords went to Minnesota to announce the creation of a gun safety advocacy group.The groups agenda is predictable: It will lobby for universal background checks and an extreme risk protection law, which would allow the temporary confiscation of guns from people believed to pose an imminent threat to themselves or others.Its composition is not: The members are all gun owners.The group, Minnesota Gun Owners for Safety, is the second of its kind from Ms. Giffordss namesake organization, which she founded after the shooting that almost killed her. (The first, in Colorado, started in January.) Ms. Giffords and her husband, Mark Kelly, who is running for Senate in Arizona, own guns themselves and argue that gun ownership can coexist with significantly stricter gun laws.[Make sense of the people, issues and ideas shaping American politics with our newsletter.]In an interview, conducted by email and lightly edited for length, Ms. Giffords discussed the new group and reflected on what has, and hasnt, changed in the eight years since she was shot............So,https://giffords.org/mngunowners/Read through that. These are the Fudds who will gladly work with the antis as long as they can hunt and shoot trap. Cutting deals and working with the antis and applauding carveouts is not supporting the 2nd, its supportinh self interest so you can do sport shooting (mentioned nowhere in the 2nd).Thats what Im getting at with all of this. It doesnt help us ...Read through that. These are the Fudds who will gladly work with the antis as long as they can hunt and shoot trap. Cutting deals and working with the antis and applauding carveouts is not supporting the 2nd, its supportinh self interest so you can do sport shooting (mentioned nowhere in the 2nd).Thats what Im getting at with all of this. It doesnt help us...The plan, then, is to alienate those potential allies, the "Fudds'? Because the smaller we are, the better? They’re not our allies. They work with the antis to preserve their sport, not protect the 2nd as intended. They wouldn’t shed a tear if semi-auto rifles were banned (in fact, many I know have stated that we would’ve better without them because they’re too dangerous to own. Not making that up). They will only act as allies for sporting purposes (like the lead shot bill), but will do jack for things like SB107 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagloo Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:48 PM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:48 PM The alienation occurs when you don't subject the 'potential' allies to the same pain everyone else has to deal with. They never have to become allies then. That is part of the Anti's Game plan, to divide and conquer. Why doesn't this simple logic register? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveTA84 Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:54 PM Author Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:54 PM The alienation occurs when you don't subject the 'potential' allies to the same pain everyone else has to deal with. They never have to become allies then. That is part of the Anti's Game plan, to divide and conquer. Why doesn't this simple logic register? 100% THIS!!!!! Spelled out in plain English Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauserme Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:58 PM Share Posted August 2, 2019 at 02:58 PM Theyre not our allies. They work with the antis to preserve their sport, not protect the 2nd as intended. They wouldnt shed a tear if semi-auto rifles were banned (in fact, many I know have stated that we wouldve better without them because theyre too dangerous to own. Not making that up). They will only act as allies for sporting purposes (like the lead shot bill), but will do jack for things like SB107The term I used was potential allies. Criticizing people who may not understand the issue is a lazy approach to this. It maintains the status quo rather than advancing the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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