Interstate FTF Long gun transfer.

[Euler]

The question is about the definition of the word "shipped." The ATF letter does not specify the manner of shipping.

 

I understand that some investigators could be overzealous in their enforcement of the law, particularly in the Chicago area. I understand that some FFLs could establish policies of not transferring firearms from out-of-state unless they come from another FFL, because (for example) there's less chance it's stolen property that way. I also understand that many FFLs, including (or maybe especially) chain corporations, establish restrictive policies beyond the requirement of the law because they choose not to understand the law. (Think about Walmart/Gander/whatever refusing an IL CCL in place of a FOID, and you get my drift.)

 

So have there been any cases in which anyone faced legal consequences because a firearm in an interstate transfer was "shipped" unloaded in the locked trunk of the car of the unlicensed owner?

 

Since it is not illegal for an unlicensed owner to have a common carrier transport a firearm to an FFL, imagine that there's a FedEx office next to the FFL. The owner crosses a state line, goes to the FedEx office, and has the firearm "shipped" next door to the FFL. The first two of those things are clearly legal and routine. Unless you want to argue that it is (or should be) illegal for a firearm owner to have a firearm shipped by an out-of-state office of a common carrier, that entire process is no different than walking into the FFL himself and skipping the carrier, except that it saves money and time.

[obfd13]

 

The ATF website referencing unlicensed persons (like the OP) clearly says that "a person may transfer a firearm to a licensee in any state". (It's the last paragraph on the graphic provided by ealcala31). Licensees, being the in business, are indeed restricted to do transfers in the state in which they are licensed.

I guess you did not read the highlighted portion of the screenshot that stated, "must be shipped."

 

Actually, if you read the entire highlighted portion it states "Generally, ...the firearm must be shipped". Generally, which indicates not always. Maybe being located within a short distance of the neighboring state would be a reasonable exclusion to always.

[ealcala31]

The question is about the definition of the word "shipped." The ATF letter does not specify the manner of shipping.I understand that some investigators could be overzealous in their enforcement of the law, particularly in the Chicago area. I understand that some FFLs could establish policies of not transferring firearms from out-of-state unless they come from another FFL, because (for example) there's less chance it's stolen property that way. I also understand that many FFLs, including (or maybe especially) chain corporations, establish restrictive policies beyond the requirement of the law because they choose not to understand the law. (Think about Walmart/Gander/whatever refusing an IL CCL in place of a FOID, and you get my drift.)So have there been any cases in which anyone faced legal consequences because a firearm in an interstate transfer was "shipped" unloaded in the locked trunk of the car of the unlicensed owner?Since it is not illegal for an unlicensed owner to have a common carrier transport a firearm to an FFL, imagine that there's a FedEx office next to the FFL. The owner crosses a state line, goes to the FedEx office, and has the firearm "shipped" next door to the FFL. The first two of those things are clearly legal and routine. Unless you want to argue that it is (or should be) illegal for a firearm owner to have a firearm shipped by an out-of-state office of a common carrier, that entire process is no different than walking into the FFL himself and skipping the carrier, except that it saves money and time.

The whole point is to save money & time. My Wisconsin customers have to pay $25 shipping and appr $50 for a handgun transfer. I could save my customers $25 each rip but because my IOI guy is deaf on shipping, I do it. In IL, I can do FFL-FFL transfers with another IL dealer with no prob. Now, when I have to ship something, it goes in my trunk or my back seat. Whatever I have to do, if I run into a UPS Guy along the way, I pull over and give it to him.

For arguments sake, there is no argument, I am telling you the law or guidance per my IOI guys rules, not mine. Everyone in here says, "federal law says this or federal law says that." Most of what we go by are ATF Guidance letters, this is used by the ATF bureaucrats to clarify grey areas in the law, like "shipped." I have been doing this for 1.5yrs and were just like you guys in "interpreting" the law. When your IOI guy has the interview with you, he is going to explain to you the law and the way "he wants it done." He'll bring out Guidance Letters and the ATF Interpretation on how they read into the law.

Now, I will give you my personal experience on the OPs question as an unlicensed person and as a licensed dealer. I know a guy from Indiana that drove to Midwest, in Lyons, to sell his Glock 30 to his cousin in IL, that is the guy I actually know. When they got there, Midwest told them it was illegal to drive it here but since you're here, we'll do it. As a licensed FFL Dealer, I know why Midwest & Blythe's allowed it, the ATF really doesn't scrutinize this aspect of the law. They are more concerned about the chain of custody, who did the gun shop actually get the firearm from, the unlicensed seller. The chain of custody stays in-tact. But...I am not going to tell someone don't worry about it, ATF rarely prosecutes a case like this or even investigates one, and then this person so happens to be the, "one, lucky, individual."

Here is a FFL newsletter from 2010, as anyone with basic comprehension can understand, the ATF is clearly trying to emphasize shipping the firearm. They even reference UPS and FedEx and encourage an adult signature. I say "encourage" because if you read federal law, it says "written acknowledgement," but the ATF wants an adult signature. So, are you going to thumb your nose at the IOI guy and say, it only requires written acknowledgement. Guess what, now he is going to go through your paperwork with 2 fine tooth combs and I am sure he is going to find ssomething. Every gov auditor does, whether it's the city, state, or feds.

[ealcala31]

 

 

The ATF website referencing unlicensed persons (like the OP) clearly says that "a person may transfer a firearm to a licensee in any state". (It's the last paragraph on the graphic provided by ealcala31). Licensees, being the in business, are indeed restricted to do transfers in the state in which they are licensed.

 

I guess you did not read the highlighted portion of the screenshot that stated, "must be shipped."

Actually, if you read the entire highlighted portion it states "Generally, ...the firearm must be shipped". Generally, which indicates not always. Maybe being located within a short distance of the neighboring state would be a reasonable exclusion to always.

Yes, it says generally. To the ATF that means normal course of business. Was there any exception to the rule referenced, nope. Did the ATF give examples, nope. Did YOU read a Guidance Letter that gives exceptions to the rule, prob not, so you have no idea what the exception is besides what you wanted it to be. Got it. If anyone can find case law, an ATF Guidance Letter, or federal statute that pertains to the exceptions I'm all ears. But if this was a normal course of business for an unlicensed person, than "generally," every unlicensed person would be doing it. You do know that the ATF does answer emailed questions by unlicensed as well as licensed dealers. Send them an email and add in whatever "what ifs" you think pertains to the OPs question or your viewpoint. Post it here, would love to read it. Obviously, you did not read the FFL Newsletter I put up above. I will run it again for you and maybe, generally, you might find the exception you're looking for but I doubt it.

[obfd13]

I didn't say I wanted the exception to be anything, as I pointed out that you only quoted part of your highlighted attachment. It's appears more to be how you want it to be. Besides, it appears your highlights come from an opinion piece rather than a highlight of the actual law.

[Rilo]

 

You can do F2F transfers of long guns in other states. I know a few people who have.

 

Federal law places somewhat looser restrictions on the sale or transfer of long guns like rifles and shotguns across state lines. Under federal law, individuals can lawfully obtain a long gun from a seller or transferor in another state, provided that: Both parties meet in person to conduct the sale or transfer.

 

Please cite the relevant law that allows private parties from different states to legally transfer long guns across state lines. Just because people have done it doesn't necessarily mean that they did it legally.

 

Jim,

 

i am not up on the law i dont claim to be but i know of two in my CCL class that said they had bought from WI i assumed that would be privately but maybe it wasn't.

[ealcala31]

I didn't say I wanted the exception to be anything, as I pointed out that you only quoted part of your highlighted attachment. It's appears more to be how you want it to be. Besides, it appears your highlights come from an opinion piece rather than a highlight of the actual law.

Yes, I quoted many ATF Guidance Letters and FFL news letters the ATF gives to dealers. These ATF "Opinions" are binding for FFL Dealers. The IOI guys will cite a Guidance Letter as binding interpretation on a federal law if it creates conflict in the vagueness of the law. But how would you know that, you wouldn't. The other day I put a Sylvan Arms folding adapter on a 7.5in AR Pistol and was told that if the LOP was farther than 13.5in, I prob gunsmith a SBR. Guess what, took it all apart and gave it back to the customer. Many of you guys, in the past, have talked about 922r requirements. The ATF really doesn't look to come after the private owner, they look to come after the dealer for 922r requirements. Why, because we should have known and they hit us with, "YOU willfully violated the Gun Control Act of 1968, the NFA of 1934, etc, etc."

[ealcala31]

Once you get an FFL, you become an immediate expert and with that comes the ability to walk on water. Case in point, Fred Lutger, the long time owner of Freddie Bear Sports in Tinley Park had the stones to tell me with a straight face that it's illegal for a non-FFL to ship any firearm to an Illinois FFL for transfer to its new owner and illegal for an Illinois FFL to accept a shipment of a firearm from a non-FFL. Here's a case of an FFL with years of experience making up his own rules that fly in the face of the actual truth.

 

Can I legally take any of my firearms to Cabela's in Indiana and trade it in for another firearm? Yes, I legally can. So please explain what the difference is in the case of the OP taking his firearm to an Indiana dealer to transfer to its new owner.

Your Freddie Bear story is the part of this business that I don't like. I agree with you. He used his company policy as if it is federal law when it's not. His company policy is the reason that he's giving you but that's because it's an easy answer. I make my policies very clear, this is federal law and this is my policy. I am allowed to be more stricter than federal law. You can either do business with me or not.

As far as your last paragraph, there is a difference in federal law between you selling me your firearm at my place of business, regardless of where you live and a FFL dealer performing a private party background check from 2 individuals who don't reside in the same state. It's on the ATF 4473 form, there is a box you check when performing a background check for 2 unlicensed individuals. It sucks, I agree, but it's the law. I don't understand some of your replies, everyone of you guys for personal knowledge, can email the ATF yourself and ask the same question. The ATF will usually answer it in a timely manner. I, and other dealers do it all the time. I emailed my IOI guy at least a dozen times in a year and a half and he gave me his personal number to call him or text questions. Here's one text I'll show you, obviously, I'm going to black out his phone number.