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Definition of "loaded" per Illinois law


Hazborgufen

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To preface, I've searched both on the Illinois Compiled Statutes site and on this forum and couldn't get an answer with a citation.

 

How does Illinois define "loaded" by law. In my searches of the law I see the use of the words loaded and unloaded but nothing that specifically defines those terms. On this forum I've seen posts mentioning that the state defines a gun as loaded if a magazine that contains ammunition is inserted into the magwell of a firearm, regardless of if a round had been chambered. However if a gun doesn't have a round in the chamber it isn't actually loaded, you still need to load the chamber of the firearm.

 

I am curious because of the Unlawful Use of Weapons charge for which the exceptions are:

 

(i) are broken down in a non-functioning state; or

(ii) are not immediately accessible; or

(iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case, firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card;

 

There are plenty of citations for the fact that magazines containing ammunition can be stored in the same case as the firearm and that doing so doesn't make the gun loaded. So having loaded magazines in the same case is legal. However, aside from internet speculation about this definition, I haven't found a citation that states a magazine inserted into an unchambered firearm qualifies as loaded, is there someplace within Illinois law that defines when a gun is considered loaded? Or a court ruling that states that a person in possession of an unchambered firearm with a magazine inserted was indeed in possession of a loaded firearm?

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Not sure where the definition us offhand, but for a semiauto it is round in the chamber or loaded magazine in the magwell. For a revolver it is live cartridges in the cylinder. Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

Yes, I've seen that posted here before. I'm looking for a citation for that though and I've not found one in my searches of the Illinois Compiled Statutes. Without a definition, stating that an unchambered firearm is considered loaded if a magazine is inserted seems like speculation. I'm looking for something a little concrete.

 

If it isn't defined in law then we shouldn't spread the "inserted but not chambered" definition because it wouldn't necessarily be accurate.

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I have been under the impression it is case law but i can site the court ruling.

 

And as far as I understand, the only way to search caselaw is with premium search engines like LexisNexis or Westlaw. Neither of which the average person would have access to.

 

Just hoping someone might have the citation available since this is something that varies between states. Some states only consider a firearm loaded if it is chambered while other states consider loaded magazines in the same container as a loaded firearm. Without a black and white definition it's hard to know.

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I always heard for semi autos it was chamber has to be empty in order for it to be considered unloaded. But the magazine could be fully loaded and inserted into the gun and its still considered and unloaded firearm because a round is not chambered. Doesn't really matter as much to me anymore now that I have my CCL. Aside from legal obligations and some random events if CC isn't allowed you won't find me there. I never have to worry about it.

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I always heard for semi autos it was chamber has to be empty in order for it to be considered unloaded. But the magazine could be fully loaded and inserted into the gun and its still considered and unloaded firearm because a round is not chambered. Doesn't really matter as much to me anymore now that I have my CCL. Aside from legal obligations and some random events if CC isn't allowed you won't find me there. I never have to worry about it.
Nope. Transport requirement (unloaded and enclosed in a case) means loaded mag can be stored in the case with the firearm, but not in the magwell. Empty mag can be in magwell.

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

 

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I dont know the answer... but I sure see a lot of answers here.... I think that was the OP problem as well. I for one also see no where in the law that defines it. Does anyone have any citation? If theres no law then its not illegal. Would be some handy info to have. Not that it matters to me as someone else posted above... having CC its a nonissue. But I do have a wife without a CC who ocasionally is my DD with my carry in the center console.

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Would you give an unloaded gun to your angry spouse if unloaded meant a loaded magazine was in the gun?

 

I'm not sure how that is really relevant. Presumably if a person is in legal possession of a gun they aren't a criminal on the verge of shooting someone. Many of us walk around with loaded pistols on our hips and that doesn't seem to be very frightening.

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http://www.illinoiscourts.gov/Opinions/SupremeCourt/2009/October/106367.pdf

 

Illinois courts dot com. Use the google search function. All the Illinois law tool you'll ever need.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I will search in a moment, but the link points to the case that defines a center console a "case" not the definition of "loaded." While the facts show that the magazines were not inserted and the firearms weren't chambered, which is unambiguously "unloaded" by definition, it does not address whether a magazine inserted into an unchambered firearm is loaded. In fact, the opinion shows that "plain language" and "plain ordinary meaning" of words are the standards the court would use to determine the definition of words in statutes.

 

That raises the next question. By "plain language" would an unchambered firearm be considered unloaded, even with a magazine inserted?

 

Apologies for being pedantic, just wondering how the notion of an unchambered firearm being being loaded came about.

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I dont know the answer... but I sure see a lot of answers here.... I think that was the OP problem as well. I for one also see no where in the law that defines it. Does anyone have any citation? If theres no law then its not illegal. Would be some handy info to have. Not that it matters to me as someone else posted above... having CC its a nonissue. But I do have a wife without a CC who ocasionally is my DD with my carry in the center console.

 

This is exactly what I'm getting at. It seems to be just general common knowledge that an empty magwell is required but I've never seen any citation in the law, so it seems to be an overly conservative reading of the law.

 

Prior to concealed carry being legal it wasn't unusual for people to fanny pack carry an unloaded pistol with the magazine in a separate zipped pouch. I'm wondering if that was unnecessary and if the magazine could have been in the pistol with the chamber empty. Or if someone wants to carry a truck gun, say a pump action shotgun in a case, could the shotshells be in the magazine tube so long as the chamber was empty? Or an AR15 with the magazine inserted but the bolt forward on an empty chamber. None of the guns could be discharged without first operating the action to chamber a round and are certainly unloaded in that regard.

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Purely a guess on my part. Im thinking along the lines that by definition and meanings of words you are correct, it is perfectly legal to carry a full mag in the magwell as long as not chambered, however I think you will only find the common internet OPINION which is quite simply: "I will not be the test case".

 

Sort of like:

 

1. broken down in a non-functioning state; or
2. not immediately accessible; or
3. unloaded and enclosed in a case, fi rearm carrying
box, shipping box, or other container.
Most people ignore the word "OR" and believe it has to be in all of these states........ it only requires 1 of the 3 to transport. Again, nobody wants to be the test case. After all.. you can have a round chambered in any type of trunk gun as long as its not immediately accessible according to the plain language of the law.
Nobody... including myself... will challenge the law in court. Easy to beat the rap... hard to go along for the ride.
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http://www.illinoiscourts.gov/Opinions/SupremeCourt/2009/October/106367.pdf

Illinois courts dot com. Use the google search function. All the Illinois law tool you'll ever need.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

I will search in a moment, but the link points to the case that defines a center console a "case" not the definition of "loaded." While the facts show that the magazines were not inserted and the firearms weren't chambered, which is unambiguously "unloaded" by definition, it does not address whether a magazine inserted into an unchambered firearm is loaded. In fact, the opinion shows that "plain language" and "plain ordinary meaning" of words are the standards the court would use to determine the definition of words in statutes.

 

That raises the next question. By "plain language" would an unchambered firearm be considered unloaded, even with a magazine inserted?

 

Apologies for being pedantic, just wondering how the notion of an unchambered firearm being being loaded came about.

Diggins establishes what unloaded consists of. That is to say that within a case a loaded magazine may be present, and that this mode of transportation clearly falls under the FOID exemption under 24-2. This is an important first step to answering this question (to your satisfaction.)

 

The next step is to gloss over a few dozen cases where charges of the AUUW nature were sustained and verdicts affirmed on appeal, where various challenges were made. The problem with the vast majority of these cases involved drug dealers/prohibited persons to begin with, so the "loaded" part of the equation doesn't matter, ergo, no appeal to that is made. What you will find is a lot of ridiculous nomenclature like "magazine clip and fully loaded" but also you will see a universal and unchallenged acceptance of the idea that a charged magazine inserted into a firearm is a loaded firearm.

 

I have a few queued up to read. I'm sure at some point it has been discussed at length.

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So again nothing that clearly states what "loaded" means. As I said, not challenging, as Im not that test case. However there is no clear definition, another grey area that everyone will assume the strictest meaning.

 

Shame that our lawmakers would rather see someone go to prison rather than just clarify the law. Seems there should be a law against that!!!

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http://www.illinoiscourts.gov/Opinions/SupremeCourt/2009/October/106367.pdf

Illinois courts dot com. Use the google search function. All the Illinois law tool you'll ever need.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

I will search in a moment, but the link points to the case that defines a center console a "case" not the definition of "loaded." While the facts show that the magazines were not inserted and the firearms weren't chambered, which is unambiguously "unloaded" by definition, it does not address whether a magazine inserted into an unchambered firearm is loaded. In fact, the opinion shows that "plain language" and "plain ordinary meaning" of words are the standards the court would use to determine the definition of words in statutes.

 

That raises the next question. By "plain language" would an unchambered firearm be considered unloaded, even with a magazine inserted?

 

Apologies for being pedantic, just wondering how the notion of an unchambered firearm being being loaded came about.

Diggins establishes what unloaded consists of. That is to say that within a case a loaded magazine may be present, and that this mode of transportation clearly falls under the FOID exemption under 24-2. This is an important first step to answering this question (to your satisfaction.)

 

The next step is to gloss over a few dozen cases where charges of the AUUW nature were sustained and verdicts affirmed on appeal, where various challenges were made. The problem with the vast majority of these cases involved drug dealers/prohibited persons to begin with, so the "loaded" part of the equation doesn't matter, ergo, no appeal to that is made. What you will find is a lot of ridiculous nomenclature like "magazine clip and fully loaded" but also you will see a universal and unchallenged acceptance of the idea that a charged magazine inserted into a firearm is a loaded firearm.

 

I have a few queued up to read. I'm sure at some point it has been discussed at length.

 

 

It could be that those drug dealers didn't fight that specific charge because it was meaningless in the grand scheme of their case. But a person whose only charge against them was that they had an unchambered firearm with a magazine inserted would be more likely to fight that one charge. This is why the case concerning center consoles and the case concerning transporting in a backpack turned out the way they did. Had those defendants had a stack of charges against them it wouldn't have been fought but since they were otherwise innocent gun owners they fought and won.

 

As an aside, handgunlaw.us has a section titled "What Does (state name) Consider A Loaded Firearm" which goes to show that the issue isn't a settled one. Since I am being pedantic on this (which I fully recognize) I went through every state and D.C. and complied a spreadsheet on this issue. My quick findings:

 

5 states consider a gun loaded only if the chamber is loaded. I consider this to be a very lenient definition.

6 states consider a gun loaded if there is ammo in the chamber, the magazine, or anywhere near the gun. I consider this to be very strict.

15 states do not define "loaded" or "unloaded." I include Illinois in this count at this time.

27 states consider a gun loaded if it is unchambered but a loaded magazine is inserted. But this has a LOT of caveats and it is unclear if this applies to all situations or even if it is unlawful outside of those situations.

 

At first glance you might be saying to yourself, "Hey that totals up to 53! There are only 50 states plus 1 when you include D.C.! This guy doesn't know what he's doing!"

 

Ah, but I say to you, kind reader, that the empty chamber but mag inserted definition had a lot of specific provisions. These provisions were mostly related to hunting and it was uncertain if they related to non-hunting activities. Some applied to vehicles when hunting, but it was uncertain if it applied to vehicles when not hunting. A few states considered an unchambered but mag inserted gun to be loaded in sections of their law involving access by children under 18, but it is unclear if that would apply to transport or if no children present.

 

Nevada defines loaded twice. Once in a section regarding rifle and shotguns which only requires a round in the chamber. Then separately in a section about child access which includes the magazine. Utah has a long definition that says rifles, shotguns, and pistols are loaded if a round is chambered. Additionally their law states that a pistol is also considered loaded if "an unexpednded cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired" which seemed a little ambiguous to me. It is for these reasons that I counted these two states as defining loaded as both chamber only and empty chamber but mag inserted thus totaling 53.

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If a firearm fired from an open bolt, it seems that an inserted charged mag would be as loaded as it gets.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I would agree, though most open bolt guns are machine guns right? A semiauto open bolt gun is more of an edge case since most semiautos are closed bolt. Meanwhile, the issue of empty chamber with a loaded magazine can affect manual actions too such as a pump action shotgun with shells in the tube or a bolt action with a detachable magazine. So really this affects more than just semiautomatics.

 

 

there is no definition under Illinois law

 

That's what I suspected. Given the lack of a definition in Illinois law and seeing that there isn't really a consensus of a definition in the laws of other states, do you think someone caught with a loaded mag inserted but an empty chamber with no other charges against them would prevail in court? It seems to me that this follows the same pattern as Diggings and Horstman, specifically that in each case the defendants were following a logical interpretation of the language and prevailed in court.

 

Say a person with a FOID but no CCL had a Glock in their center console in this condition and was pulled over for speeding. Or a person with a zipped cased rifle in this condition in the backseat of their car. Or someone is fannypack transporting in this manner while riding the CTA. Do you think that the courts would use a more lenient definition of "loaded" if the person in these instances put up a vigorous defense?

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Under the Diggins decision (linked above), it was established by the courts that a firearm with no magazine in it but sitting right next to a fully-loaded magazine for that gun is not "loaded", and is perfectly legal to transport within a case (and also established that a center console is a case.) This was important case-law which at least cleared up one possible ambiguity.

 

I believe that the courts would consider a firearm with a loaded magazine inserted as "loaded" despite not having a round chambered. But this has never (that I can find) been 100% defined in Illinois. (It's been defined in other states, although not always the same way.) So there is a little bit of "gray area" here, but there is a strong belief among most for which way the courts would rule.

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