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Known legal ramifications on modifying CCW internals?

CCW legal ramifications

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#31 thobart

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 01:07 AM

 

This is all about the drama:

 

The states attorney is going to say all kinds of bad things about anything you do in order to get a conviction.  It does not matter what they say it matters what a jury believes.  This is a function of what the states attorney says and what your lawyer says. You have no control over this whatsoever.  You are trying to prepare for a test without having any idea on what the test is about.  If you even look at all of the things Mas brings up there is a strategy to how he does things that varies from case to case.

 

So look here are the known facts:

 

There is very little to any evidence that any modifications to firearms has had any real effect on a court case.

 

A gun with a extremely heavy trigger is hard to hit things with (ask the NYPD about the NYC glock trigger and look at the hit statistics)

 

You are the person he has the decision to make about mods to your gun everything in this thread is for the most part opinion

 

I have made the choice to make is possible to get decent hits stabbing the trigger hard while point shooting (the most likely use case I will have for a defensive firearm)

 

 

Nothing good ever happens once the gun comes out.  It is a matter of less bad things happening.  If you take this attitude you will be far better off.  You cant prepare for a violent encounter you can only train to react better to it.

 

You are not the police.  You are not responsible for protecting everyone (even the police are not).  Make the best choices you can and live with them.  by the way all of my defensive guns are between 4 and 5 lbs.

 

 

These are all good thoughts from thobart.

 

That a prosecutor will rip you apart for using a gun in self defense that has been modified so that you can shoot better is the art of folklore.

 

More along the lines that they are going to say you should not have shot someone, you should not have shot them as many times as you did and that you could have run away.

 

It is all about what the jury hears and thinks about what they hear nothing else.  For what it is worth even in Illinois they have not really prosecuted many self defense cases wrongly.  Now the whole UUW thing a while back was kind of BS.  Also you have some protection from civil suits it "can" get thrown out of the shooting is ruled justified but lawyers are good and slipping through the loopholes.

 

You have to make the choice just dont pull the gun out if there is not an immediate credible threat to great harm.  I try to keep some form of escalation of force with me at all times.  My very bright flashlight has served me well in downtown Chicago.  2000 lumens puts a spotlight on people acting stupid if there is some distance and you keep aware.  I have spotlighted quite a few homeless acting funny downtown in the middle of the night.  Drama stooped right away.


Edited by thobart, 08 December 2017 - 01:08 AM.


#32 Mr. Fife

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 10:51 AM



There was the Arizona cop http://www.thetrutha...im-in-court/who had the dust cover inscription of "your ******" used against him.


A not guilty verdict has been delivered in the trial of a former police officer accused of murdering a man in a hotel hallway in 2016. New video of the incident shows the entire episode. Philip Mitchell Brailsford, 27, responding to a 911 call, gives orders to 26-year-old Daniel Shaver, who appears compliant. But when Shaver moved to adjust his waistband, Brailsford shot him.

Brailsford had been charged with second degree murder in the death of Shavers. During the investigation, media seized on the detail that the dust cover of Brailsford’s AR-15 had the phrase “You’re ******” written on the inside.

The Mesa, AZ police would later fire Officer Brailsford for procedural violations. The video alone could justify that decision, as it shows a shooting that was, ultimately, preventable.




http://tribunist.com...rt-learns-fate/
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Have all boated who fish?
Have all boated who fish?
 
 

#33 chicagoresident

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 01:10 PM

His tattoo sleaves where probably used against him as well, lol.

Never underestimate what a prosecuter will use against you. The "victim" will be presented in child like innocence where "you, the cold blooded killer" will have that time you got angry because you missed breakfast at McDonald's used against you.

#34 Ranger

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 09:15 PM

Fish
http://www.nbcnews.c...trail-evidence/

I have a Sig 938 i originally bought for my wife because she liked it. After shooting it, she didn't like it.

Trigger pull very hard (don't remember actual poundage) and safety very difficult to engage.

I've followed Massood Ayoob's writing for probably 30+ years. On another forum, this same topic was being discussed so i posted about this Sig and he responded. His response was basically to effect that was ok to bring it down to more normal trigger pull weight for a single action semi auto self defense pistol (4.5 - 5.5 lbs). I'm trying to find my question and his response so can copy here.

Anyway, I got that 938 out and shot it again the other day. Reminded me what i did and didnt like about it. Called Sig customer service. Rep said they measure weight differently than many so even a 12 pound pull on regular gauge likely within spec and theyd just return without mod or tuning if so. So... i called and ordered a galloway precision crusader replacement trigger and reduced weight spring. Gunsmith installing.

FWIW: Recent events (like church shooting and my church working out plans) have me rethinking carry guns a bit. Now i'm asking myself - not only can i get a stopping shot off quickly at bad breath distance, but can i - with this weapon - make a stopping hit on a shooter from across the church full of running screaming people without much risk to an innocent. Different standard. Maybe different weapon and preparation needed. Accuracy will be important in achieving that goal and a horrible trigger won't help.

#35 Ranger

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 09:38 PM

Massad Ayoob. Cell phone... small view of screen.

#36 FarmHand357

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 09:46 PM

What about taking into consideration mods made for a "senior citizen"?

 

An elderly relative of mine was having trouble cocking the hammer on their SP-101 (.38 Sp.) and even MORE trouble pulling the trigger in DA mode.  A gunsmith would not DO the work but did tell me what to do.  The coil spring in the butt was shortened by 3-4 turns, reducing the almost 30 lb. DA pull to a more manageable 10 lbs.

It is still hard for this relative but at least they can use the gun again.

 

I defy a prosecutor to go after a person in their late 80s for making it easier to protect themselves.

 

Typo?  I don't think any DA gun has a 30 lb pull.  10 I'll buy.


Punish the crime, not the freedom

#37 Mick G

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 07:05 AM

30lbs is a bit excessive but I have a similar situation. My 83 year old mother bought a 686 Plus when she was in her mid 60s She never fired .357 rounds through it but .38 +Ps were manageable. She could shoot it either SA/DA. Not anymore. She has very messed up rotator cuffs, not the strongest fingers and shooting a gun for fun is out is out. She wants no part of carrying and I get it. By the time she pulled a gun any criminals would be in the next county. She actually loved going to the range every Friday and would even have a blast firing my 1911s until she got bit by the slide once and that was the end of her .45 days.

 

While this is going to seem blasphemous, a long time ago I bought one of the infamous Sigma pistols new for dirt at a LSG. I think it was $200 plus two extra magazines. Its a SW9VE and the trigger was the absolute worst. It sat for years. About 5 years ago I got an idea. I called S&W and told them my mother could no longer handle the trigger on the 686 Plus but should kind of pull the trigger on the Sigma. They said basically tough and that was that. Then I got a call back about ten minutes later. It was the same person I was speaking to and they were calling on their cell.

 

Basically they steered me to an S&W AUTHORIZED repair center and said they would call the person who owned the place. 10 minutes later I get a call from down south. They were a straight shooter. They don't want their name all over the internet so I will abide by that and they said if I was just trying to get a factory trigger job to make your Sigma's trigger "decent" then I would burn in heck. If I was telling the truth and it was so that my elderly mother could defend herself then they would do it but "I don't want my name all over the internet so promise me that you wont do that". I haven't and wont, I gave my word.

 

They actually Emailed a shipping label, the Sigma went in for a FACTORY trigger job, the turn around was about a week and it came back with 20 rounds fired through it and the trigger is smooth as silk. It also breaks at 5lbs and is comparable to a Glock. I slapped a CT laser on it, got my mom to the range once where she fired a whopping ten rounds but it serves the purpose. Basically it is where she knows it is, there is a German Shepherd to slow anybody down and its put the dot on the chest and shoot but DONT hit the dog! I also have the paperwork from S&W that the trigger was worked on and fixed by S&W. The paperwork literally says "Trigger pull heavy and out of spec". Repair heavy trigger and test for function.

 

I actually I gave my mom the Sigma, the 686 is useless to her, I spent $100 on a LG-406 Crimson Trace on EBay and get free batteries for life. Basically for $300 and moms able to defend herself. I have taken it to the range and sighted in the laser, put about 300 rounds through it and 20 Gold dots which is what it's loaded with. It's actually not a bad shooting gun.

 

If the trigger ever came into question on a 83 year old, I have the paperwork from Smith and Wesson saying they did the work. With mom watching Joe Kenda all the time she feels a lot more comfortable have something that she can defend herself with.


Edited by Mick G, 11 December 2017 - 07:19 AM.


#38 JTHunter

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:05 PM

What about taking into consideration mods made for a "senior citizen"?

 

An elderly relative of mine was having trouble cocking the hammer on their SP-101 (.38 Sp.) and even MORE trouble pulling the trigger in DA mode.  A gunsmith would not DO the work but did tell me what to do.  The coil spring in the butt was shortened by 3-4 turns, reducing the almost 30 lb. DA pull to a more manageable 10 lbs.

It is still hard for this relative but at least they can use the gun again.

 

I defy a prosecutor to go after a person in their late 80s for making it easier to protect themselves.

 

Typo?  I don't think any DA gun has a 30 lb pull.  10 I'll buy.

 

No typo.  When the gunsmith put the gauge on it and tested it, even he was dumb-founded by how excessive it was.  When he pulled the panels off of the butt, he said it appeared to be a stock spring as he could not find any indications that it had ever had any work done to it.  But, like I said, liability would not allow him to do personally what he talked me through.  Even I had trouble with it before the spring was altered but I was in my mid-50s at the time and I'm now over 60 with arthritic hands.


“We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.” - - Abraham Lincoln

“Small minds adhere to the letter of the law; great minds dispense Justice.” - - S. C. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

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#39 geomick

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:12 PM

 

What about taking into consideration mods made for a "senior citizen"?

 

An elderly relative of mine was having trouble cocking the hammer on their SP-101 (.38 Sp.) and even MORE trouble pulling the trigger in DA mode.  A gunsmith would not DO the work but did tell me what to do.  The coil spring in the butt was shortened by 3-4 turns, reducing the almost 30 lb. DA pull to a more manageable 10 lbs.

It is still hard for this relative but at least they can use the gun again.

 

I defy a prosecutor to go after a person in their late 80s for making it easier to protect themselves.

 

Typo?  I don't think any DA gun has a 30 lb pull.  10 I'll buy.

 

 

 

You've never tried the DA trigger on a Polish P-64 (9x18mm Mak), have you?



#40 JTHunter

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 03:39 PM


Typo?  I don't think any DA gun has a 30 lb pull.  10 I'll buy.

 

You've never tried the DA trigger on a Polish P-64 (9x18mm Mak), have you?

 

Nope. I haven't had the chance to handle a lot of different kinds of firearms, mostly the ones I own.  I have looked at several lever-action rifles before I got my Marlin 1894 in .357 two years ago.  It and a Keltec PMR-30 in .22 Mag. are the two most recent acquisitions and I was specifically looking for the Keltec, unlike the 1894.


“We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.” - - Abraham Lincoln

“Small minds adhere to the letter of the law; great minds dispense Justice.” - - S. C. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

Life member NAHC, Endowment member NRA

#41 Tolak

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 08:48 PM

What happens, or could happen to someone newer to firearms & concealed carry if they bought a used firearm that had some mods done to it, unknown to them, and they are involved in an incident?   A trigger taken down from a heavy factory pull to something more manageable, perhaps a sight upgrade, nothing crazy, but done before the used firearm was purchased?  Joe Newguy might take it to a shop to have it looked over to make sure it's safe, and come out with an answer of it being a safe firearm.     



#42 chislinger

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:30 AM

the almost 30 lb. DA pull

Holy crap, is that true? The SP-101 has a 30lb DA trigger pull?
"I'm not worried about following the U.S. Constitution." - Washington County, Alabama Judge Nick Williams

#43 chislinger

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:34 AM

You've never tried the DA trigger on a Polish P-64 (9x18mm Mak), have you?

I have one of those, the DA pull is horrendous. Ironically the SA trigger is as good as the DA trigger is bad, I shoot that little pistol very well in SA. Except I can't do more than a few mags because it has sharp edges that feel like they cut into your hand with every shot... should really get some shooting gloves for that one!
"I'm not worried about following the U.S. Constitution." - Washington County, Alabama Judge Nick Williams

#44 geomick

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:51 PM

 

You've never tried the DA trigger on a Polish P-64 (9x18mm Mak), have you?

I have one of those, the DA pull is horrendous. Ironically the SA trigger is as good as the DA trigger is bad, I shoot that little pistol very well in SA. Except I can't do more than a few mags because it has sharp edges that feel like they cut into your hand with every shot... should really get some shooting gloves for that one!

 

 

I put a 16# mainspring from Wolff into a P-64. The DA pull still exceeds the 12# maximum of my gauge, but it is manageable. SA is very nice.







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