What would you do if a mob multiple teenagers attacked you on the street?

[Mr. Fife]

I suspect the first CCL holder who shoots someone while defending their life in a mob attack will be raked through the coals by the city officials and the media.

[lockman]

I don’t know, running fantasy scenarios through your head seem like a prudent way to train for various probabilities and hone possible improvisation when needed.

[lockman]

I suspect the first CCL holder who shoots someone while defending their life in a mob attack will be raked through the coals by the city officials and the media.

 

Hopefully if you take out one, the others will cease and flee. It would be an interesting interview when you explain how you had to shoot 7 or 8 attackers, reloading, and getting the last few-holdouts that failed to disengage their attack. Fantasy senecio, yes, but within the realm of possible.

 

 

^ this ***

[spanishjames]

Although it opens up a big ol' can of worms, the mere drawing of a gun may get the mob to run away. Then you can deal with the consequences without getting pummeled by "teens"

[mikew]

My life is worth protecting.

 

There are plenty of instances of serious harm done to people just minding their own business, sometimes in a single punch.

[mikew]

It happens.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-2nd-teen-charged-in-2012-knockout-game-killing-gets-30-years-20140204-story.html

 

Early on July 10, 2012, Mora was in an alley in the 6300 block of North Artestian Avenue when Ayala, Malcolm and Jones attacked him. Jones first confronted Mora, asking him what he had in his pockets, prosecutors said.

Jones , now 18, announced, "I think I'm gonna knock out this (expletive)," and then started the video recorder on his cellphone, according to trial evidence. As Malcolm held the phone, Jones punched Mora once in the jaw. Mora fell and struck his head on concrete.

 

Think Kimm Foxx would prosecute these guys today?

 

 

[BigJim]

It wasn't that long ago gangs were playing the "knock out" game in downtown Chicago during rush hour. Metra was telling commuters to be vary cautious around the north entrance to Ogilvie station (under the viaduct) .

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

 

[richp]

Hi,

 

In today's Chicago, you can't ignore the possibility that members of the attacking group might pull their own guns on you...

 

FWIW.

 

Rich Phillips

[ChicagoRonin70]

Hi,

 

In today's Chicago, you can't ignore the possibility that members of the attacking group might pull their own guns on you...

 

FWIW.

 

Rich Phillips

 

In that case, I think it's clear that you have to assume that your life is at extreme risk when attacked by a group of violent teenage thugs and respond accordingly with complete commitment.

[Hipshot Percussion]

In that case, I think it's clear that you have to assume that your life is at extreme risk when attacked by a group of violent teenage thugs and respond accordingly with complete commitment.

 

The above emphasis was added by me. Don't be thinking of pulling it out and waving it around in the hopes it will scare them off. A group might take it away from you and then you are really in it up to your eyeballs.

[JTHunter]

Several years ago a mob of teens attacked an elderly gentleman riding his bicycle home from work in Decatur. Their goal was money for pizza. They robbed and beat the man so severely that he died. Still lacking funds for their pizza party they proceeded to beat another gentleman sitting on a park bench and rob him as well. The little darlings were caught and while in jail one of them attacked a guard and another beat an inmate so bad he lost an eye. The guy on the bike was my age, I`ve been armed ever since. Disparity of numbers is justification for action.

 

And, IIRC, attacking a "senior citizen" moves the charges up to felonies.

[JTHunter]

It wasn't that long ago gangs were playing the "knock out" game in downtown Chicago during rush hour. Metra was telling commuters to be vary cautious around the north entrance to Ogilvie station (under the viaduct) . Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

Teens were "playing" that game in St. Louis as well.

[chicagoresident]

I have yet to see anyone mount a successful self defense argument against a mob. Yet there are plenty of incidents where the mob wins. Even law enforcement and military personnel have had difficult cases to defend in these situations.

 

Ossian Sweet is the only one I know acquitted defending his house against a mob, but that was almost 100 years ago and done while on his property. While black, Ossian was a doctor so he had money and connections.

 

Michael Strickland and James Fields are 2 recent ones that came to mind. In the court of public opinion they were both guilty before even going to trial. Plenty of video evidence showing they were not the original aggressor, but disparity of force found them both guilty.

 

Here's the catch 22 of a mob situation, if you shoot before getting injured you're guilty. If you run someone over in a mob with a car you'll be found guilty. Even if they are doing damage to the car and attempting to gain entry, but not doing damage to you you're guilty. The time when deadly force is allowed is past the time when you can successfully deploy it on a mob situation.

 

It will be hard to identify who the aggressor is in a mob. You shoot your aggressor in a mob and you're probably going to hit someone the prosecuter will argue wasn't an aggressor. Worse, they will probably be right.

 

The district attorney/states attorney will scrounge up your online history, just like with Fields and Strickland. Posts like this will be used against you. Remember, James Fields charge of "first degree murder" was built up because he posted a meme about a car hitting bicyclists while being late for work. Among other online postings. Without an online history that easily would've been a 2nd degree murder trial.

 

You thought about shooting someone in a mob, you made a post about it. In a publicized/politicized case that could be the difference between first and second degree murder. This is why some of us roll our eyes at self defense fantasy scenarios, they do more harm then educate.

 

If you have this concern I suggest taking self defense (both hand combat and firearm combat). That way if you find yourself in this situation you have all the tools to use EQUAL force against the actual aggressor. This will also improve your discipline to instinctively make the right decision. The key to beating a mob is to not be in a mob. Law enforcement has CS grenades, they are the most effective tool against mobs, you can't own them.

[thobart]

I have no idea what I would do. I guess if it comes up I will find out. I really dislike the what would you do conversations on this forum as I feel that you will do what you have trained to do. If you have not done any training then you will not do much of anything for the most part. If "you" are asking for advice on what to do? I would recommend some Krav training that is intended for this type of scenario. While I really dont have a problem with some of the subjects I do feel that the OP runs into far more issues then I did when I lived in the city.

 

I would ask myself what in my opinion is a better question. Why do I have to be where this is happening? The best gunfight to have is the one you are not involved in.

 

Also what magic are you going to have when faced with a mob at close range. You kind of need armour tear gas and numbers to ensure getting through that type of situation. Best you can hope for is getting out of it once it starts. Pistols and close range is not really a good choice here but may be the least bad choice if you can isolate a path out.

[TriumphRider]

Pew!, Pew!, Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!.......... (darnit, reload...) Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!Pew!

[drumgod]

... If you run someone over in a mob with a car you'll be found guilty. Even if they are doing damage to the car and attempting to gain entry, but not doing damage to you you're guilty. ...

 

This point at least is provably untrue:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Stuntz_gang_assault

 

One of the "mob" was a off duty NY officer no less... and he was convicted.

[NRApistol]

If you have this concern I suggest taking self defense (both hand combat and firearm combat). That way if you find yourself in this situation you have all the tools to use EQUAL force against the actual aggressor.

Crap. If I`m attacked the last thing I`m going to do is use EQUAL force. This is not some type of regulated prize fight. I want to win, a FAIR fight means nothing when it comes to survival. I want SUPERIOR force on my side.

[chicagoresident]

 

... If you run someone over in a mob with a car you'll be found guilty. Even if they are doing damage to the car and attempting to gain entry, but not doing damage to you you're guilty. ...

 

This point at least is provably untrue:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Stuntz_gang_assault

 

One of the "mob" was a off duty NY officer no less... and he was convicted.

He was pulled from the vehicle, beaten, and still had to hire a high dollar law firm to defend himself. He failed to stop a mob attack. He's lucky they weren't a real biker gang or he would've been dead.

 

I also remember when the video came out, public opinion originally painted the driver as the aggressor. If he hadn't been beaten how different do you think that trial would've been? Against Gloria Alred no less.

 

 

Kind of reminds me of the Gary Fadden incident. He accrued $45k in debt paying H&K's best lawyer in 1984 money. H&k paid the other half of that. His aggressor were armed, had records, were DUI'ing, and he still had to fight a highly politicized prosecution.

Situation: A road-rage incident escalates into a deadly pursuit.

 

Lesson: Keep communications as handy as your gun. Bad guys fear resolutely armed people, not weapons. Remember that full auto can stop a fight--but start an indictment.

 

It's amazing how often a criminal will say something unbelievably stupid just before he forces a decent citizen to kill him. For many years I've been piecing together a book subtitled "Famous Last Words of Scumbags." The working title will come from the most memorable such incident: " You and Your Automatic Rifle!"

 

The shooter was Gary Fadden. The incident took place some 20 years ago. Only now is Gary comfortable speaking of it, in hopes that others may learn from lessons that cost him very deeply.

 

 

 

The Incident

 

Sunday, February 24, 1984, approximately 2 PM. Gary Fadden, 26, and his lovely 22 year old fiancee are driving from a birthday party in Martinsburg, WV, into Virginia to look at some property for what they hope will be their starter home after their marriage. It's a bitterly cold day, and with the winter coats in the back of a new '84 Ford F-250 supercab 4WD diesel pickup, the Pendleton-clad Fadden looks from a distance like a harmless Yuppie. That means he and the pretty brunette look like prey to another kind of person.

 

Heading east on Rt. 50, they are passed by a Harley-Davidson motorcycle with two people astride, the operator cutting in front of him so sharply that he has to brake suddenly. Gary comments to his fiancee how cold they must be riding a bike on a low 30s day, and that driving as carelessly as he is, the cyclist needs to worry about sudden patches of ice.

 

A few minutes later, he spots a Chevy pickup in his rearview mirrors. It contains three people. One passenger is gesturing to him to pull over. Gary doesn't know what these scruffy guys want and he ignores them. But then he sees the passenger waving a knife, and the driver bringing up a revolver.

 

Gary says to his fiancee, in what will probably be the understatement of his life, "We've got a bit of a problem here."

 

 

 

Pursuit

 

It is 1984, long before the universal coming of cell phones, and there is no other communications in the vehicle. They are entering Middleburg, a town of perhaps 800, and stop at a red light. Behind them, Gary can see both males exit their truck and run toward him. The driver's hand is actually on Gary's door handle when he pops the clutch and sends his new truck screeching through the intersection against the light. The two men run back to their older pickup, and the chase is on.

 

They're almost on his bumper. Gary accelerates, hitting open road now, zig-zagging between reaching 95 miles an hour when the speed governor cuts in. Not only are the pursuers keeping pace but he sees the driver aiming a revolver at him out his window. Honking his horn and flashing his lights when he runs into a cluster of automobiles, passing them sometimes on the shoulder of the road and spraying rooster-tails of gravel, Gary still cannot elude the truck behind him.

 

Gary is desperately looking for a police car he can flag down. He doesn't see one. The chase has gone for 22 miles now and they're getting into a more compact area again. Coming up is an intersection tic knows well: he goes through it every day on his way to work. Even on Sunday it will be clogged. He forms a plan quickly: if the light is in his favor, he'll go through it and keep going, hoping to find police in a more populated area. If the light is against him, he'll turn right, and make for the plant where he works on Chantilly Road.

 

The light stays red. Gary cuts hard right, heading for what he hopes will be the sanctuary of the workplace. Behind him, he can see that the pursuers haven't given up an inch. "I've got my pass card through the gates and the front door," he tells his fiancee urgently. "We'll get into the building and we can hide. They can't find us. We'll call the cops from there."

 

He pulls into the front area of the plant, the automatic mechanism taking an achingly long time to raise the gate. As the gate opens, the pursuing truck comes to a stop behind his, both men jumping out and running to Gary's Ford, their hands clawing at his door handles. He guns the engine and gels away from them, sweeping up to the front door and locking up the brakes in a skid.

 

The plant is Heckler and Koch.

 

Gary Fadden is a salesman for HK, and among the rest of their firearms, he sells machine guns. In the truck with him is a competitor's weapon he has acquired to test, a Ruger AC556, the selective-fire assault version of the .223 Mini-14. He grabs it now as he throws open the truck door, hoping to hold them off at gunpoint. lie knows his fiancee can't make it to the building's door now, and he screams to her to get down on the floor of the Ford.

 

 

 

The Shooting

 

The passenger is running toward him, an average size man in ratty clothes with stringy hair, a long beard, and an expression of absolute rage.

 

The selector switch and manual safety of the AC556 are in two different locations. Gary has not yet fired this weapon and, though he has taken off the safety, he doesn't know whether the switch is set for semi, three-shot burst, or full auto. He yells "Stop or I'll shoot," points the muzzle upward, and pulls the trigger for a warning shot.

 

The weapon is set on full automatic. Everything is going into deep slow motion, and Gary is aware that the Ruger spits a burst of nine shots before he can get his finger back off the trigger.

 

There is no effect whatsoever. The attacker is still running at him, perhaps ten yards away and closing fast, reaching for knives at his belt with each hand. The assailant screams, " you and your high powered rifle! I'm gonna kill you mother ers!"

 

And Gary Fadden has run out of time. He lowers the Ruger, points it at the charging knifer, and pulls the trigger one more time. in the ethereal slow motion of profound tachypsychia, Gary can see the spent .223 shells arcing lazily out of the mechanism. He stops the burst, aware that six shots have been fired, as the man in front of him falls heavily to the ground.

 

Gary moves quickly, putting a big brick planter between himself and the onrushing pickup as cover. The truck stops and the driver, the larger of the two bearded men, shrieks. " you! You killed one of the brothers! You shot him, you mother er!" Gary's weapon is level and ready, but this time instead of waving the revolver, the man looks as if he's trying to hide it in the cab of his truck. Gary can see now that the third person in the truck, the one who has always stayed in the cab, is a woman.

 

And then, the police are there. "They've got guns," Gary shouts to the officers disgorging from two patrol cars. He sets his rifle down and steps back as the officers swarm the pickup truck, taking the surviving man and woman into custody. In a moment, a cop is standing with Gary. "I did it," Gary says. The cop answers, "Did what?" "I shot that man." The officer picks up the AC556. "It's loaded," Gary warns, "Do you want me to unload it'?" The policeman answers. "No, I'll do it. Why don't you sit down?"

 

Gary Fadden sits on the curb. For a moment, it seems as if the whole bizarre nightmare is over. Unfortunately, it has only begun.

 

 

 

Aftermath

 

The man he had shot. Billy "Too Loose" Hamilton, was dead. He had been hit by all six rounds of Winchester 55 grain FMJ, headstamped "'WCC81." One bullet had struck behind the lateral midline in the instant that he turned away from the gunfire, taking out a chunk of his spine as is skidded across his back from side to side. This would be interpreted later by the prosecutor as having been "shot in the back."

 

The partner, who went by the name of "Papa Zoot," had gotten his weapons out of his hands by the time police arrived. In the front of the five-year-old Chevy pickup that had chased Fadden for more than 20 miles, police found a .22 auto pistol and a four-inch Smith & Wesson L-frame .357 Magnum. The revolver had three live and three empty cartridges in the cylinder. More fired brass was on the floor, and a plastic bag with more live ammo was open on the seat. Though Fadden heard no shots and no bullets hit his truck, he was convinced then and now that they were shooting at him during the chase.

 

Hamilton's two knives, a Schrade folding hunter and a nondescript fixed blade, were found with his corpse.

 

Gary Fadden was arrested that night and charged with 1st degree murder. His family raised $60,000 bail. He hired DC attorney Gerry Treanor to defend him. Treanor, at Gary's request, retained John Farnam and I as expert witnesses. Today, Gary remembers, "Two prosecutors wouldn't touch it until the third took it. It was all political because of the automatic weapon."

 

The weeklong trial took place in October of 1984. Word had reached Gary that Papa Zoot had bought a .30/06 rifle and sworn a "blood oath" to kill him. I was driving toward Fairfax County when I got the message from Gary's lawyer that John and I wouldn't be needed because the prosecution had self-destructed.

 

On the stand, Papa Zoot and the woman had testified that Gary had tried to run their biker brother off the road, and they had just followed 22 miles to get his license tag. Defense lawyer Treanor took them apart on cross-examination. An undercover detective broke his cover to testify that the deceased and Papa Zoot "put a bomb in my car. They like to rough people up." The prosecutor made such a show of waving the machine gun that the judge made a point of instructing the jury that the death weapon had nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the shooting was self-defense. The jury learned that Gary purchased the AC-556 personally and that it was perfectly legal to possess the weapon.

 

By the start of trial, the charge had been dropped to second-degree murder, and as the trial collapsed around the prosecutor's ears, he offered a plea to manslaughter, which Gary flatly rejected. At the end, when it was announced that the jury had found Gary Fadden Not Guilty on all counts, Fadden recalls that the self-same prosecutor snapped--in open court, in front of Gary's mother--"'You've let a murderer loose!"

 

"'H&K protected me," says Gary. "They picked up the tab for about half of my legal bills, and got all the publicity for it, until I quit a few years later. Florian Deltgen (at that time CEO at HK) told me after an argument with the vice president that one or the other of us probably had to go, and the vice president wasn't going anywhere. I accepted a job offer from Beretta USA and then resigned from H&K. Deltgen stuck me with the remaining bill, which I paid off at 10% interest." The bill had amounted to more than $45,000. Gary was 34 years old before he had paid everything back.

 

Dr. Deltgen is no longer with Heckler and Koch.

 

 

 

Lessons

 

Have communication. In 1984, only the rich had phones in their cars. Today, Gary Fadden is never without a charged-up cell phone. He knows that if he'd had one that day he could have called the police, who would have been able to interdict his pursuers before the thing became a killing situation.

 

Flight can trigger pursuit. Prey that flees inflames the pursuit instinct of predators. This is why we teach our children never to run from snarling dogs. Gary Fadden did what society told him to do when facing criminals: he ran. They chased. By the time they caught up with him, Billy Hamilton was in such a rage to kill that he could not be deterred.

 

Understand how deterrence really works. Papa Zoot and Too Loose had guns and ammo and knives in their truck with them. In Gary's truck were a Remington Nylon 66.22 rifle (for plinking, and never touched during the incident), a 9mm HK VP70Z pistol, and the AC556 with enough ammo for perhaps four full magazines. None were loaded at the start. The pistol was loaded and placed in the console during the chase, and the rifle was at that point loaded and placed conspicuously on the dashboard by Gary in hopes that it would deter file pursuit. It did not.

 

When Gary Fadden stepped out of his new Ford at the climax of the chase, most of us would have seen him as an intimidating presence. The man stands six feet eight and weighed 260 pounds at the time, and he was holding a machine gun. His pursuers were unimpressed.

 

Later identified as belonging to one of the "big four" outlaw motorcycle clubs, Too Loose and Papa Zoot were members of an armed subculture themselves. They did not fear guns. Zoot was about 6'4" and 240 himself, and neither man feared big guys dressed like something off the cover of an L.L. Bean catalog. It is critical to understand this: Criminals don't fear guns. Criminals fear resolutely armed men or women they believe will actually shoot them.

 

22 miles of running away from them had left these wolves convinced that they were dealing with a large sheep, not the sharp-fanged sheepdog Gary Fadden turned out to be. Testimony that "they liked to rough people up" shows that they had a lot of ego invested in brutalizing others. Perhaps Hamilton, in his last moment on earth, took Fadden's warning burst as an indication of unwillingness to shoot him. Toxicology screen after death showed Hamilton to have a .19% blood alcohol content. This is a level of intoxication consistent with inhibitions being at their lowest. Gary Fadden sums it up today, "The mouse had run, and the cat was loose. Physical size was no deterrent. The gun was no deterrent with these people. If you pull a gun, you'd better be ready to use it."

 

Politically incorrect "assault weapons" make politically incorrect defendants. Though he didn't say it in so many words, prosecutor Jack Robbins' case against Fadden seemed to be, "I say, Muffy, people of breeding simply don't shoot criminals with machine guns in Fairfax County! Now, had he used a civilized weapon like a Browning Superposed ... and preferably shot him on the rise ... "

 

You and I know that Class III holders are the ultimate "card carrying good guys and gals." That particular card says they have been investigated for six months by the Federal government and been found trustworthy to possess machine guns. Unfortunately, most of the public in the jury pool, and most politically motivated prosecutors, don't know that. Every self-defense shooting I've run across with a Class III weapon, however justified, has at the very least ended with the shooter facing a grand jury. Asked what he thinks would have happened if he'd shot Hamilton with a Remington 870 Wingmaster instead, Fadden replies with certainty, "I would have gone home that night. I've told dozens of people since, 'Do not use a Class III weapon for personal defense."' Today, the guns Gary is likely to have in his car have neutral images: an M-1 .30 carbine, and a 10mm Glock 20 pistol.

 

Be there for your friends. It was stunning how many people he had trusted shunned Gary after the shooting, and particularly, after his indictment. He cherishes those who stood beside him through the ordeal, particularly Jim Stone and Rick DeMilt and, most particularly, knife-maker Al Mar.

 

Much later, after his AC556 had been returned to him by the courts, Gary gave that gun to Al Mar, another man who appreciated a fine weapon of any kind. On its stock was a brass plate engraved "To Al Mar, Because You Understand."

 

Gary says, "For twenty years now, I've cherished every morning I've gotten up, because I earned every moment of my life. I fought for it."

 

After Al Mar's death, Gary Fadden scraped up the money to buy his knife business, and he is CEO of Al Mar Knives to this day. One good man carrying on the work of another. It seems fitting.

 

COPYRIGHT 2004 Publishers' Development Corporation

 

COPYRIGHT 2004 Gale Group

 

 

 

Bibliography for: ""F you and your high powered rifle!" The Gary Fadden incident - The Ayoob files"

 

Massad Ayoob ""F you and your high powered rifle!" The Gary Fadden incident - The Ayoob files". American Handgunner. FindArticles.com. 01 Jul, 2012.

 

COPYRIGHT 2004 Publishers' Development Corporation

 

COPYRIGHT 2004 Gale Group

[cybermgk]

What would you do if a mob of multiple teenagers attacked you on the street? Would you take the beating or pull out your gun and start shooting? They are punching and kicking you but you don't see a weapon on them. I ask this question because it is a common occurrence in Chicago and a lot of unarmed victims just take a severe beating because they out numbered and over powered and the perps get away many times.

Why I'd flash the Bodily Harm/physical violence Free Zone placard at them.

[spanishjames]

Some people think that an unarmed criminal poses no threat. Tell that to this guy:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/south-loop-fatal-beating/

[vito]

Even a young, healthy man can end up dead or severely disabled after a mob beating. An older person, with known ailments, would be at even greater risk. And if so attacked, I might stand little chance with my compact 9mm and one extra mag, giving me a total of 15 rounds, but I think I would gain some satisfaction that I tried to fight as a man and not cower in a ball on the ground hoping for some type of mercy that is unlikely to occur. As far as staying away from places where such an attack is likely, I of course agree. But the reality today is that such an attack could happen anywhere. I don't often go into the city of Chicago, but when I do it most likely is for a visit to the Art Institute or the Shedd, or a visit to one old friend that lives in the Gold Coast area. All of these are "good" places, but none is immune from a group of rampaging thugs who think that they are safe because of their numbers to attack with impunity. So I will stay armed and resist an attack to the utmost of my ability and worry about the consequences of a courtroom much later in the day.

[chicagoresident]

I would like to see the one case someone successfully defended themselves against a mob, both from severe harm and the legal system. Not as a challenge, but to see what someone did in a situation and came out ahead (I.E. not getting grabbed and relying on the mercy of the mob to stop the beating before death, or playing out some self defense fantasy).

 

I've found a few from civil rights movements in the 20s and 60s, but not much after. There were the roof Koreans and the LA riots, but that was shooting from private property defending from looting and arson (forceable felony), not a mob.

https://youtu.be/Py4AMYebHGI

Not exactly the situation the OP is referring to.

[357]

 

Something happening 3 times does not make it a common occurrence. You have a higher chance of getting hit by lightning. I'm not seeing threads started about how to protect yourself from lightning.

Because this isn't the "Natural Disasters" forum, it's Illinois Carry, as in, carry a gun to defend yourself. Stop with the straw man arguments.

Wow, have you heard of flash mobs? It happens all the time and in downtown Chicago too and has happened at the Water Place Tower mall several times on the magnificent mile and they wouldn't change their policy and impose a curfew on January 4th if it was a higher chance of being hit by lightning. It's not reported by the controlled media because it doesn't fit their agenda and is politically incorrect.

 

https://wgntv.com/2019/01/04/teen-curfew-at-water-tower-place-goes-into-effect-friday/

[Rangerdeepv]

I’d get butt naked and then chase them back.

 

I would be arrested for sure then!

[drumgod]

Yes, they "got him" in the end. That's not the point. You are telling people that, even if you are justifiably in fear for your life, you will always be found guilty by the courts when you defend yourself in a mob situation. That is not the case. If you were saying that the chances of getting out unscathed are very low, that I would agree with.

 

Edited to add that by unscathed I mean both physically and legally.

[chislinger]

Michael Strickland and James Fields are 2 recent ones that

… have absolutely nothing in common with the scenario in the OP.

[chislinger]

And by the way, those mobs of teenagers are robbing their victims. It's a forcible felony, and Illinois law specifically allows use of deadly force if there is reasonable belief that it's necessary to stop it. And there is no prosecutor in Chicago who would charge the person who did, not even Foxx.

[Twostarrz]

Fezzik: Well, I haven't fought one person for so long. I've been specialised in groups, battling gangs for local charities, that kind of thing.

You use different moves when you're fighting half a dozen people, than when you only have to be worried about one.

 

Thought this quote was fitting.

[richp]

Hi,

 

It's behind the Sun Times paywall, but here is a tidbit about the mass disruptions and attacks at Watertower Place.

 

The new “parental guidance required” policy at Water Tower Place has been so smoothly implemented and so successful in eliminating “disruptive behavior,” it should be expanded to seven-days-a-week during summer months, the local alderman said Monday.

 

Ald. Brian Hopkins (2nd) said the proposed summer expansion would go a long way toward discouraging what has become a perennial problem when school is out: marauding groups of young people harassing, intimidating, robbing and attacking Michigan Avenue shoppers."

 

Illustrating why this isn't exactly a theoretical question...

 

FWIW.

 

Rich Phillips

[chicagoresident]

 

Michael Strickland and James Fields are 2 recent ones that

have absolutely nothing in common with the scenario in the OP.

They differ only in the OP was fantasy, James Fields and Michael Strickland were reality. Let that sink in, it's why I bring up force disparity and force equality. It's more then just strength, arms, and crimes.

 

There are certain social contracts that determine who is the victim and who is the victimizer before the violence even takes place. Can a teenager kill a full grown man? Sure. If you find yourself surrounded by a flash mob of "kids" and you yourself have not gotten robbed or punched, you shoot a "threat", you will be forever remembered as a child murderer. You wait until you have been punched and robbed (usually synonymous with mugging in Chicago), there is a good chance you will not be able to defend yourself.

 

It's a catch 22, but I can say with certainty a deadly object, be it a gun or a car, is not the right tool for the job while inside the mob. Situational awareness will help you avoid that.