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#1 cola490

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 01:32 PM

Here is a goofy question, can a owner of a business that is posted as a GFZ, authorize his employees who have CCL to carry in the business?

#2 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 01:39 PM

Sure. He would be hypocritical, but the employees would be FOID carrying, wouldn't even need a concealed carry license. 


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#3 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 01:40 PM

(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm,
 

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#4 spec5

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 06:03 PM

It's the owners business he can give his employees or anyone else permission. Not unlike making you pay for a meal or drink but not requiring employees to pay. They can give employees discounts even if customers must pay full price. It would also be up to owner/employer to ask the person to leave, have them charged with trespass or have them charged under the act.
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#5 Hipshot Percussion

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 06:12 PM

If the owner of the business owns the property, yes.  If the business owner does not own the property, no.  The owner of the property has the right to post the building, not necessarily the business owner, unless it's laid out in the lease


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#6 spec5

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 07:08 PM

Here is a goofy question, can a owner of a business that is posted as a GFZ, authorize his employees who have CCL to carry in the business?


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#7 soylentgreen

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 11:36 AM

If the owner of the business owns the property, yes.  If the business owner does not own the property, no.  The owner of the property has the right to post the building, not necessarily the business owner, unless it's laid out in the lease

 

According to what Alpha posted, a "fixed place of business" would be legal even if the property is leased. Wouldn't it?



#8 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 12:09 PM

 

If the owner of the business owns the property, yes.  If the business owner does not own the property, no.  The owner of the property has the right to post the building, not necessarily the business owner, unless it's laid out in the lease

 

According to what Alpha posted, a "fixed place of business" would be legal even if the property is leased. Wouldn't it?

 

Hip shot is referencing the concealed carry licensing act. I am referencing the criminal code. Take away the concealed carry license, it muddies the waters. Even without a concealed carry license, with only a FOID, you can carry on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission. 
 

Signage be damned. This was true before the passage of the concealed carry licensing act. 

Carrying, without the owners explicit permission, would require a concealed carry license and a lack of signage prohibiting the carrying of the legal handgun. 


Edited by AlphaKoncepts aka CGS, 29 November 2018 - 12:10 PM.

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#9 soylentgreen

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 03:46 PM

Yes, exactly. That's my understanding, Mr. Koncepts. A fixed place of business is a fixed place of business. I don't think it matters who owns the property. It's under control of the lessee for all intents and purposes.

 

The office I work in is leased. My employer has placed a non-compliant sign at the entrance and has a "no weapons" policy in the employee handbook. If I carry in the office and are discovered and the police come, I believe I will be immune from arrest and prosecution.  However, even with a CCL, my employer could fire me for violation of policy...even though the policy says I may not carry weapons on "company property". It's not company property! They lease it. But, I'm 100% certain if I were fired for a violation of the weapons policy, my appeals would be ignored by the legal system. The property is under the control of the lessee.



#10 civilone

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 04:32 PM

For conceal carry, once the sign is posted it would seem to be higher on the legal food chain than the owner's permission.  If the police are called about someone concealing carrying on the property, it would seem that the police would enforce the sign, and ignore the permission of the owner.  If the owner does not want non-employees to conceal carry then a non compliant sign could be posted.  For FOID carry and open carry I believe that the sign does not apply.  The owner could give permission for employees to FOID carry and/or open carry along with a compliant sign to prevent non-employees from conceal carrying..



#11 Euler

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 05:00 PM

...  If the police are called about someone concealing carrying on the property, it would seem that the police would enforce the sign, and ignore the permission of the owner.  ...  The owner could give permission for employees to FOID carry and/or open carry along with a compliant sign to prevent non-employees from conceal carrying.


I agree. In Illinois, the sign is the law for concealed carry; and the employer doesn't get to pick to whom the law applies, customers vs. employees. Police would enforce the law, which applies to everyone.

Aside: An interesting case would be if a one-person shop carried concealed where he put up a sign. Legally he's prohibiting himself from carrying, then breaking the law. I'd bet it happens.

I also agree about FOID and open carry, although FOID carry is a gray area legally for customers. There's no case law for customers yet AFAIK. For employees with the owner's permission, they should be okay, like a bank wouldn't be prohibited from having armed guards open carrying if it put up a sign, for example.
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#12 Lou

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 05:05 PM

...  If the police are called about someone concealing carrying on the property, it would seem that the police would enforce the sign, and ignore the permission of the owner.  ...  The owner could give permission for employees to FOID carry and/or open carry along with a compliant sign to prevent non-employees from conceal carrying.

I agree. In Illinois, the sign is the law for concealed carry; and the employer doesn't get to pick to whom the law applies, customers vs. employees. Police would enforce the law, which applies to everyone.Aside: An interesting case would be if a one-person shop carried concealed where he put up a sign. Legally he's prohibiting himself from carrying, then breaking the law. I'd bet it happens.I also agree about FOID and open carry, although FOID carry is a gray area legally for customers. There's no case law for customers yet AFAIK. For employees with the owner's permission, they should be okay, like a bank wouldn't be prohibited from having armed guards open carrying if it put up a sign, for example.

Kinda like Jewel foods putting up sign with fine print that it only applies to employees and vendors.

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#13 soylentgreen

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:48 PM

The Jewel sign likely applies to no one as far as the law is concerned. The one's I see don't have a black border and have a clear background and all the printing is in red and it's the wrong size. I don't recall if it has the statute listed.

 

But Jewel can use it as a basis for firing an employee who is discovered to be carrying.



#14 cola490

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 03:04 PM

The Jewel sign likely applies to no one as far as the law is concerned. The one's I see don't have a black border and have a clear background and all the printing is in red and it's the wrong size. I don't recall if it has the statute listed.
 
But Jewel can use it as a basis for firing an employee who is discovered to be carrying.

Correct, the Jewel signs is non-compliant, legally it applies to no one. It applies to Jewel employees as a condition of employment.

#15 Gamma

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 12:26 PM

The innane nature of Illinois laws is such that in the situation you describe, having a CCL may mean you're prohibited from carrying, but if one does NOT have a CCL, then one could carry with permission. The sign only applies to FCCA licensees (and arguably LEOSA/IROCC).

Edited by Gamma, 01 December 2018 - 12:32 PM.

Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#16 soylentgreen

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:59 AM

Like most laws, there are always unintended consequences...which is a good argument for fewer laws.






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