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Another instructor skirting the system


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#1 solareclipse2

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 06:16 PM

https://www.reddit.c...hours_and_cost/

 

 

 

I am making this post on a throwaway account. I dont want to be ridiculed for my decision to take this class, compared to the state requirement of a 16 hour course (illinois)

The course I took was given to me by a certified Sheriff In Illinois. He quoted and charged me $420. This covered the CCL license fee within the state ($150). It also covered the fee for the range, the 30 rounds of ammo that I shot at the range. And the rest went to his fee for the class. (Roughly 230$). I broke it down as follows: $17.74 for 30rds of 9mm (bought at a discount for bulk order), 20$ range fee, 150$ state fee, 232.26$ his cut for the class.

 

Why: So I took this cheating version of the class because in my line of work I dont have the time of day to offer to the state. Therefore i've been putting off my class for some time. However at my job I overheard my boss referring someone to this class. I asked him for the credentials of the guy giving the class and I too become referred to him. I took the class and left the office, 3 hours after it started, with me completing the course in the eyes of the state. Besides this training, I have been given "family style" training from my father. What he seemed adequate to teach me on how to fire a gun. I also went to a free 2 hour course before I ever owned a gun to teach me the proper handling of a gun that my father may have missed.

 

What: So at my class, I arrived and filled out some paperwork, He signed the CCL permit paperwork approving I took the class, and I signed it too. After that, I went into his consulting room where he had me handle my firearm, as well as his glock and p226. He watched as I handed my firearm to him, cleared, and got a sense of my knowledge of firearms. And he taught me according to what I may not know already. He discussed when it is ok to fire a gun at someone, when I would be allowed to draw my firearm and allowed me to ask any questions I had at any time. He gave his opinion on where to carry (6 o'clock) However I prefer AIWB and will continue to train and carry at such point on my body. He then talked with me about proper care, proper stance, and how to handle the firearm. I.e Cleaning & storing my guns. We also talked a little bit about the type of ammo, grain, what matters and why in ammo selection. (I plan to carry 124-146 grain hollow point ammunition.) I asked questions pertaining about the knowledge when I could carry into specific buildings. He told me to make sure I read the stickers carefully. As sometimes they only refer to employees, not customers as well as knowing the laws directly about this information. i.e no gov. buildings, schools, etc. One thing we also touched over was Bullet drop, aiming, and he noted I most likely wont need to consider bullet drop too much as Defense often happens within close range. Never the less he notified me about how to aim for longer ranged targets. We discussed grip aswell.

 

Cont. After the classroom portion of his class, we went to a local range to practice. He had probably 1000 rounds of 30rd boxes of ammo in his trunk, and grabbed one for me to shoot. After referring to his training in the class and his correcting of my grip at the range, I shot all 3 guns available to me. 10 rounds in each gun, all 9mm. I didn't miss a single shot from 15ft. And my shots were quite accurate for my shooting. Something that I've been struggling to do by myself or when shooting with my father. This leads me to note, I improved my grip and stance quite a bit while shooting already. At this point We cleaned up, and left for the classroom again. Where he got my photo, and sent the proper info to the state to being the process of me getting my license.

 

Overall, im happy I will get my ccl. If I had the opportunity I would take the proper class of 16 hours to get the adequate state required training. However I also feel comfortable around firearms, so im not too worried that I cant at this time, plus I feel like I did learn enough to properly carry, and In my opinion I have the right mindset to do so. I do plan to practice by myself at least every two weeks at a range. But I also would like to take a physical course to help me better train for the pressure involved in CCW use. And How to properly, safely, and quickly draw AIWB. This stuff I cant guarantee is trained in the actual Illinois class, so perhaps I missed on on training I want for a more convenient class. Im not sure.

Please give me your opinions on the matter, did I make a Dumb, stupid decision by cutting the class short, spending more money and saving my time? The opportunity cost is too great in my eyes to take off two full days of work for a CCL.

 

Do other states have the same requirements for obtaining the CCL, or is the required 16 hour class a joke in many of your eyes? Thanks!


Edited by solareclipse2, 10 January 2018 - 06:17 PM.

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#2 mauserme

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 06:23 PM

Consider me skeptical. 


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#3 bmurph44

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 06:31 PM

IMO.....If caught and whoever took the class knowingly trying to cheat the system should have their CCL revoked permanently, and the instructor.

#4 bmurph44

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 06:33 PM

Consider me skeptical.


And yes I agree, it’s the internet anyone can be anything anywhere.

#5 soundguy

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 08:19 PM

 

Consider me skeptical.


And yes I agree, it’s the internet anyone can be anything anywhere.

 

 

A good friend took a 16 hour class that lasted from 8am until a little after noon just months ago. Found out about it from some buddies at work. He doesn't feel bad about it at all.

 

Alas... I am told only students may complain to ISP about inadequate training.


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#6 DomG

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 08:25 PM

As a counter- what other enumerated right requires training, a fee and a license?

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#7 soundguy

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 08:49 PM

As a counter- what other enumerated right requires training, a fee and a license?

 

While I agree with you, it's a different argument than who can be allowed cheat in the existing scheme.

 

The student who pays too much for a shortened illegitimate course is being cheated by the instructor, in this case (if true) a Sheriff who thinks he knows better than the state and thinks he can get away with it.

 

If true, I think he should lose his training credentials, refund all of his cheated students (who will lose their CCP until they pass a legitimate course) and possibly lose his day job for committing fraud or something. He is counting on none of his students ever coming forward.


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#8 chicagoresident

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 09:11 PM

As a counter- what other enumerated right requires training, a fee and a license?

Agreed. Honestly, the only thing that bothers me about instructors doing this is at some point they will be caught and all the CCL's they signed off on will be voided. That is the only reason I took the by the book class.

But, I am glad my by the book instructor made the most out of our time. The first 8 hours was a really good legal review and the second day/8 hours was all spent at a private range.

#9 wtr100

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 10:12 PM

um so how did the instructor get the $150 bribe to IL for the permission slip?  

 

um an actual elected sheriff  maybe a deputy ...   


Edited by wtr100, 10 January 2018 - 10:14 PM.

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#10 VannDaddy

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 11:03 PM

My class was the full 16 hours including range time. The second day was a total waste of time other than at the range. My instructor for the second day was also a Sheriffs deputy. His coverage of use of force was garbage compared to instructor the day before. His opinions on the FCCL law was intellectually lazy and his grasp of the law was cursory at best. He acted as a know-it-all when clearly he was taken off guard by real world examples. I feel if you have a good understanding of the law, use of force, and you are proficient and safe handling a firearm, taking three hours to go over all of the pertinent information is just as good, if not better, than spending 16 hours listening to people who never read the law and/or never fired a gun ask beginners questions.

Edited by VannDaddy, 10 January 2018 - 11:04 PM.


#11 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 08:20 AM

Consider me skeptical. 

Skeptical, why?

3k instructors in the state, the odds are someone is still cheating.


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#12 Smallbore

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 08:44 AM

Recently had a ccl holder come to us for instruction drawing from a holster. My wife was working with him. She first quizzed him on some basic pistol knowledge. Not good. She instructed him to load his magazine. He did not know how. She had to back up to square one to teach basic pistol.
He was trained by a sheriff in the Danville area.
Too many Americans around our nation have no respect for our laws and are willing to make a mockery of them. When those charged with enforcing our laws disrespect them, then we have a serious state and national problem.

#13 oohrah

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:02 AM

Texas is 4-6 hours including range time, used to be 8. Does not include weapon instruction, you are expected to already know how to shoot and handle a weapon. So a lot of instructors offer basic classes as well.

We had one instructor signing completion certificates without doing the training. One women complained to the state and all of his students licenses were revoked, and he was prosecuted. Other instructors aided the prosecutor. We need to be vigilant and protect our rights.. it is scumbags like this that harm our cause.

Edited by oohrah, 11 January 2018 - 09:03 AM.

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#14 biggun 1

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:28 AM

as far as i know illinois is the only state requieing 16 hours of training.yes it sucks but it is the law so we must follow the law to recieve our ccl.if an instructor decides he does not need to follow the law he is cheating the law and his students.i once heard a guy bragging about how he only attended 3 hours of instruction and got his ccl,he was not bragging when he got his letter from the isp stating that his,and everyone else who had the same instructor had their ccl revoked and they needed to take another class if they wanted a ccl.it is a shame that some instructor,s think they can get away with this sort of thing.if i attended such a class i would inform the isp right away and demand the instructor give me my money back so i could take a class with a instructor who follow,s the law.edit in,the guy claimed he did not have the time to do the requires 16 hours,he was to buisy.i guess he is the only guy in the state who is buisy,what a tool.


Edited by biggun 1, 11 January 2018 - 09:34 AM.


#15 BigJim

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:09 AM

 He is counting on none of his students ever coming forward.

I doubt any students would come forward as they would loose their FCCL in the process and be out the cost of training and their license.


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#16 WitchDoctor

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:19 AM

I could have taken the eight hour version, but wanted to learn all I could. The first day was gun safety, how to handle, etc.  We did touch on some laws, but the law stuff came down heavy on Sunday and I am glad I had the instructor at Maxons I did have.

Those that skirt the rules knowingly deserve to have their CCL revoked until they can prove they have taken the course by a certified CCL instructor


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#17 Jeffrey

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:58 AM

 

Consider me skeptical. 

Skeptical, why?

3k instructors in the state, the odds are someone is still cheating.

 

I was too skeptical based on the source.


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#18 mauserme

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 12:52 PM

 

 

Consider me skeptical. 

Skeptical, why?

3k instructors in the state, the odds are someone is still cheating.

 

I was too skeptical based on the source.

 

 

 

That's it for me too.

 

I know it's happened, but I question the way the story was made public.


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#19 Bitter Clinger

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:31 PM

I'll also say that the entire 16 hours is a waste and it could easily be done in less than half of that time. The only reason it's 16 hours is because some legislator pulled the number out of his rear and it made it into the law.

It has no basis on what actually should be required to have a good, educational class.

#20 DD123

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:44 PM

Smells fishy to me too.  People that get a license, permit, or certification without having to go through the requirements, generally won't come forward to disclose that.  I knew a guy who was able to get me an operators card for heavy machinery, however at the time I didn't have the cash.  I would tell you right now that if I was able to get that card, I wouldn't be going online telling people about it lol.  

 

There are bound to be some instructors who have bent the rules, or signed certs when people didn't even take the class.  To me it just seems like it's a "anonymous" post from an anti trying to paint a picture that it's more common than it is.  

 

While I was somewhat disappointed in what the 16 hours entailed, because IMHO you could fit all 16 hours into 8 from an information perspective, even including youtube videos to show your students various scenarios/self defense shootings.  Personally I think that if 16 hours is going to be a requirement, then all of the BS can be fit in the first 8 hours, and the second 8 hours should be focused on actually carrying and shooting a gun.  The class I was in, maybe 30-40% of the people knew how to shoot.  The rest were brutal.  I think that format would be far more effective at trying to do what the state believes they're doing.  

 

The first 4 hours of that 8 hours was spent on what effectively was NRA Basic Pistol, which is perfect for someone who has never held a gun or owned a gun before, but for people that know how a single action revolver works, it's a waste of time that can be spent on advanced learning of how the SD laws apply.  


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#21 Jeffrey

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:53 PM

I'll also say that the entire 16 hours is a waste and it could easily be done in less than half of that time. The only reason it's 16 hours is because some legislator pulled the number out of his rear and it made it into the law.

It has no basis on what actually should be required to have a good, educational class.

Probably the same guy that believes we shouldn't be able to have more than 10 rounds at a time.


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#22 BigJim

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:20 AM

Personally I think that if 16 hours is going to be a requirement, then all of the BS can be fit in the first 8 hours, and the second 8 hours should be focused on actually carrying and shooting a gun.  The class I was in, maybe 30-40% of the people knew how to shoot.  The rest were brutal. 

In my class we spent time drawing and firing from the holster (Sirt pistols).  Over half the class couldn't hit the target.  I think spending more time with the Sirts would have been a great use of time.


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#23 RoyB

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:45 AM

This sounds like a one on one class.  Now I know the state requirement is 16 hours, however, I also think that one on one training should be less.  How can you compare the effectiveness of a class full of people over 16 hours vs one on one for 16 hours. 

 

The class I took was smaller, maybe 10 people total.  The instructors ran through their spiel, we took the range test, etc.  I could see the biggest wild card being how active the students are and how knowledgeable they are.  A class full of first time students (lets say 30 for arguments sake), all asking questions will take a lot longer to get through than a one on one class with 1 student familiar with fire arms asking questions.  If all 30 students ask a question or need help totaling 10 minutes each, that is 5 hours in itself.  If a single student class needs help totaling 10 minutes, well, that's only 10 minutes. 

 

I guess the question is whether they class takes into account an average class size with average amount of time allocated to answering questions.  If the instructor runs through a program that typically takes 16 hours and one smaller class is completed in 11 hours, what happens then?



#24 DD123

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:55 AM

 

Personally I think that if 16 hours is going to be a requirement, then all of the BS can be fit in the first 8 hours, and the second 8 hours should be focused on actually carrying and shooting a gun.  The class I was in, maybe 30-40% of the people knew how to shoot.  The rest were brutal. 

In my class we spent time drawing and firing from the holster (Sirt pistols).  Over half the class couldn't hit the target.  I think spending more time with the Sirts would have been a great use of time.

 

That's something that we didn't do at all.  We did practice taking our real firearms (all safety checked by the instructor) and rather than drawing from a holster, we emulated a draw, then the instructor would walk down the line critiquing everyone.  It honestly took no more than 30 minutes.  

 

I just think that people would benefit more from time being spent on actually carrying, handling, firing, etc. versus sitting through hours of time that could be condensed into 8 and the other 8 spent on making sure that people are actually "ready" for carrying.  

 

I've always been against the 16 hour requirement from the perspective that people take those 16 hours, and that's the end of their training.  These are the folks that say "oh I've had 16 hours of training, I don't need more".  Sitting on one's butt for 10-14 hours watching/listening isn't where your education should stop.  

 

One thing I really want to do this year is take a simunition course.  I don't particularly care what the scenarios are.....car jacking, armed robbery, home clearing, etc.. but I think they'd be useful.  

 

I'm not an instructor, so I'm not familiar with what the requirements are for teaching certain topics for amounts of time, but if it were up to me, the first 8 hours would be spent on the carry law, FOID act, as well as going through how the laws are actually applied by a prosecutor, and through the courts.  Then I'd move onto scenarios and videos showing SD shootings, as well as what situational awareness means.  Day 2 would be applying situational awareness, making sure everyone can draw a gun properly, knows how to grip the gun, and knows how to use the sights.  The SIRT's are a great tool so I'd incorporate those.  Then hopefully all of that took no longer than 5-6 hours and I'd move everyone over to the range.  Prior to the actually qualification, I'd watch each person shoot, make some corrections to their grip or stance, or whatever doesn't seem right, then finish off with the qualification.  But like I said, I'm not familiar with what the state requires from instructors, so I wouldn't be able to say whether this would even be feasible.  

 

The 16 hours I took weren't bad, but we were one of the first classes so our instructors weren't as seasoned as one would expect.  The whole going through NRA basic pistol the first day really aggravated me.  


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#25 Dog1

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 04:23 PM

Please find below link to required content and recommend hours for both initial and refresher training.


https://www.ispfsb.c...uest(2-638).pdf

#26 kster

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 05:10 PM

sketchy instructors are def out there still.    especially law enforcement moonlighting.   it's not the first time it's happened, it won't be the last.    



#27 chicagoresident

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 05:33 PM

Please find below link to required content and recommend hours for both initial and refresher training.
https://www.ispfsb.c...uest(2-638).pdf

I was reading that earlier today. There's nothing stopping your guys instructors from making better use of your time. There's plenty of allowance for this within the framework of the curriculum. I see ads for advanced carry technique classes all the time, there's no reason a class like that can't be taught for 8 hours straight the second day. Everybody in our class shot better then when they started the second day and not a single person failed (which sounds idiotic, but apparently it's more common then I thought).

But for a lot of people it's a cash grab and they'd rather burn up the 16 hours doing stuff that doesn't cost them anything (like PowerPoint and YouTube). And if that's their mindset then why bother even burning 16 hours, why not just sign off and say you did. It would save everyone involved some time.

#28 connsolo

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:46 AM

“Skirting the law” or not aside, 16 hrs of instruction is not intended to educate or train, its to make it difficult for people to get a permit plain and simple. There’s nothing in that 16hrs you can’t cover in 4, unless you count an instructor’s stories about their time in the service. It seems like some students are mistaking that 16 hrs for a robust education in the law or consider it training. It ain’t. You leave an IL carry class with no greater skill or knowledge after that 16 hrs than an online course. Having taken carry courses in MN, MA and IL I can tell you that’s the case.But I’m probably preaching to the choir. My question: How do we go about getting rid of the 16hr requirement? And let’s abolish FOID, expand legal places to carry, reduce the $150 fee while we are at it.

#29 Jeffrey

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:55 AM

“Skirting the law” or not aside, 16 hrs of instruction is not intended to educate or train, its to make it difficult for people to get a permit plain and simple. There’s nothing in that 16hrs you can’t cover in 4, unless you count an instructor’s stories about their time in the service. It seems like some students are mistaking that 16 hrs for a robust education in the law or consider it training. It ain’t. You leave an IL carry class with no greater skill or knowledge after that 16 hrs than an online course. Having taken carry courses in MN, MA and IL I can tell you that’s the case.But I’m probably preaching to the choir. My question: How do we go about getting rid of the 16hr requirement? And let’s abolish FOID, expand legal places to carry, reduce the $150 fee while we are at it.

Agreed on almost all fronts.  The 16 hours WAS a waste of my time concerning learning anything.  I've been on this site long and often enough that what was taught in class had already been known through this awesome site.  My wife took the class with me and she did learn a few things.  That said, there are some things the class does teach depending on your level of ability as well as your common sense-O-meter.


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#30 bmurph44

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 09:04 AM

“Skirting the law” or not aside, 16 hrs of instruction is not intended to educate or train, its to make it difficult for people to get a permit plain and simple. There’s nothing in that 16hrs you can’t cover in 4, unless you count an instructor’s stories about their time in the service. It seems like some students are mistaking that 16 hrs for a robust education in the law or consider it training. It ain’t. You leave an IL carry class with no greater skill or knowledge after that 16 hrs than an online course. Having taken carry courses in MN, MA and IL I can tell you that’s the case.But I’m probably preaching to the choir. My question: How do we go about getting rid of the 16hr requirement? And let’s abolish FOID, expand legal places to carry, reduce the $150 fee while we are at it.

“Skirting the law” or not aside, 16 hrs of instruction is not intended to educate or train, its to make it difficult for people to get a permit plain and simple. There’s nothing in that 16hrs you can’t cover in 4, unless you count an instructor’s stories about their time in the service. It seems like some students are mistaking that 16 hrs for a robust education in the law or consider it training. It ain’t. You leave an IL carry class with no greater skill or knowledge after that 16 hrs than an online course. Having taken carry courses in MN, MA and IL I can tell you that’s the case.But I’m probably preaching to the choir. My question: How do we go about getting rid of the 16hr requirement? And let’s abolish FOID, expand legal places to carry, reduce the $150 fee while we are at it.


Well said......




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