j28791 Posted May 23, 2018 at 01:59 AM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 01:59 AM It's not clear to me in this section what they mean by "possess" and why they didn't go further to clarify that by "possess" they mean "possess on his/her person". See the law below (g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:(1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission;(2) when the person is authorized to carry a firearm under Section 24-2 of the Criminal Code of 2012, except subsection (a-5) of that Section; or(3) when the handgun is broken down in a non-functioning state, is not immediately accessible, or is unloaded and enclosed in a case. The red part and bold is from me. To me the way this is worded is ambiguous. It should be clear and state it like the following: (g) A licensee shall possess a license on his or her person at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:(1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission; Is anyone here a lawyer? I think I know what they mean but it's really not clear enough for law in my opinion. Illinois Statutes Chapter 430. Public Safety § 66/10. Issuance of licenses to carry a concealed firearm https://codes.findlaw.com/il/chapter-430-public-safety/il-st-sect-430-66-10.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagSlap Posted May 23, 2018 at 02:19 AM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 02:19 AM Interesting observation...I live in townhouse....When I'm washing the car in 'my' driveway...sometimes stepping off onto some 'common ground'...do I have to have license on me?As a rule, I've had my wallet/license on me when carrying...Were I ever to be questioned outside my home..and didnt have my wallet on me..I'd just 'point' and say...its 'there'...If I were to end up in such a situation and didnt have my license on me outside a townhouse...would I be taking a ride?Hmmmmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScopeEye Posted May 23, 2018 at 02:21 AM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 02:21 AM Pretty clear to meReaders are Leaders... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwc Posted May 23, 2018 at 03:00 AM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 03:00 AM Section 10(h) of the FCCA says that during an investigative stop by law enforcement, a resident who is carrying a concealed firearm must “present the license upon the request of the officer...” That’s hard to do if the CCL is at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted May 23, 2018 at 05:47 AM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 05:47 AM It's not clear to me in this section what they mean by "possess" and why they didn't go further to clarify that by "possess" they mean "possess on his/her person".... "Possess" means to have on or about your person. "Possess on your person" would be redundant. Interesting observation... I live in townhouse.... When I'm washing the car in 'my' driveway...sometimes stepping off onto some 'common ground'...do I have to have license on me? ... Yes, and since you describe your driveway as "your" driveway, even there, too, unless the title to your property includes the driveway. Whether a cop arrests you for having the license inside the building when you're outside depends on the cop, I think. Did he have a bad day? Is he looking to spread it around? How much does he love to do paperwork? Do you have a history of pissing him off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyP Posted May 23, 2018 at 09:27 AM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 09:27 AM When questioned by law enforcement you are also likely to be asked to present some ID? For me that would require having my wallet. I would suspect that most officers would understand that while I was working on the car in the garage, doing yard chores or other messy activity, I would leave the wallet inside the house and the officer would allow me to retrieve it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j28791 Posted May 23, 2018 at 11:33 AM Author Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 11:33 AM It's not clear to me in this section what they mean by "possess" and why they didn't go further to clarify that by "possess" they mean "possess on his/her person"...."Possess" means to have on or about your person. "Possess on your person" would be redundant. Interesting observation...I live in townhouse....When I'm washing the car in 'my' driveway...sometimes stepping off onto some 'common ground'...do I have to have license on me? ...Yes, and since you describe your driveway as "your" driveway, even there, too, unless the title to your property includes the driveway. Whether a cop arrests you for having the license inside the building when you're outside depends on the cop, I think. Did he have a bad day? Is he looking to spread it around? How much does he love to do paperwork? Do you have a history of pissing him off? Again, it's ambiguous http://www.dictionary.com/browse/possess?s=t 1. to have as belonging to one; have as property; own: to possess a house and a car. 2.to have as a faculty, quality, or the like: to possess courage. 3.(of a spirit, especially an evil one) to occupy, dominate, or control (a person) from within: He thought he was possessed by devils. 4. (of a feeling, idea, etc.) to dominate or actuate in the manner of such a spirit: He was possessed by envy. 5. (of a man) to succeed in having sexual intercourse with. 6.to have knowledge of: to possess a language. 7.to keep or maintain (oneself, one's mind, etc.) in a certain state, as of peace, patience, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j28791 Posted May 23, 2018 at 11:37 AM Author Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 11:37 AM Pretty clear to meReaders are Leaders... Clear to you now that you've assumed? Or clear as in, the wording was specific? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j28791 Posted May 23, 2018 at 11:40 AM Author Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 11:40 AM Interesting observation...I live in townhouse....When I'm washing the car in 'my' driveway...sometimes stepping off onto some 'common ground'...do I have to have license on me?As a rule, I've had my wallet/license on me when carrying...Were I ever to be questioned outside my home..and didnt have my wallet on me..I'd just 'point' and say...its 'there'...If I were to end up in such a situation and didnt have my license on me outside a townhouse...would I be taking a ride?Hmmmmmm... This is the exact situation I"m concerned about. Or another example is, you park outside a store, leave your wallet in the car and go grab a gallon of milk. Do you need you bring your CCL with you just to walk in the store even though it's reasonably accessible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallbore Posted May 23, 2018 at 12:25 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 12:25 PM I wonder if the courts might rule possessing a ccl when carrying the same as possessing a driver license when driving. If you forgot it you can present it in court to have the charges dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock23 Posted May 23, 2018 at 12:36 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 12:36 PM Doesn't really matter if the actual statute is ambiguous or not, as most people aren't going to read it outside of class. For clarification, look at the back of your license. ILLINOIS LAW REQUIRES YOU TO CARRY YOUR CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE AT ALL TIMES WHEN CARRYING A CONCEALED FIREARM It also lists the same 3 exceptions that are in the statute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twostarrz Posted May 23, 2018 at 12:38 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 12:38 PM I wonder if the courts might rule possessing a ccl when carrying the same as possessing a driver license when driving. If you forgot it you can present it in court to have the charges dropped.Surely not. Remember you are comparing a right to a privilege. $$$ Driving is a right and guns are a privilege, or is it the other way around...$$$ Anyway, I doubt you will get any flexibility with gun possession from anyone in Illinois. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaKoncepts aka CGS Posted May 23, 2018 at 01:41 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 01:41 PM Wasn't there a proposed piece of legislation that would allow for a digital copy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock23 Posted May 23, 2018 at 01:43 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 01:43 PM Wasn't there a proposed piece of legislation that would allow for a digital copy?Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguy Posted May 23, 2018 at 01:43 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 01:43 PM Interesting observation...I live in townhouse....When I'm washing the car in 'my' driveway...sometimes stepping off onto some 'common ground'...do I have to have license on me?As a rule, I've had my wallet/license on me when carrying...Were I ever to be questioned outside my home..and didnt have my wallet on me..I'd just 'point' and say...its 'there'...If I were to end up in such a situation and didnt have my license on me outside a townhouse...would I be taking a ride?Hmmmmmm... This is the exact situation I"m concerned about. Or another example is, you park outside a store, leave your wallet in the car and go grab a gallon of milk. Do you need you bring your CCL with you just to walk in the store even though it's reasonably accessible? Yes.Why would you leave your wallet unattended in your car? I've always treated my wallet like I treat my carry gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtr100 Posted May 23, 2018 at 01:59 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 01:59 PM A lot of this is going to depend on what you were doing to come to the attention of The King's Man and how you interact with him. Contempt of Cop while not a crime will in fact get you more trouble than you need / want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odinson Posted May 23, 2018 at 02:09 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 02:09 PM I agree - terribly unclear. Especially the part where I am not allowed to defend myself on the CTA and on the UIC campus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InterestedBystander Posted May 23, 2018 at 02:15 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 02:15 PM Yes.Why would you leave your wallet unattended in your car? I've always treated my wallet like I treat my carry gun.Yeah, my wallet is only left in car accidentally if it happens. There is a bill in progress allowing for approval and development of a digital equivalent image/app that you can retain on your cell phone. Not that I think this will happen anytime soon if at all. And fwiw they can see you have a CCL when they run a check on you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomKoz Posted May 23, 2018 at 03:25 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 03:25 PM Purple On: I just keep a copy of the Constitution with its Amendments on me at all times.So far it has worked out just fine for me.Purple Off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted May 23, 2018 at 04:14 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 04:14 PM Doesn't really matter if the actual statute is ambiguous or not, as most people aren't going to read it outside of class. For clarification, look at the back of your license. ILLINOIS LAW REQUIRES YOU TO CARRY YOUR CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE AT ALL TIMES WHEN CARRYING A CONCEALED FIREARM It also lists the same 3 exceptions that are in the statute.To the OP, this should sum it up and answer your question. You need to have your FCCL on you when carrying in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted May 23, 2018 at 04:26 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 04:26 PM Interesting observation...I live in townhouse....When I'm washing the car in 'my' driveway...sometimes stepping off onto some 'common ground'...do I have to have license on me?As a rule, I've had my wallet/license on me when carrying...Were I ever to be questioned outside my home..and didnt have my wallet on me..I'd just 'point' and say...its 'there'...If I were to end up in such a situation and didnt have my license on me outside a townhouse...would I be taking a ride?Hmmmmmm... This is the exact situation I"m concerned about. Or another example is, you park outside a store, leave your wallet in the car and go grab a gallon of milk. Do you need you bring your CCL with you just to walk in the store even though it's reasonably accessible? Now to address your concern about being in your driveway and not having your FOID. Here is the language from 65/2 of the FOID act which is relevant. (430 ILCS 65/2) (from Ch. 38, par. 83-2) Sec. 2. Firearm Owner's Identification Card required; exceptions. (a) (1) No person may acquire or possess any firearm, stun gun, or taser within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act. (2) No person may acquire or possess firearm ammunition within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act. ( The provisions of this Section regarding the possession of firearms, firearm ammunition, stun guns, and tasers do not apply to: (c-5) The provisions of paragraphs (1) and (2) of subsection (a) of this Section regarding the possession of firearms and firearm ammunition do not apply to the holder of a valid concealed carry license issued under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act who is in physical possession of the concealed carry license. So, if you are in possession of a firearm or ammunition you must be in possession of your FOID card or your FCCL as stated in the above statute. I also agree to what was said about your interaction with Law enforcement. If you have your wallet in the house, the officer might be good with or he might not. It's your choice to make whether you want to take that chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybermgk Posted May 23, 2018 at 04:33 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 04:33 PM Again, it's ambiguous http://www.dictionary.com/browse/possess?s=t 1. to have as belonging to one; have as property; own: to possess a house and a car. 2.to have as a faculty, quality, or the like: to possess courage. 3.(of a spirit, especially an evil one) to occupy, dominate, or control (a person) from within: He thought he was possessed by devils. 4. (of a feeling, idea, etc.) to dominate or actuate in the manner of such a spirit: He was possessed by envy. 5. (of a man) to succeed in having sexual intercourse with. 6.to have knowledge of: to possess a language. 7.to keep or maintain (oneself, one's mind, etc.) in a certain state, as of peace, patience, etc. Legal definition of Possession, is not the same as general definition (like in Dictionary) as you have above. You're right the law IS not clear, but not because of the above definition. It is because it should specify the legal term ACTUAL POSSESSION if required to physically be on the carrier, when carrying off of their property. Because, as-is it can be confused with CONSTRUCTIVE POSSESSION, which means you have a valid, active license, but it is at home, or in the car, when you are not, etc.THose two designations, along with CRIMINAL POSSESSION were brought into being, because, legal definition of POSESSION could mean so many things. IANAL, but I can read (which is what the other poster meant I think). https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/possession Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybermgk Posted May 23, 2018 at 04:36 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 04:36 PM Also, FWIW, and it may never get voted on, there is a Bill in the GA that both doesn't require you to physically have your CCL on you, or ACTUAL POSESSION and also to create an Electronic version of it (FOID too I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soylentgreen Posted May 23, 2018 at 05:27 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 05:27 PM You are required to carry your license when you're carrying your gun. Most likely, if a police officer can positively identify you, he can also determine whether you have a valid license or not...even if you don't produce it for his inspection. However, he still may choose to arrest you and sort it out later. He may not.Two days ago, I left the house for work and I was carrying (as always). But I forgot my wallet in my coat, which I didn't wear. I didn't realize that I was missing it until I reached the office. I fully expected to catch a giant hassle if I had an interaction with a police officer on the way home. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguy Posted May 23, 2018 at 05:42 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 05:42 PM Again, it's ambiguous Legal definition of Possession, is not the same as general definition (like in Dictionary) as you have above. You're right the law IS not clear, but not because of the above definition. It is because it should specify the legal term ACTUAL POSSESSION if required to physically be on the carrier, when carrying off of their property. Because, as-is it can be confused with CONSTRUCTIVE POSSESSION, which means you have a valid, active license, but it is at home, or in the car, when you are not, etc.THose two designations, along with CRIMINAL POSSESSION were brought into being, because, legal definition of POSESSION could mean so many things. IANAL, but I can read (which is what the other poster meant I think). https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/possession Guys... It's not ambiguous or unclear unless you are an idiot and I'm guessing you guys are not idiots. And that goes for the entire rest of the members here. At least the paying ones! If you have your Illinois CCL, you've taken the class or you are an instructor. It is common knowledge that you must carry your card when you carry your gun no matter the definition of is... just like you must carry your FOID if you are transporting your gun. Obviously an understanding cop will allow you some leeway while Barney Fife will arrest your behind and make it difficult. I keep my card in my wallet with my money and all other important things that fit in it.My wallet is part of my EDC stuff.I never leave home without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twostarrz Posted May 23, 2018 at 06:06 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 06:06 PM So if I pay to be a member here I instantly gain intelligence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybermgk Posted May 23, 2018 at 06:22 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 06:22 PM Guys... It's not ambiguous or unclear unless you are an idiot and I'm guessing you guys are not idiots. And that goes for the entire rest of the members here. At least the paying ones! If you have your Illinois CCL, you've taken the class or you are an instructor. It is common knowledge that you must carry your card when you carry your gun no matter the definition of is... just like you must carry your FOID if you are transporting your gun. Obviously an understanding cop will allow you some leeway while Barney Fife will arrest your behind and make it difficult. I keep my card in my wallet with my money and all other important things that fit in it.My wallet is part of my EDC stuff.I never leave home without it. Hmm, maybe you're not quite as bright as you think you are . You do realize that we may know, as well as been taught, or read the back of our CCL card, that we must have it on our person AND the actual law can be written such that it isn't actually clear in the language (after all Illinois has NEVER written a poorly worded gun control law)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quackersmacker Posted May 23, 2018 at 06:53 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 06:53 PM Damn, this must be a S-L-O-W news day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40carry Posted May 23, 2018 at 07:01 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 07:01 PM Nothing referenced in any of the dictionary quotes above are how possession is defined with respect to the law. https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/possession According to the definition of possession as it relates to the law, the statute is quite clear. Legally possession deals with both control and intent, and in many instances requires both. I am not a lawyer, but I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuroraInstructor Posted May 23, 2018 at 07:14 PM Share Posted May 23, 2018 at 07:14 PM There is no question here. To "possess" means to have it on you. The same word is used for felons who "Possess" a firearm. With respect to being in your driveway, I would respectfully disagree that unless you own your home, it is not "yours" for the purposes of having a gun on you without the need for a license. It is still your "abode". Furthermore, my argument is that I can carry a concealed firearm on the land of another at their invitation. If renting the property from a landlord does not qualify as being at their "at their invitation" I don't know what is. So I am convinced that a renter can possess a concealed firearm on their rented abode without a license just as a homeowner can. Unless of course you are saying that I have to have my FOID card physically on my person, and not in my wallet on my nightstand, if I am in my basement with my gun.... 720 ILCS 5/24-1 (a) 10 ...or except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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