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#31 Jimster

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 10:59 AM

I actually enjoyed all 16 hours of the training. I felt more confident and safer to carry.

#32 Mr. Fife

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 11:10 AM

gangrel, on 31 Jan 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

 

Riddle me this, Batman.  If the student only fired 30 rounds at the target, and there is a big hole in the X/10 ring, with a couple of stragglers in the 9 ring, and nothing in the 8 or 7, how much extra scrutiny does it take to conclude that the student shot 30/30 inside the scoring area of the target?

 

 

That depends on who is scutinizing.


Edited by Mr. Fife, 31 January 2016 - 11:12 AM.

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#33 gangrel

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 11:16 AM

 

gangrel, on 31 Jan 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

 

Riddle me this, Batman.  If the student only fired 30 rounds at the target, and there is a big hole in the X/10 ring, with a couple of stragglers in the 9 ring, and nothing in the 8 or 7, how much extra scrutiny does it take to conclude that the student shot 30/30 inside the scoring area of the target?

 

 

That depends on who is scutinizing.

 

No, it really, really doesn't.


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#34 Mr. Fife

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 11:20 AM

OK


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#35 gangrel

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 11:33 AM

OK

Well, clearly you don't buy in, so let's just try it this way.  If you see a hole in the middle of the target that took at least 7-8 shots to make, and another 8 holes scattered around the outside of the 10 ring and the 9 ring, and not a single hole in the 8 ring, 7 ring, or outside of the target, what are the odds that the student fired 15-16 shots in the 9 ring or better, and managed to miss the paper entirely with the remaining 14-15 shots?  These things do tend to follow a bit of a a bell curve.  But it's easier than that, because to pass, they could have missed 9 of those shots anyways, which means that hole that looks like it has at least 7-8 shots only needs to have 13 shots, or 6 shots more than are clearly visible.  Again, we aren't talking about 5 shots in the white space outside the silhouette, we are talking about a clean target except for a hole in the middle and 8 separate satellite holes.  The NRA actually addresses how to score this.  Anyone who has shot any kind of competition knows how to score this.  No one is going to get on the stand (not that it would ever come to that anyways) and try to say that the person missed more than nine shots with a hole in the middle of the target and not a single visible blow on the paper.  There is precisely ZERO additional scrutiny needed to determine how this student shot.


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#36 Mr. Fife

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 11:46 AM

OK


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#37 Gamma

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 02:31 PM

Did the instructor take video to ensure that the 10 shot strings were all fired from the proper distances too? If an instructor is present and witnessed all the shots, it doesn't matter if they're all in the exact .355 diameter hole, or all over the place. By passing the student, the instructor certifies that all of the shots they witnessed were in the scoring area. Not that big of a deal, but not someone I'd want to train with. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Good point. What's to say that the targets weren't all shot with 30 rounds at 3 yards? Or 1 yard? There is reality involved here.


Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#38 wtr100

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 02:47 PM

During the explanation of the shooting qualification of my CCL course my instructor informed us that he could only count distinct bullet holes. He stated that if we were a great shot and 'shot out the bullseye' that we would fail the class as he could not count 21 distinct holes out of 30 (70%). Thoughts and opinions about this? 

 

 

maybe he was joking?

 

if not he's a retard and should stop instructing


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#39 Molly B.

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 02:54 PM

During the explanation of the shooting qualification of my CCL course my instructor informed us that he could only count distinct bullet holes. He stated that if we were a great shot and 'shot out the bullseye' that we would fail the class as he could not count 21 distinct holes out of 30 (70%). Thoughts and opinions about this?

 
 
maybe he was joking?
 
if not he's a retard and should stop instructing

Having a bad day? Noticing a little snarkiness in your posts. Maybe a break and a little pie will help. Gotta photo of the outrageous chocolate pie around here somewhere but I can't upload photos!!
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#40 POAT54

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 03:02 PM

Ok, Molly will this pie work? Now how do I get my avatar back....

 


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#41 wtr100

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 03:04 PM

 

 

During the explanation of the shooting qualification of my CCL course my instructor informed us that he could only count distinct bullet holes. He stated that if we were a great shot and 'shot out the bullseye' that we would fail the class as he could not count 21 distinct holes out of 30 (70%). Thoughts and opinions about this?

 
 
maybe he was joking?
 
if not he's a retard and should stop instructing

Having a bad day? Noticing a little snarkiness in your posts. Maybe a break and a little pie will help. Gotta photo of the outrageous chocolate pie around here somewhere but I can't upload photos!!

 

 

 

seriously if an instructor is still seriously saying this he's an idiot

 

i can see how a student might not understand a joke but


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#42 gangrel

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 03:39 PM

 

seriously if an instructor is still seriously saying this he's an idiot

 

i can see how a student might not understand a joke but

 

Sadly, there have been several confirmed instances of this happening since CCW was instituted, and at least one instructor in this very thread who, if I understood him correctly, admitted to doing it himself and tried to defend that position.


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#43 hoopeystar

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 05:44 PM

He was actually serious. This is my target. 5, 7, 10yards. Middle, top, bottom respectively. He counted the holes and scored me a 29/30.

Edited by hoopeystar, 31 January 2016 - 05:46 PM.


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Posted 31 January 2016 - 05:53 PM

GAH im new to this... how do i get my picture of my target up here?



#45 Cerus

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 05:54 PM

Ok, Molly will this pie work? Now how do I get my avatar back....


I had to use the gravatar option to get mine to work. Just made a free username only Wordpress account to set it up. Annoying but it works.

#46 Gamma

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 06:06 PM

Had a thought. If I was ever forced into this kind of situation I would insist on scoring and pasting the target after each round.


Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#47 gangrel

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 06:40 PM

Had a thought. If I was ever forced into this kind of situation I would insist on scoring and pasting the target after each round.


My concern would be, what else are they making up as they go along. I would ask for a refund and seek better training. It is much easier to learn skills properly the first time than it is to have to unlearn bad ones and relearn good ones.

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#48 StogieRob

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 06:58 PM

The issue is, the way the instructor teaches students on the range is indicative of his/her overall understanding of how to teach shooting. Teaching students to "spread their shots around" is instilling bad habits. Indeed, it is the opposite of what students (especially new ones) should be developing.


When did anyone on this forum ever suggest that the 30 rounds with 21 somewhere inside the 7 ring required to obtain their license was a lesson in shooting? As the OP described, this wasn't about shooting technique, this was so HE could definitely count holes and not potentially be screwed over by the ISP for counting "invisible holes".

It is ridiculous? Absolutely. Is it CYA? Probably.

Is it indicative of his/her overall understanding of how to teach shooting? Without asking the instructor if this was what he teaches in a class that is about shooting, we can only guess...

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#49 gangrel

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 07:20 PM

 

The issue is, the way the instructor teaches students on the range is indicative of his/her overall understanding of how to teach shooting. Teaching students to "spread their shots around" is instilling bad habits. Indeed, it is the opposite of what students (especially new ones) should be developing.


When did anyone on this forum ever suggest that the 30 rounds with 21 somewhere inside the 7 ring required to obtain their license was a lesson in shooting? As the OP described, this wasn't about shooting technique, this was so HE could definitely count holes and not potentially be screwed over by the ISP for counting "invisible holes".

It is ridiculous? Absolutely. Is it CYA? Probably.

Is it indicative of his/her overall understanding of how to teach shooting? Without asking the instructor if this was what he teaches in a class that is about shooting, we can only guess...

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Ok, I'll play.  So, where else did said instructor decide to let "CYA" trump covering the actual materials as they should be covered?  Did he teach that they should carry with an empty chamber to prevent ND?  Maybe teach that FOPA should be followed any time a licensee leaves the state?  Teach that the handgun must be unloaded every time a licensee leaves the vehicle in a prohibited place?  I have heard examples of all of these.  Where does it cease to be "CYA" ind instead become teaching bad/inaccurate information?

 

You don't have to be teaching a skill to instill a bad habit.  Some students are going to take this exercise, conducted this way, to mean "in a defensive situation, spread those shots around.  At the very least, you run the risk of breaking someone's habit of putting the front sight over center of mass and squeezing the trigger.  A friend and mentor just yesterday had to break a habit I had managed to pick up from shooting competition, and bring me back to a proper defensive mindset during a drill.  It was easy to fix, but it is astonishing how easy it is to pick up a bad habit.


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#50 Mr. Fife

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 07:26 PM

 

 

seriously if an instructor is still seriously saying this he's an idiot

 

i can see how a student might not understand a joke but

 

Sadly, there have been several confirmed instances of this happening since CCW was instituted, and at least one instructor in this very thread who, if I understood him correctly, admitted to doing it himself and tried to defend that position.

 

You may be referring to my post. Just so it's clear, the OP was talking about failing students for not making 21 distinct holes. I was talking about nobody failing because of the qualification. I would have been there with them all night until they passed, but I was pretty confident of their shooting abilities after the first 8 hours. My classes went to the range each day, I wonder how many others do that. Hopefully more than just me.

 

However, when scoring the qualifications, I like seeing at least 21 distict holes, it makes it easy for me to score. Once I counted 21, I wrote PASS on their target. I never counted past that and didn't care. So yes, I would like to see 21 holes and while some may have tried to make one big hole, only a couple had a chance of coming close. All left a minimum of 21 holes and I have photo evidence on file should the issue ever come up. All of my students were delighted with my classes, all were thankful and admitted to learning new things, and every single person who applied for an FCCL using my training certificate received their license without delay. So after a 100% track record of success, I'm kind of suprised to learn that maybe I was doing it all wrong.


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#51 gangrel

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 07:45 PM

 

 

 

seriously if an instructor is still seriously saying this he's an idiot

 

i can see how a student might not understand a joke but

 

Sadly, there have been several confirmed instances of this happening since CCW was instituted, and at least one instructor in this very thread who, if I understood him correctly, admitted to doing it himself and tried to defend that position.

 

You may be referring to my post. Just so it's clear, the OP was talking about failing students for not making 21 distinct holes. I was talking about nobody failing because of the qualification. I would have been there with them all night until they passed, but I was pretty confident of their shooting abilities after the first 8 hours. My classes went to the range each day, I wonder how many others do that. Hopefully more than just me.

 

However, when scoring the qualifications, I like seeing at least 21 distict holes, it makes it easy for me to score. Once I counted 21, I wrote PASS on their target. I never counted past that and didn't care. So yes, I would like to see 21 holes and while some may have tried to make one big hole, only a couple had a chance of coming close. All left a minimum of 21 holes and I have photo evidence on file should the issue ever come up. All of my students were delighted with my classes, all were thankful and admitted to learning new things, and every single person who applied for an FCCL using my training certificate received their license without delay. So after a 100% track record of success, I'm kind of suprised to learn that maybe I was doing it all wrong.

 

The issue here is, if a student came to your class and played the old carnival "Shoot Out the Star" game with the X-ring, you would make said student reshoot at all.  If this is not the case, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.  This response certainly seems to reinforce that assertion.  I am sorry if you take exception to that viewpoint, but telling students to do anything besides place the front sight over the center of mass and squeeze the trigger is just instilling bad habits.  Notable exceptions to this would be Mozambique drills and Boardhouse Rules for multiple assailants, both of which are beyond the scope of the required materials for Illinois CCW, and neither of which are what you were talking about.

 

If you really want to see the shots more spread out, tell your students to shoot faster.  This is the difference between target accuracy and combat accuracy.  Instructors in more advanced NRA classes tell their students as much if we see tight little groups.  Telling those students to aim somewhere other than center of mass so they make 21 individual holes, on the other hand...

 

Yes, my students used to spend two sessions on the range, when I was using NRA BP as the first 8 hours.  Now they spend one longer session on the range on one day, as the travel time to and from the range makes an arduous class even more so, and there are no skills in the state requirements that should take more than that.  To your point, not one of my students has been rejected as a result of training either.  I have had a few rejected due to LE objections.  In a state like Illinois, that is bound to happen.

 

So I guess the question is back to you here...if you had a shooter that you saw shoot 30 rounds, and the X ring and most of the 10 ring on his target ceased to exist, and you saw no holes anywhere outside the 10 ring, would you make that student reshoot?  Because if you would, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.


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#52 Mr. Fife

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 08:31 PM

Correct, we did not do Mozambique drills or any other type of Ninja training in any of my classes, we followed the required curriculum and everything was done by the book. The students deserve that. Besides, there are plenty of classes available in all types of disciplines, I would dare say that you can train somewhere each weekend for several years straight and learn something new in each class.

 

So we learned the curriculum. We also didn't skimp on marksmanship training, that was done in the BP portion and I believe that range time was generous if you took training from me. Range rental wasn't cheap, I rented time each day, but it wasn't about making money for me.

 

If you came to me for training, there was learning taking place. I've had a few students sign up thinking that all they needed to do was sit for 16 hours. Yeah, that doesn't work too well. I do training for a living at my day job, have been a trainer and course developer for over 20 years, albeit not in firearms training so I don't want anyone to think I'm on the same level as other trainers here. That's not the case. But if you're in the room with me, you're going to be learning. If you are teaching a class and nobody is learning, than maybe you are just in it for the money, or wasting your time.

 

To answer your question, and it's true we may not see eye to eye but I won't hold that against you, I would not fail the student and I would congratulate him, and write PASS on the target. Then I would have him put 21 distinct holes in the 10 ring of a fresh target for the second picture, and I'd pay for his ammo.


Edited by Mr. Fife, 31 January 2016 - 08:33 PM.

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#53 Rockdiver

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 01:13 AM

Im going to err on the side of not deliberately inducing training scars.

But thats me....

I have a student blaze the x ring out of that barn door b-27 with no serious feathering Im going to tell them to sign it/date it/ and Ill sleep like a freakin baby.

If I witnessed an instructor telling a student to spread their damn shots out on a slowfire qualification I would never be able to take them seriously again.
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Posted 01 February 2016 - 01:24 AM

Correct, we did not do Mozambique drills or any other type of Ninja training in any of my classes, we followed the required curriculum and everything was done by the book. The students deserve that. Besides, there are plenty of classes available in all types of disciplines, I would dare say that you can train somewhere each weekend for several years straight and learn something new in each class.
 
So we learned the curriculum. We also didn't skimp on marksmanship training, that was done in the BP portion and I believe that range time was generous if you took training from me. Range rental wasn't cheap, I rented time each day, but it wasn't about making money for me.
 
If you came to me for training, there was learning taking place. I've had a few students sign up thinking that all they needed to do was sit for 16 hours. Yeah, that doesn't work too well. I do training for a living at my day job, have been a trainer and course developer for over 20 years, albeit not in firearms training so I don't want anyone to think I'm on the same level as other trainers here. That's not the case. But if you're in the room with me, you're going to be learning. If you are teaching a class and nobody is learning, than maybe you are just in it for the money, or wasting your time.
 
To answer your question, and it's true we may not see eye to eye but I won't hold that against you, I would not fail the student and I would congratulate him, and write PASS on the target. Then I would have him put 21 distinct holes in the 10 ring of a fresh target for the second picture, and I'd pay for his ammo.



Fife,

If you have a student so coalesced in their qual as to have a blowout in the honeypot, you have one of two things in front of you.

A fine shooter who has performed.

Or a new shooter that is reflective of your prowess as an instructor.

Ive had this happen several times with CCL students. I actually had two instructor Candidates from Mattson PD blow the centers out of their targets before most were on their second shot.


What you do not have is a target demonstrative of any inferred rejection status from ISP.

I understand CYA....but the folks at ISP are generally not retarded....although thry can be a bit CYA themselves lately.

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#55 wtr100

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 06:05 AM

At this point the only students I've had miss any shots are a couple IPSC IDPA hot dogs ( my neighbors to boot) who tried to race each other during the qual head shots only .... oh and they loaded each others magazines so they had to run a reload

 

Anyway other than the 'must hit the scoring rings' business the ISP seems to have been quite reasonable on the qualification


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#56 CShel24

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 07:27 AM

This was never brought up in my class. Our instructor also did take pictures of us standing next to our targets. I don't blame him, good way to cover his own butt.

 

I cannot remember what my score was for sure (I am thinking 283 which was far from the best in my class, but not the worst thankfully). All 30 of mine were "on target", but I let a couple out into the "7" area. 

 

It is a non-issue now because I have passed. I can't remember how it works so I will go ahead and ask...

 

Is it like 21 out of 30 "overall" ....or 7 out of 10 for each section (for a total of 21)?



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Posted 09 February 2016 - 08:55 AM

This was never brought up in my class. Our instructor also did take pictures of us standing next to our targets. I don't blame him, good way to cover his own butt.
 
I cannot remember what my score was for sure (I am thinking 283 which was far from the best in my class, but not the worst thankfully). All 30 of mine were "on target", but I let a couple out into the "7" area. 
 
It is a non-issue now because I have passed. I can't remember how it works so I will go ahead and ask...
 
Is it like 21 out of 30 "overall" ....or 7 out of 10 for each section (for a total of 21)?

21 out of 30. It doesn't matter at each distance, just in total. The pins are meaningless except for bragging rights. I know of instructors early on who were tallying the points and only passing students who scored 70% of possible points (210/300). This is NOT what the law or the JCAR rules say.

Taking pictures of targets is fine. The state requires us to keep a record of student performance, though they give no specifics of 2hat kind of documentation.

It sounds like your instructor got it right. :)

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#58 CShel24

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 09:54 AM

Thanks for the reply! I know I have test taking anxiety bad, I was so afraid of failing and embarrassing myself.

 

I also had to take the written test to get a drivers license when moving to IL. I actually lost sleep over it and was freaking out before I took the test. I made a perfect score, but wow I was stressed.  :geek:


Edited by CShel24, 09 February 2016 - 09:54 AM.