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Melting Point?


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#1 chancemccall

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 04:25 PM

Illinois 

Chapter 5, paragraph 25.22(h) of the Illinois State Code makes it illegal for any dealer, importer, manufacturer or pawnbroker, to manufacture, sell or deliver to anyone, except another gun dealer licensed by the Federal government, any handgun having a barrel, slide, frame or receiver that has a die casting of zinc alloy or any other non-homogenous metal which will melt or deform at a temperature of 800 degrees Fahrenheit or less. This law was passed in October, 1973.
 
O.K. There has been a discussion about the new Ruger Wranglers as they do not meet these standards at ISP. Apparently they are ignoring this law for the time being given all the cheap semi autos that have been showing up on a regular basis for a number of years now.

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#2 Euler

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 05:24 PM

It's usually only an issue for 22LR guns (e.g., Walther PPK/S in 22LR made by Umarex, SIG Mosquito made by GSG), since they're the ones made from cheap metals.

Before gun dealer licensing, some FFLs ignored it, and some didn't. It's a racist law meant to keep "Saturday night specials" out of the hands of blacks and Latinos during the unrest of the civil rights movement.

After gun dealer licensing, I'm sure Illinois will enforce it if it wants, just because it can, even if you're not black, not Latino, not intending to use it to overthrow the state capitol or city hall, and not intending to use it to resist the fascists who prop up the teetering capitalistic imperium when they try to oppress you.
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#3 Onytay

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 05:31 PM

 

Illinois 

Chapter 5, paragraph 25.22(h) of the Illinois State Code makes it illegal for any dealer, importer, manufacturer or pawnbroker, to manufacture, sell or deliver to anyone, except another gun dealer licensed by the Federal government, any handgun having a barrel, slide, frame or receiver that has a die casting of zinc alloy or any other non-homogenous metal which will melt or deform at a temperature of 800 degrees Fahrenheit or less. This law was passed in October, 1973.
 
O.K. There has been a discussion about the new Ruger Wranglers as they do not meet these standards at ISP. Apparently they are ignoring this law for the time being given all the cheap semi autos that have been showing up on a regular basis for a number of years now.

 

The Ruger Wrangler has an aluminum frame that melts well above 800 degrees, and the info received directly from Ruger shows that they meet IL requirements.

 

Where is this discussion that hey do not meet the requirements?



#4 Onytay

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 05:41 PM

Here the email response from Ruger regarding the melting point.

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Edited by Onytay, 16 August 2019 - 05:42 PM.


#5 InterestedBystander

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 06:29 PM

There have been bills submitted in the past to change the melting point value to 700 but as usual, they cant even get called to committee.

Edited by InterestedBystander, 16 August 2019 - 06:35 PM.

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#6 chicagoresident

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 10:03 PM

This bill is specifically targeted at Zamak and Zamak like zink alloys.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamak

This was traditionally what the ring of fire "Saturday night specials" were made of. Bryco, Jennings, Lorcin, Raven and Phoenix, etc. Hi Point still makes thier slide out of this material, hence their ban in Illinois.

The Wrangler's gripframe and trigger guard is zinc alloy, but the part of the frame around the cylinder is aluminum. This would be the functional frame, and the gripframe is auxiliary. Heat it up to 800 degrees and it's still "a functional firearm" without the parts that melt off.

any handgun having a barrel, slide, frame or receiver


Barrel: Cold-Hammer Forged Carbon Steel
Cylinder: Carbon Steel, Unfluted, Black Oxide Finish
Cylinder Frame: Die Cast A380 Aluminum Alloy
https://www.american...ction-revolver/

Edited by chicagoresident, 16 August 2019 - 10:24 PM.


#7 mikew

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 11:32 PM

This bill is specifically targeted at Zamak and Zamak like zink alloys.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamak

This was traditionally what the ring of fire "Saturday night specials" were made of. Bryco, Jennings, Lorcin, Raven and Phoenix, etc. Hi Point still makes thier slide out of this material, hence their ban in Illinois.

S&W Sigma .380 had a Zamak slide



#8 2A4Cook

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 05:43 AM

Hey, it saved us from crappy Lorcin .25's that blew up in your face!

#9 JTHunter

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 10:24 PM

There has been a .22 revolver advertised a few times locally that, when I first checked into it a few years ago, found it to be "unavailable" for this reason.  It is a "Heritage" that, like the Ruger, can be had with a second cylinder for .22 Mag.  The people I asked that had it advertised in their circular said it was because part of the gun would melt but they didn't know the full details.


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#10 Trevis

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 10:30 PM

Hi point banned? Hmm.

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#11 Euler

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 10:44 PM

Hi point banned? Hmm.


I believe all HiPoint pistols have ZAMAK slides. ZAMAK guns aren't banned from ownership in Illinois, just for FFLs to transfer them.
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#12 Trevis

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 07:15 AM

I believe all HiPoint pistols have ZAMAK slides. ZAMAK guns aren't banned from ownership in Illinois, just for FFLs to transfer them.



Do you know when that was put into effect?

"You know, there are some words I've known since I was a schoolboy: 'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie, as wisdom...and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged..." - Capt. Jean-Luc Picard

 

“But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case it is unfit to exist.”

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#13 mikew

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 07:31 AM

Do you know when that was put into effect?

 

 

Illinois 

Chapter 5, paragraph 25.22(h) of the Illinois State Code makes it illegal for any dealer, importer, manufacturer or pawnbroker, to manufacture, sell or deliver to anyone, except another gun dealer licensed by the Federal government, any handgun having a barrel, slide, frame or receiver that has a die casting of zinc alloy or any other non-homogenous metal which will melt or deform at a temperature of 800 degrees Fahrenheit or less. This law was passed in October, 1973.
 
O.K. There has been a discussion about the new Ruger Wranglers as they do not meet these standards at ISP. Apparently they are ignoring this law for the time being given all the cheap semi autos that have been showing up on a regular basis for a number of years now.

 

 

45 years ago



#14 Bird76Mojo

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 11:46 AM

Funny thing, I've seen numerous Rural King stores selling High Point pistols for years now... As well as other firearm retailers..


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#15 Trevis

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 12:12 PM

Funny thing, I've seen numerous Rural King stores selling High Point pistols for years now... As well as other firearm retailers..


Exactly what I was thinking.

"You know, there are some words I've known since I was a schoolboy: 'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie, as wisdom...and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged..." - Capt. Jean-Luc Picard

 

“But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case it is unfit to exist.”

― Lysander SpoonerNo Treason: The Constitution of No Authority

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#16 Flynn

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 11:52 PM

Funny thing, I've seen numerous Rural King stores selling High Point pistols for years now... As well as other firearm retailers..

 

Hi-Point (or more correclty MKS Supply) stopped selling/distributing their pistols directly to Illinois FFLs in 2017 when Strassell’s Machine, Inc. purchased Hi-Point from the original Beemiller, Inc. and apparently secured or brought with some more knowledgeable lawyers and staffing.

 

I would guess there is still some FFLs that still turn a blind eye (or are ignornant) and are selling them 2nd hand or from a non-official distributor.


Edited by Flynn, 20 August 2019 - 11:55 PM.

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#17 rebel49

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 03:42 PM

What about Glock and other polymer pistols with the serial number tag molded in. I would think they would melt at 800 degrees.

Here again another useless law which did NOTHING!!!!



#18 mauserme

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 03:45 PM

What about Glock and other polymer pistols with the serial number tag molded in. I would think they would melt at 800 degrees.
Here again another useless law which did NOTHING!!!!


Oh, it did accomplish something.

Euler touched on it up in Post #2.

#19 billm1911

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 04:04 PM

i was at a local gun shop and a lady brought in a hi-point that belonged to her deceased husband.  They told her they could not do anything with it because it was not allowed to be sold in Illinois due to this law.  



#20 Flynn

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 04:41 PM

What about Glock and other polymer pistols with the serial number tag molded in. I would think they would melt at 800 degrees.

 

As said the law was racially motivated against low income minorities aimed at preventing them from buying the lower cost firearms at the time, it was authored before polymer pistols were a thing, thus is makes no mention of polymers and only mentions zinc alloys and non-homogenous metal.

 

In IL we should actually be happy polymer was not added to the law with a law enforcement exemption when they became a thing.


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#21 Euler

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 10:44 PM

...
O.K. There has been a discussion about the new Ruger Wranglers as they do not meet these standards at ISP. Apparently they are ignoring this law for the time being given all the cheap semi autos that have been showing up on a regular basis for a number of years now.


The Ruger Wrangler has an aluminum frame that melts well above 800 degrees, and the info received directly from Ruger shows that they meet IL requirements.
 
Where is this discussion that hey do not meet the requirements?


I had occasion to drive by MegaSports in Plainfield today. The marquee out front advertises the Wrangler for $209.
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#22 Yas

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 08:23 AM

Let me guess that a walther ppk/s is also in the melting point category 

 

In this mornings email there's an ad from "Shoot Point Blank" advertising a PPK/S for $249.99 but has a banner stating

 

Not available in the state of illinois 



#23 chicagoresident

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 08:29 AM

Let me guess that a walther ppk/s is also in the melting point category 
 
In this mornings email there's an ad from "Shoot Point Blank" advertising a PPK/S for $249.99 but has a banner stating
 
Not available in the state of illinois 

That better be the 22 version, if they added Zamak to the 380 I'd be heartbrokenen as it's on my list to buy.

#24 Yas

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 09:01 AM

Yes  listed as a .22



#25 mikew

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 09:14 AM

Let me guess that a walther ppk/s is also in the melting point category 

 

In this mornings email there's an ad from "Shoot Point Blank" advertising a PPK/S for $249.99 but has a banner stating

 

Not available in the state of illinois 

If it's not made of Zamak, then it's a marketing decision.



#26 InterestedBystander

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 09:28 AM

Let me guess that a walther ppk/s is also in the melting point category 
 
In this mornings email there's an ad from "Shoot Point Blank" advertising a PPK/S for $249.99 but has a banner stating
 
Not available in the state of illinois 

If it's not made of Zamak, then it's a marketing decision.
A few .22s are listed on the Walther site as restricted in IL due to Melting Point.

Buds has their own MP list for IL:
Prohibited: Any handgun having a barrel, slide, frame or receiver that has a die casting of zinc alloy or any other non-homogenous metal, which will melt or deform at a temperature of 800 degrees F or less
- Prohibited: Cobra, Phoenix Arms, Heritage Arms, Walther rimfire pistols, GSG rimfire pistols, Hi-Point pistols and
Jimenez Arms.

I think Ive seen some 1911 copies in .22 also listed elsewhere.
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#27 mikew

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 09:33 AM

 

If it's not made of Zamak, then it's a marketing decision.
A few .22s are listed on the Walther site as restricted in IL due to Melting Point.

Buds has their own MP list for IL:
Prohibited: Any handgun having a barrel, slide, frame or receiver that has a die casting of zinc alloy or any other non-homogenous metal, which will melt or deform at a temperature of 800 degrees F or less
- Prohibited: Cobra, Phoenix Arms, Heritage Arms, Walther rimfire pistols, GSG rimfire pistols, Hi-Point pistols and
Jimenez Arms.

I think Ive seen some 1911 copies in .22 also listed elsewhere.

 

Thank you.



#28 Euler

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 03:02 PM

I think Ive seen some 1911 copies in .22 also listed elsewhere.


Umarex makes the .22LR PPK/S. It has a ZAMAK slide.

The Colt .22LR 1911 is also made by Umarex. It has an aluminum slide and (oh no) a ZAMAK frame. People who own the Colt say it's a really nice gun.

ZAMAK slides seem to have quality problems, anyway, so that's a reason to avoid them even without the MP law. I haven't heard of any quality problems with ZAMAK frames.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#29 InterestedBystander

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 05:55 PM

I think Chiappa 22s also have/had Zamak frame but dont know about its melting point..
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#30 howards

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 10:58 AM

So how would a smartgun do at 800 degrees?




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