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Home Invasion Vs. Burglary/Robbery?


jackjack998

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Hey everyone, first post

 

I just had a quick legal question; I was researching home defense laws in Illinois (most of my info came from this site actually), and would just like some more clarification.

 

I read that "violently" entering a residence is considered a felony, and you can use deadly force to prevent a felony, so basically, if someone breaks a window and comes inside you can use deadly force immediately, but if they pick the lock on a door, or you forget it open and they just open it and walk in, you cannot (barring threats/weapons etc)? I'm sort of confused.

 

Also I read that it is a "home invasion" if they know that you are there, and they come in anyway. So, assuming they aren't actually inside yet, are you supposed to yell for them to go away, and if they continue and enter, you can use deadly force? I was actually surprised by how...Not awful this state's home defense laws are.

 

I know this state doesn't have a duty to retreat, even though I might consider that if I was alone and run somewhere to call the cops.

 

I live in Cook county btw.

 

Thanks everyone!

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If the unauthorized person doesn't beat a hasty retreat when you encounter him/her in your home... I suppose it is up to you to decide if you are in danger.

 

Illinois laws are better than many other states.

Chicago has a long history of NOT charging you after a SD shooting.

 

Huh, ok thanks

 

But as for "deciding if I'm in danger", I thought that the person already committed a felony by continuing to break in after they knew I was there, and deadly force is authorized to STOP a felony? So doesn't that mean that it's already justified, regardless of what they are carrying? I would hope so, since I can't possibly be expected to frisk them to determine if they are dangerous or not :phone:

 

Also, is it still justifiable if they do NOT know if you are home, but they still "violently break in", ie. breaking a window? For example, if I am sleeping and they somehow enter quickly without giving me a chance to try to scare them off by announcing my presence? Because they are committing a felony by breaking in regardless, right?

 

Also I'm surprised to hear that about Chicago, of course it's a good thing but I wouldn't have thought they would be very tolerant of SD.

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You're correct that the use of force laws are not awful.

 

There are 2 parts to all of Illinois' use of force laws. The first part(s) can be the cause for confusion and contention. There are various qualifiers, like forcible felonies, that can satisfy this first part, and it isn't easy to define such circumstances without there being actual facts to consider.

 

The second part, and really the only part that counts, is the same in all cases. A reasonable person must believe that the threat of death or great bodily harm is imminent.

 

Can you use deadly force to defend yourself or another? Yes, if death or great bodily harm is imminent.

 

Can you defend your dwelling? Yes, if death or great bodily harm is imminent.

 

Can you defend other property? Yes, if death or great bodily harm is imminent.

 

Can you stop a forcible felony? Yes, if death or great bodily harm is imminent.

 

It all pivots on whether or not a reasonable person would need to use deadly force to prevent death or great bodily harm.

 

No other condition justifies the use of force without death or great bodily harm being imminent.

 

That threat is realized when when an assailant has the Ability and the Opportunity to cause death or great bodily harm to another, and the other person is presently in Jeopardy.

 

 

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If the unauthorized person doesn't beat a hasty retreat when you encounter him/her in your home... I suppose it is up to you to decide if you are in danger.

 

Illinois laws are better than many other states.

Chicago has a long history of NOT charging you after a SD shooting.

 

Huh, ok thanks

 

But as for "deciding if I'm in danger", I thought that the person already committed a felony by continuing to break in after they knew I was there, and deadly force is authorized to STOP a felony? So doesn't that mean that it's already justified, regardless of what they are carrying? I would hope so, since I can't possibly be expected to frisk them to determine if they are dangerous or not :phone:

 

Also, is it still justifiable if they do NOT know if you are home, but they still "violently break in", ie. breaking a window? For example, if I am sleeping and they somehow enter quickly without giving me a chance to try to scare them off by announcing my presence?

 

 

If the burglar shrieks in surprise and heads for the door as fast as possible you might not be in danger. If he advances on you knowing you are there like a home invader intent on doing you harm... you might be in danger.

 

There is no reason to take a life unless you really need to, but don't overthink it? Especially when moments count?

 

There are lots of threads here about self defense shootings from Illinois and around the country. You should browse around and read them. See what the members here say about actual events.

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Thanks, I shall go read some of those cases now.

 

It's just that I hear stories like this: http://chicagocriminalattorneysblog.com/2011/09/illinois-self-defense-law-chicago-man-kills-home-intruder.html

 

Where it says:

 

"In this situation, one can use deadly force against the burglar if the breaking and entering is violent and likely to lead to an assault or commission of a felony. With a home invasion, the homeowner does not need to face deadly force to respond with deadly force."

 

And then I wonder. It's just that I never thought about this before and decided I'd really like to know for sure. In reality if this ocurred when I was home alone I'd probably look out the other door farthest from the intruder to make sure it's clear and just run out of my home avoiding any confrontation at all.

 

Thanks again

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Thanks, I shall go read some of those cases now.

 

It's just that I hear stories like this: http://chicagocriminalattorneysblog.com/2011/09/illinois-self-defense-law-chicago-man-kills-home-intruder.html

 

 

Here's a recent one that's still playing out.

 

A neighbor described the neighborhood as "very bad" and said that his own home had been broken into five times since he's moved, reports the Sun-Times.

As the homeowner killed Anterrio Hall, he could face homicide charges. However, as Illinois self defense laws are somewhat liberal, it's unlikely that the homeowner will be convicted of a crime.

 

 

Old guy

Forcible entry

Bad neighborhood

 

I'm guessing no charges will be filed.

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if someone breaks a window or a door and comes in i would think deadly force can be used,if i am in my living room watching tv and the door gets kicked in i will give about 10 seconds for them to follow my order to leave,after that the threat is in my mind life threatening,it will not end well for the offenders.

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Thanks again

 

Well yeah in that case he was old and sickly, so he gets seen much more favorably. I just thought that simply committing burglary/robber justified the use of deadly force,

 

I'll remember to stay away from Detroit, that's sad :no:

 

EDIT @ tkr: Oh, that's what I was thinking. Burglary/robber/forcible entry is automatically grounds for use of deadly force. But it's not just because he was a sick, elderly man, was it? What if it had been just an average male? I'm certainly no bodybuilder, I'm almost underweight.

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Thanks, I shall go read some of those cases now.

 

It's just that I hear stories like this: http://chicagocriminalattorneysblog.com/2011/09/illinois-self-defense-law-chicago-man-kills-home-intruder.html

 

Where it says:

 

"In this situation, one can use deadly force against the burglar if the breaking and entering is violent and likely to lead to an assault or commission of a felony. With a home invasion, the homeowner does not need to face deadly force to respond with deadly force."

 

And then I wonder. It's just that I never thought about this before and decided I'd really like to know for sure. In reality if this ocurred when I was home alone I'd probably look out the other door farthest from the intruder to make sure it's clear and just run out of my home avoiding any confrontation at all.

 

Thanks again

I think that blogger has oversimplified the matter for general dissemination.

I think he's really saying that the assailant needn't actually begin an attack. The intruder most assuredly posed a threat due to the physical condition of elderly man.

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There is no "automatic" grounds for use of force. No matter whatever the particulars may be, you must be able to articulate why you were in fear for your life or great bodily harm.

 

There was a large disparity of force (much stronger attacker) in the case with the old man on oxygen. In the same scenario, if there was no weapon present, an average adult male MAY NOT have been justified in the use of force. It really, really depends on the material facts of each instance.

 

 

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In any event you will not be provided the time to rethink legalities, the law as written, any of that. You will have at most seconds to think if you, or anyone else's life is in danger due to the situation. If you are in fear of your, or anyone else's life or great bodily harm you do what you have to do to prevent that harm from happening, by stopping an action with whatever methods or tools are available. It may be a skillet, 2x4, or a firearm, when fear of death or great bodily harm is imminent the law doesn't discriminate as to the tool used.

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In any event you will not be provided the time to rethink legalities, the law as written, any of that. You will have at most seconds to think if you, or anyone else's life is in danger due to the situation. If you are in fear of your, or anyone else's life or great bodily harm you do what you have to do to prevent that harm from happening, by stopping an action with whatever methods or tools are available. It may be a skillet, 2x4, or a firearm, when fear of death or great bodily harm is imminent the law doesn't discriminate as to the tool used.

 

Well that's the part that confuses me. I thought that entering a residence in "a riotious manner" or whatever meant lethal force was justified. I would be scared out of my mind, being a very shy and anxious person.

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if someone breaks a window or a door and comes in i would think deadly force can be used,if i am in my living room watching tv and the door gets kicked in i will give about 10 seconds for them to follow my order to leave,after that the threat is in my mind life threatening,it will not end well for the offenders.

If their intent is to harm you then 10 seconds is about 8 seconds longer than they need after kicking in your door. Myself in that situation wouldn’t give them any warning nor any time to retreat. I’ll choose my life and that of my families first every time. Their intent is of no concern to me and I won’t play mind reader to see if they’ll leave once realizing I’m armed.

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In any event you will not be provided the time to rethink legalities, the law as written, any of that. You will have at most seconds to think if you, or anyone else's life is in danger due to the situation. If you are in fear of your, or anyone else's life or great bodily harm you do what you have to do to prevent that harm from happening, by stopping an action with whatever methods or tools are available. It may be a skillet, 2x4, or a firearm, when fear of death or great bodily harm is imminent the law doesn't discriminate as to the tool used.

 

Well that's the part that confuses me. I thought that entering a residence in "a riotious manner" or whatever meant lethal force was justified. I would be scared out of my mind, being a very shy and anxious person.

 

IL laws and the laws of most states are written vaguely just to cause confusion. My interpretation, which could be wrong, is if they kick the door open or break through a window, then it comes under the forcible felony definition of riotious entry, and could be grounds for deadly force, but if they just walk in or pick the lock then no, unless they produce a weapon, or make motions that could lead to serious bodily harm or injury.

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A neighbor described the neighborhood as "very bad" and said that his own home had been broken into five times since he's moved, reports the Sun-Times.

As the homeowner killed Anterrio Hall, he could face homicide charges. However, as Illinois self defense laws are somewhat liberal, it's unlikely that the homeowner will be convicted of a crime.

Arsenio Hall is dead?

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In any event you will not be provided the time to rethink legalities, the law as written, any of that. You will have at most seconds to think if you, or anyone else's life is in danger due to the situation. If you are in fear of your, or anyone else's life or great bodily harm you do what you have to do to prevent that harm from happening, by stopping an action with whatever methods or tools are available. It may be a skillet, 2x4, or a firearm, when fear of death or great bodily harm is imminent the law doesn't discriminate as to the tool used.

 

Well that's the part that confuses me. I thought that entering a residence in "a riotious manner" or whatever meant lethal force was justified. I would be scared out of my mind, being a very shy and anxious person.

 

IL laws and the laws of most states are written vaguely just to cause confusion. My interpretation, which could be wrong, is if they kick the door open or break through a window, then it comes under the forcible felony definition of riotious entry, and could be grounds for deadly force, but if they just walk in or pick the lock then no, unless they produce a weapon, or make motions that could lead to serious bodily harm or injury.

 

 

This can be confusing. If I hear someone making a ruckus in my kitchen, I poke my head out and it's someone in my house....how I am supposed to know at that moment if they walked through an unlocked door, or if they broke a window and came in from the basement? Either way, someone in my house, unauthorized, I am not going to have a conversation with the guy about whats right and wrong. Those 5 seconds might be all he needs to pull out his weapon or his buddy to come around the corner.

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In any event you will not be provided the time to rethink legalities, the law as written, any of that. You will have at most seconds to think if you, or anyone else's life is in danger due to the situation. If you are in fear of your, or anyone else's life or great bodily harm you do what you have to do to prevent that harm from happening, by stopping an action with whatever methods or tools are available. It may be a skillet, 2x4, or a firearm, when fear of death or great bodily harm is imminent the law doesn't discriminate as to the tool used.

 

 

 

Well that's the part that confuses me. I thought that entering a residence in "a riotious manner" or whatever meant lethal force was justified. I would be scared out of my mind, being a very shy and anxious person.

 

 

 

IL laws and the laws of most states are written vaguely just to cause confusion. My interpretation, which could be wrong, is if they kick the door open or break through a window, then it comes under the forcible felony definition of riotious entry, and could be grounds for deadly force, but if they just walk in or pick the lock then no, unless they produce a weapon, or make motions that could lead to serious bodily harm or injury.

 

 

 

 

This can be confusing. If I hear someone making a ruckus in my kitchen, I poke my head out and it's someone in my house....how I am supposed to know at that moment if they walked through an unlocked door, or if they broke a window and came in from the basement? Either way, someone in my house, unauthorized, I am not going to have a conversation with the guy about whats right and wrong. Those 5 seconds might be all he needs to pull out his weapon or his buddy to come around the corner.

You may not know how he got in, but you must be able to assess whether or not the threat of death or great bodily harm exists before you use deadly force.

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Below is IL statute on use of force in protection of dwelling:

 

(720 ILCS 5/7-2) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-2)

Sec. 7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling.

(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if:

(1) The entry is made or attempted in a violent,riotous, or tumultuous manner, and he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent an assault upon, or offer of personal violence to, him or another then in the dwelling, or

(2) He reasonably believes that such force isnecessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.

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I cannot imagine hearing someone breaking forcibly into my home that I was NOT in danger of being killed, or or my wife being killed. Whether or not I would warn the intruder would depend on whether at that moment I felt it safe or unsafe to potentially reveal my location to the attacker. But again, every incident is likely a bit different and pre-planned actions might not work out too well. Forty years ago I came home, with my wife and two of my children, to find the front door ajar and some of our property neatly stacked up by the front door ready to removal. I was not armed at the time, and it was before cell phones. We all retreated and my wife went to the neighbors to call for the police. Being unarmed it did not even cross my mind to enter the house to investigate what was going on. If this happened now, and I were armed, I am not sure how I would really react, but I would hope that since the burglar was either gone or in my house, and I was outside the house so it is unlikely that I would reasonably feel personally threatened.

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I can't find much about the author's, Andrew Lu's, background except for the fact that he used to blog about everything on the The Chicago Employment Law Blog, The Chicago Family Law Blog, The Chicago DUI Blog, The Chicago Personal Injury Law Blog, etc.

He did offer a somewhat better explanation in his 3/26/2013 blog entry:

...
The use of force typically requires the person claiming self-defense to prove the following elements:


Belief that force is necessary. The individual using self-defense must have a reasonable belief that the force is necessary to defend himself. For example, if someone accidentally bumps into you or says some insulting comment in passing, there likely is no reasonable belief that force is necessary to defend yourself.

Amount of force used is reasonable. Just as you must reasonably believe that force is necessary, the amount of force you use also must be reasonable. This means you can't shoot someone over a shove or take some other over-the-top action that escalates the incident.

Defense against unlawful force. You can only use self-defense if you are defending yourself against imminent use of unlawful force. So the threat of force must be imminent and pressing, and you must be confronted with force -- not something less like verbal insults.

...

 


He seems to have disappeared sometime in 2014 or so.

 

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In any event you will not be provided the time to rethink legalities, the law as written, any of that. You will have at most seconds to think if you, or anyone else's life is in danger due to the situation. If you are in fear of your, or anyone else's life or great bodily harm you do what you have to do to prevent that harm from happening, by stopping an action with whatever methods or tools are available. It may be a skillet, 2x4, or a firearm, when fear of death or great bodily harm is imminent the law doesn't discriminate as to the tool used.

 

Well that's the part that confuses me. I thought that entering a residence in "a riotious manner" or whatever meant lethal force was justified. I would be scared out of my mind, being a very shy and anxious person.

 

IL laws and the laws of most states are written vaguely just to cause confusion. My interpretation, which could be wrong, is if they kick the door open or break through a window, then it comes under the forcible felony definition of riotious entry, and could be grounds for deadly force, but if they just walk in or pick the lock then no, unless they produce a weapon, or make motions that could lead to serious bodily harm or injury.

 

picking the lock is forceful as far as i am concerned,they enter without an invite they will find out if i have the balls to use deadly force,ps pretty sure i do.

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I cannot imagine hearing someone breaking forcibly into my home that I was NOT in danger of being killed, or or my wife being killed. Whether or not I would warn the intruder would depend on whether at that moment I felt it safe or unsafe to potentially reveal my location to the attacker. But again, every incident is likely a bit different and pre-planned actions might not work out too well. Forty years ago I came home, with my wife and two of my children, to find the front door ajar and some of our property neatly stacked up by the front door ready to removal. I was not armed at the time, and it was before cell phones. We all retreated and my wife went to the neighbors to call for the police. Being unarmed it did not even cross my mind to enter the house to investigate what was going on. If this happened now, and I were armed, I am not sure how I would really react, but I would hope that since the burglar was either gone or in my house, and I was outside the house so it is unlikely that I would reasonably feel personally threatened.

 

Yeah if someone is breaking in, and I actually have time before they get in, I would like to yell at them from a safe spot that I'm home and the cops are coming, since now it turns into a home invasion if he continues, which is more serious. The alternative is that he just leaves, which is great.

 

I agree that if someone breaks in in a violent manner, I would absolutely feel threatened and terrified. I mean if someone broke in and I knew for a fact by reading their mind that they would punch me in the arm or something and then leave I wouldn't kill them, but you don't know that.

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"Deadly force" is justified as a defense against what the statutes call "forcible felony" and during other instances.

 

 

 

 

(720 ILCS 5/2-8) (from Ch. 38, par. 2-8)

Sec. 2-8. "Forcible felony". "Forcible felony" means treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

(Source: P.A. 88-277; 89-428, eff. 12-13-95; 89-462, eff. 5-29-96.)

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Below is IL statute on use of force in protection of dwelling:

 

(720 ILCS 5/7-2) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-2)

Sec. 7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling.

(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if:

(1) The entry is made or attempted in a violent,riotous, or tumultuous manner, and he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent an assault upon, or offer of personal violence to, him or another then in the dwelling, or

(2) He reasonably believes that such force isnecessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.

The funny thing about that one is criminal trespass to a occupied residence is a class 4 felony.

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Yeah that's the part that is confusing me. Basically, deadly force is justified right from the moment they "break in", regardless of how afraid you are?

 

Or, technically, would "commision of a felony IN the building mean that they already broke in, so the felony is completed, so you have to wait for a NEW felony, like assault/etc.? I think the first one makes more sense than this.

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In any event you will not be provided the time to rethink legalities, the law as written, any of that. You will have at most seconds to think if you, or anyone else's life is in danger due to the situation. If you are in fear of your, or anyone else's life or great bodily harm you do what you have to do to prevent that harm from happening, by stopping an action with whatever methods or tools are available. It may be a skillet, 2x4, or a firearm, when fear of death or great bodily harm is imminent the law doesn't discriminate as to the tool used.

 

Well that's the part that confuses me. I thought that entering a residence in "a riotious manner" or whatever meant lethal force was justified. I would be scared out of my mind, being a very shy and anxious person.

 

i am not shy or anxious but i do believe the the fear factor would be big.

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Someone who breaks into your home while you are home...I operate under the assumption that anyone who is willing to do that, is also more than happy to do harm to me and my family. That's how I see it. You've got the cajones to break in while I'm sleeping, you've got the cajones to kill me, my girlfriend, and my daughter.

 

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

 

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Someone who breaks into your home while you are home...I operate under the assumption that anyone who is willing to do that, is also more than happy to do harm to me and my family. That's how I see it. You've got the cajones to break in while I'm sleeping, you've got the cajones to kill me, my girlfriend, and my daughter. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

Yes I agree

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