Uh-oh: SBR's, CLEO's, ATF, and Illinois.

[davidb]

Finally, sent in app in April. Just got the stamp today. Now what has to be with the rifle? Just the stamp? The whole application with the stamp on it? A copy of the stamp?

[Tvandermyde]

keep a copy of the paperwork -- form 1 or form 4 with you in the gun case when you take it out to the range

[heckler40]

Finally, sent in app in April. Just got the stamp today. Now what has to be with the rifle? Just the stamp? The whole application with the stamp on it? A copy of the stamp?

 

I keep a copy of my FFL on me as well as a shrunken laminated copy of the Form in my gun bag.

[Dcompton]

Not to sound like an a.. but you did engrave the lower, correct? I keep F1 copies in the cases with the SBRs when I take them to the range.

[BAT]

Not to sound like an a.. but you did engrave the lower, correct? I keep F1 copies in the cases with the SBRs when I take them to the range.

Yes, you engrave the lower

[MrTriple]

The HPA isn't enough...we need to push for SBRs to be removed from the NFA. And any federal preemption is useless if we're not gonna go all out and get a preemption statue that completely overrides state and local restrictions. We have a golden opportunity here to roll back a lot of bad federal law, let's follow through.

[Dcompton]

Not to sound like an a.. but you did engrave the lower, correct? I keep F1 copies in the cases with the SBRs when I take them to the range.

 

Yes, you engrave the lower

I was asking if he engraved his lower as it seemed he had some "what do I do now" questions.

[Tvandermyde]

 

Not to sound like an a.. but you did engrave the lower, correct? I keep F1 copies in the cases with the SBRs when I take them to the range.

 

Yes, you engrave the lower

I was asking if he engraved his lower as it seemed he had some "what do I do now" questions.

 

 

guys can you knock it off. ne of the fear mongering tactics of the anti-gunners is that all the federal regulations on things like suppressors are going to be wiped away. I got asked about it in committee and it continues to be a talking point for the sore loosers.

[Hazborgufen]

I keep a photocopy of the C&R and a photocopy of my stamp in the grip of my SBR. Keep the originals somewhere safe. If you lose the original stamp they won't send you another one.

 

If you plan to transport your SBR across state lines you need to send the ATF a Form 20 first for approval. They can grant up to a one year period, so that's what I put on the forms. I have a Form 20 for each state I think I might go to during the year. I'm not sure if the approved Form 20 needs to travel with you or not, nor do I know if a photocopy will suffice if you do need it. I brought the originals with me just in case. If someone could answer that question, I'd appreciate it.

[MrTriple]

Who's the sponsor of the HPA? I'm gonna write him a letter and ask them to push to remove SBRs from the NFA. This is ridiculous, we shouldn't have to deal with this garbage just to exercise our rights.

[davidb]

Engraved of course. Just didn't know if a copy would suffice. Now I do, thanks.

[Capt_Destro]

Am I correct with this process?

 

Also I found in an earlier thread that Todd stated the 26" OAL minimum only applied to re-enactors?

Or has the ATF decided it applies to everyone?

 

What if it meets the 26" OAL requirement but I decide to "temporarily" make a change and go shorter once I get my stamp?

 

http://i.imgur.com/xkmqtZO.jpg

 

I'd love to SBR this but I'd need to change it to atleast an 8.5" 9mm barrel to barely meet that "requirement".

 

-Obtain a C&R License.

-Fill out form, send appropriate copy to Chief LEO

-Mail form out/pay tax fee

-Wait

-Once approved engrave lower

-Profit!?

[X Ring]

Can't answer your question about the 26" OAL, but those are the steps to getting your tax stamp. Some people recommend getting your lower engraved first before sending in your ATF Form 1's. This way if the engraver screws up the spelling it'll be OK as you can fill out the Form 1 to match the lower. Other way around your screwed. Lower wont match the Form 1.

[Capt_Destro]

I also wanted to add to my question.

 

Since the 26" OAL rule is a stat law. Do non pinned muzzle devices count toward the OAL?

 

It's sorta stupid since a butt pad would.

[Hazborgufen]

Reading the law will show that having an SBR that is less than 26" OAL is legal for C&R holders. The 26" restriction is only for reenactors. The problem is that English doesn't appear to be the first language for ATF regulators so they think that SBRs need to be greater than 26" OAL for everyone in Illinois and will simply reject any application listing anything less.

 

As for making 26" OAL, you are right than buttpads count toward the length. However, per an opinion letter that you can find floating around, muzzle devices that aren't permanently attached do not count. Really dumb, but that's the way it is.

 

If you are coming up short on OAL, put a buttpad on your stock. Heck, put two or more. Put as many buttpads on that you need. Duck tape them all together. Whatever. That's your registered configuration. Once you have your stamp, take the extra buttpads and duck tape off and toss them in a closet. You are now temporarily in a different configuration. As long as you keep the extra buttpads and duck tape you are able to return the rifle to the registered configuration.

 

I'm not a lawyer so you'll need to make the decision to do this yourself. Re-read the relevant sections in Illinois law and decide what you think the correct interpretation of the OAL section is.

[InterestedBystander]

 

 

As for making 26" OAL, you are right than buttpads count toward the length. However, per an opinion letter that you can find floating around, muzzle devices that aren't permanently attached do not count. Really dumb, but that's the way it is.

 

If you are coming up short on OAL, put a buttpad on your stock. Heck, put two or more. Put as many buttpads on that you need. Duck tape them all together. Whatever. That's your registered configuration. Once you have your stamp, take the extra buttpads and duck tape off and toss them in a closet. You are now temporarily in a different configuration. As long as you keep the extra buttpads and duck tape you are able to return the rifle to the registered configuration.

 

I'm not a lawyer so you'll need to make the decision to do this yourself. Re-read the relevant sections in Illinois law and decide what you think the correct interpretation of the OAL section is.

There are some bills iirc that have been submitted to fix the 26 OAL length, no doubt also languishing in some future sub committee.

[Buzzard]

Suppose a person wanted to purchase a Thompson M1 SBR, 10.5" Barrel, Semi-Auto Carbine. This is a replica of a squad leader weapon of WWII. Would a membership in a WWII reenactment group such as the World War Two Historical Reenactment Society satisfy the ATF requirement? Or must a person participate in reenactments such as those at Midway Village in Rockford?

[InterestedBystander]

Or just get your C &R license.

[Buzzard]

Suppose a person wanted to purchase a Thompson M1 SBR, 10.5" Barrel, Semi-Auto Carbine. This is a replica of a squad leader weapon of WWII. Would a membership in a WWII reenactment group such as the World War Two Historical Reenactment Society satisfy the ATF requirement? Or must a person participate in reenactments such as those at Midway Village in Rockford?

Or just get your C &R license.

 

Not enough benefits from what I see. I'm near the end of my gun buyin' days and I've gone this long without buyin' a license from the ATF. I may still buy a nice target .22 pistol. But I'd sure like a Thompson M1 SBR. The ATF might think I'm cheatin' on my log books if I only buy one rifle. I don't know if it's even on their list. Then I have to write them to include it. Geez!

[InterestedBystander]

Didn't think SBR needed to be on their CR list, just having the license is sufficient, but I could've wrong.

[Buzzard]

Didn't think SBR needed to be on their CR list, just having the license is sufficient, but I could've wrong.

 

As I understand, according to Illinois law, getting a C&R license allows you to possess a SBR. But if you get a license, you have to log in your purchases. Does that mean that mean that SBR AR-15s and such modern SBRs don't get logged in? This particular piece IS on their list, so if I DON"T log it in, I'm up the creek the first time they check my log. And the ATF is so wishy washy with their rulings anyway, I don't really want to involve them any more than necessary. I don't want to mess with logs.

 

I was just pouring through their list. I found THIS on page 50:

 

Thompson, model 1927, semiautomatic carbine, caliber .45 ACP

 

I'm not sure if the military's Thompson M1 10.5 carbine is technically a model 1927 or not. The loading lever is on the side for one thing, which means it's a different receiver. Maybe Todd V. could shed some light on this. He's a military gun man.

 

Getting back to the reenactor thing. I used to be a Civil War reenactor, so it's not a stretch for me to become a WWII reenactor. It all fits my profile already. I join a reenactor group and I'm legit. No ATF, No log books, no inspections. Where's the downside?

[Dcompton]

You only log what you buy that is C&R eligible. I have had mine since the SBR thing became legal and my C&R bound book is shiny, new and empty. You're not buying C&R, you are holding a required FFL to own an SBR. It's like the state saying you have to have a liquor license to own a sleek looking sports car. If you hold a liquor license you must know about alcohol and you won't drink and drive. They aren't really related...but they kinda are because the state made them that way. Clear as mud?

[Buzzard]

You only log what you buy that is C&R eligible. I have had mine since the SBR thing became legal and my C&R bound book is shiny, new and empty. You're not buying C&R, you are holding a required FFL to own an SBR. It's like the state saying you have to have a liquor license to own a sleek looking sports car. If you hold a liquor license you must know about alcohol and you won't drink and drive. They aren't really related...but they kinda are because the state made them that way. Clear as mud?

 

Dc, as I stated in post #952, I believe the Thompson Semi Auto I'm after IS C&R eligible, therefore if I went the C&R route, I WOULD have to log it. Not to mention do a LOT MORE paperwork AND buy a $200 ATF stamp. I may as well try to go Class III, although a full auto Thomson is probably beyond my budget - I haven't even priced one. The only concern I have is it's a REPLICA and not a 50 yr. old relic. The reason I desire this Thompson is NOT because it's an SBR, but because it is an accurate appearing replica of the WWII weapon, that's all.

 

Membership in the World War II Historical Reenactment Society is $20 and that's all I would need. I don't want a modern, SBR, range play toy. I want a WWII Thompson M1 replica that DOESN'T have the long a** INCORRECT APPEARING 16" barrel. I am legitimately trying to possess a correct appearing weapon that has a SBR configuration that is "necessary to accurately portray the weapon for historical re-enactment purposes." That's it.

 

(7) A person possessing a rifle with a barrel or

barrels less than 16 inches in length if: (A) the person

has been issued a Curios and Relics license from the U.S.

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; or

the person is an active member of a bona fide, nationally

recognized military re-enacting group and the modification

is required and necessary to accurately portray the weapon

for historical re-enactment purposes; the re-enactor is in

possession of a valid and current re-enacting group

membership credential; and the overall length of the weapon

as modified is not less than 26 inches.

[Buzzard]

Actually, I oughta be able to own this with my FOID in a perfect world. It fires .45 ACP - not some hot, rifle cartridge!

[Buzzard]

Ok, I come to believe the WWII Thompson M1A1 is actually a Model 1928 submachine gun. Here are all the Thompson examples that are listed in the ATF's Curio and Relics List. :

 

 

Thompson, model 1927, semiautomatic carbine, caliber .45 ACP.

Thompson, submachineguns including all models, prototypes, & variations actually mfd. in or before 1945.

Thompson submachinegun, Model M1, .45 cal., mfd. by Auto Ordnance Corporation, West Hurley, New York, between 1985 and 1986, having S/Ns from M100A to M717A.

Thompson, model 1928, Korean War Commemorative submachineguns, cal. .45 produced by Auto Ordnance, West Hurley, NY.

 

Please Note - There is only one semiautomatic carbine listed, a model 1927. Therefore, To be absolutely sure that I have satisfied the ATF's requirements to own this particular Thompson while holding a C&R license, I would have to also do the following:

COLLECTORS WANTING A DETERMINATION

Collectors desiring to obtain a determination as to whether a particular firearm qualifies for classification as a curio or

relic in accordance with 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.26 or a collector's item in accordance with§ 479.25 and § 479.24 should submit a written request for a ruling. The letter should include:

1) A complete physical description of the item;

2) Reasons the collector believes the item merits the classification; and

3) Data concerning the history of the item, including production figures,

if available and market value.

As stated in the regulations, submission of the firearm maybe required prior to a determination being made.

Please submit your request to:

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Firearms Technology Branch

244 Needy Road

Martinsburg, WV 25405

Now, I could just spin the wheel of chance and not log the gun into the ATF C&R log book because it's not in their list and pray that some agent doesn't determine it IS in there somewhere. But that's not me. No, I'd want to play it safe and satisfy their every whim and obtain a determination.

OH BOY! MORE RED TAPE!

Or, I could send $20 to the WWII HRS and be good to go. No ATF. No Log Book. No $200 stamp. No determination. Now honestly, what would you do?

 

[Dcompton]

Just because you have a C&R, doesn't mean you have to use your C&R to purchase it. Buy it and transfer it through another FFL and your done. Also, you mentioned "replica" in our post. If it is a "replica" the item most likely isn't C&R eligible anyway.

 

And if it is a rifle with a barrel less than 16" you still have to pay the tax and get a stamp. It is still an NFA item and requires registration.

[Buzzard]

Just because you have a C&R, doesn't mean you have to use your C&R to purchase it. Buy it and transfer it through another FFL and your done. Also, you mentioned "replica" in our post. If it is a "replica" the item most likely isn't C&R eligible anyway. And if it is a rifle with a barrel less than 16" you still have to pay the tax and get a stamp. It is still an NFA item and requires registration.

 

Thanks Dc! That's information I can use. I was wondering about the replica thing.

 

So I can't side step the stamp. huh? Bummer. What's a poor reenactor to do? Well, it will be a while before I can afford that Thompson anyway. And I do want a target pistol, so it may be a while before all this happens. But thanks for straightening me out, stamp-wise!

[Hazborgufen]

If it has a barrel that is less that 16" then you need an NFA stamp regardless. The Illinois law is only the exception to the state's own Unlawful Use of Weapons law, it doesn't bypass Federal law.

 

As for your hope to simply pay $20 to a historical society and buy the replica, that also probably doesn't help you either. The part of the law you are looking at specifically says:

 

the person is an an active member of a bona fide, nationally recognized military re-enacting group and the modification is required and necessary to accurately portray the weapon for historical re-enactment purposes.

 

So by my reading, simply paying to be a member of a group isn't enough to qualify. You need to be an active member (which you might squeak by with a simple membership) but the second part indicates that you need to be portraying the weapon in a re-enactment.

 

Granted, nobody will likely know and you'll probably get away with it. But a $20 annual membership for the World War II Historical Reenactment Society compared with a $30 every 3 years fee for an FFL03 means you are spending more and getting less in the long run.

[Dcompton]

 

Just because you have a C&R, doesn't mean you have to use your C&R to purchase it. Buy it and transfer it through another FFL and your done. Also, you mentioned "replica" in our post. If it is a "replica" the item most likely isn't C&R eligible anyway. And if it is a rifle with a barrel less than 16" you still have to pay the tax and get a stamp. It is still an NFA item and requires registration.

 

 

 

Thanks Dc! That's information I can use. I was wondering about the replica thing.

 

So I can't side step the stamp. huh? Bummer. What's a poor reenactor to do? Well, it will be a while before I can afford that Thompson anyway. And I do want a target pistol, so it may be a while before all this happens. But thanks for straightening me out, stamp-wise!

 

Yeah, no side stepping the $200 stamp. It's a federal regulation. Sorry to burst your bubble.