"Flash" mobs in downtown Chicago

[Euler]

 

The bad guy is 25 feet away and demands your wallet and displays a knife. Do you pull your gun and tell him to stop, or do you wait for him to get closer then draw and shoot, or do you draw and shoot when you see the knife?

It`s a simple question, why is it so hard to answer? Your opinion is your`s. What would you do if my example?

 

I draw and aim when I see the knife and hear the demand. I'll probably tell him to run away, but I'm under no obligation to speak. I fire if he moves toward me, even from 20 ft away.

 

If he stands there telling me how no one likes him, he probably WANTS me to shoot him. Maybe I'll use the time to dial 911. Maybe Apple should market their watch this way. "Hey, Siri, call 911." Now there's a case for hands-free dialing.

[soylentgreen]

 

It`s a simple question, why is it so hard to answer? Your opinion is your`s. What would you do if my example?

 

 

 

So you're asking me what I'd do in a situation you can't provide any evidence has actually happened to anyone in the real world?

 

What would you do if an extraterrestrial pointed a ray gun at you?

 

I pull my gun and shoot when I have a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm.

[WitchDoctor]

soylentgreen said:

 

"I pull my gun and shoot when I have a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm."

 

And that reasonable fear may present itself at any distance...

[seanc]

 

 

It`s a simple question, why is it so hard to answer? Your opinion is your`s. What would you do if my example?

 

 

 

So you're asking me what I'd do in a situation you can't provide any evidence has actually happened to anyone in the real world?

 

What would you do if an extraterrestrial pointed a ray gun at you?

 

I pull my gun and shoot when I have a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm.

 

 

This thread has devolved into the usual "superior scenario" contest, with an NRA Instructor, no less. I know who I will not be wanting any training from, that's for sure.

[ChicagoRonin70]

I will say unequivocally that the "if you draw your firearm, you need to shoot" mindset is utterly stupid. I have had seven incidents where I've needed to either make known I had a firearm without any question, or have had to draw my firearm defensively, in the past 3.5 years, and have not needed to shoot in order to stop the threat. I've posted about several of them on here, and I've also filed police reports on them, as well as had legal consultation about them on multiple occasions. In five of those, the mere presentation of my firearm caused the person to run away before I would have even been able to pull the trigger.

 

In the other two, one of which I wrote about on here (some might remember the story of the three hipster jerks and the robber I posted), while I certainly had time to pull the trigger, there was sufficient distance that the threat wasn't immediate, but there was certainly an imminent danger. The robber had a handgun and was pointing it at the three kids, and could certainly have tried to turn it on me from the 15–20 feet away, even though I had the laser sight on my firearm targeted on his upper side chest. In the other incident, a belligerent drunk fool got out of his vehicle at an intersection and took a baseball bat out of his truck bed, and was verbally threatening me as I was standing on the grass easement with my dog. He was probably 30 feet or so away when he got out of his truck. In both incidents, I had more than enough time to shoot these people, who most definitely had the means and intent to cause harm. However, the sight of my firearm, or the knowledge that it was aimed directly on their bodies, prevented the need for me to escalate to actual shooting.

 

So, no, if you have time to draw your firearm, you DON'T need to shoot, and in some cases if you did so, it might have been unnecessary since the defensive display stopped the threat, which is the goal of carrying a firearm for self-protection.

[Mr. Fife]

I'm sure the perps watched the NRA commando training video and know you won't shoot from 25 feet away.

[gangrel]

I will say unequivocally that the "if you draw your firearm, you need to shoot" mindset is utterly stupid. I have had seven incidents where I've needed to either make known I had a firearm without any question, or have had to draw my firearm defensively, in the past 3.5 years, and have not needed to shoot in order to stop the threat. I've posted about several of them on here, and I've also filed police reports on them, as well as had legal consultation about them on multiple occasions. In five of those, the mere presentation of my firearm caused the person to run away before I would have even been able to pull the trigger. In the other two, one of which I wrote about on here (some might remember the story of the three hipster jerks and the robber I posted), while I certainly had time to pull the trigger, there was sufficient distance that the threat wasn't immediate, but there was certainly an imminent danger. The robber had a handgun and was pointing it at the three kids, and could certainly have tried to turn it on me from the 15â20 feet away, even though I had the laser sight on my firearm targeted on his upper side chest. In the other incident, a belligerent drunk fool got out of his vehicle at an intersection and took a baseball bat out of his truck bed, and was verbally threatening me as I was standing on the grass easement with my dog. He was probably 30 feet or so away when he got out of his truck. In both incidents, I had more than enough time to shoot these people, who most definitely had the means and intent to cause harm. However, the sight of my firearm, or the knowledge that it was aimed directly on their bodies, prevented the need for me to escalate to actual shooting. So, no, if you have time to draw your firearm, you DON'T need to shoot, and in some cases if you did so, it might have been unnecessary since the defensive display stopped the threat, which is the goal of carrying a firearm for self-protection.

7. Nice.

 

1) If you draw, you don't "need to shoot", and no one here is saying that. If you draw you better INTEND to shoot and be within lawful parameters to shoot. Starting to feel like a broken record here.

 

2) if you've had to present your firearm defensively 7 times in the last 3.5 years, you're probably doing it wrong. But we've already had this conversation. Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[ChicagoRonin70]

Gangrel,

 

Yes, I remember that you showed your lack of sense and intelligence regarding what I wrote about of my various encounters, but considering that I've actually reported some of them to law enforcement, as well as had legal advisement from my attorneys in relation to them, I have to conclude that you really don't know what you are talking about, nor do you happen to have any real-world experience in frequenting such places and at the times that I do. Nor do you have any comprehension of what is going on in areas of Chicago, despite it being extremely well-documented both online and in various media outlets.

 

Therefore, your viewpoint is worthless and can be completely discounted as having any validity or meaning in this context.

 

My guess is that if you found yourself in any one of those situations that I was in, you'd have handled it much worse than I did, and likely ended up shooting someone when it wasn't necessary. That would be my definition of "doing it wrong."

[gangrel]

Gangrel, Yes, I remember that you showed your lack of sense and intelligence regarding what I wrote about of my various encounters, but considering that I've actually reported some of them to law enforcement, as well as had legal advisement from my attorneys in relation to them, I have to conclude that you really don't know what you are talking about, nor do you happen to have any real-world experience in frequenting such places and at the times that I do. Nor do you have any comprehension of what is going on in areas of Chicago, despite it being extremely well-documented both online and in various media outlets. Therefore, your viewpoint is worthless and can be completely discounted as having any validity or meaning in this context. My guess is that if you found yourself in any one of those situations that I was in, you'd have handled it much worse than I did, and likely ended up shooting someone when it wasn't necessary. That would be my definition of "doing it wrong."

I am quite well aware of what is going on in Chicago, and have quite enough real world experience in frequenting such areas to know that the first rule of urban survival is avoiding trouble. But since your memory is so good, I am sure you recall me talking about avoidance, like for example, taking the lit sidewalk around the block instead of the shortcut down the unlit alley. Yes, it's your right to go where you want, but survival isn't about rights, it's about choices. When your choices repeatedly leave you no choice but to present your firearm, the neighborhood is likely only a contributing factor.

 

The sidearm is a tool of last resort. 7 times in 3.5 years at last resort sounds like something is broken.Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[WitchDoctor]

Gentlemen, we are getting too far off from the OP's original question. Let's not make this personal. We are on the same team and this kind of behavior just invites the Anti's to further their agenda. We need to stay strong and united or divided we fall. Let's just agree to disagree and move on

[soylentgreen]

soylentgreen said:

 

"I pull my gun and shoot when I have a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm."

 

And that reasonable fear may present itself at any distance...

 

100% true. But not necessarily true for a knife. A knife-wielding person verbally threatening you from 100 yards is not a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. If he runs toward you, you decide what distance it's reasonable to use force against him.

[jim123]

I will say unequivocally that the "if you draw your firearm, you need to shoot" mindset is utterly stupid. I have had seven incidents where I've needed to either make known I had a firearm without any question, or have had to draw my firearm defensively, in the past 3.5 years, and have not needed to shoot in order to stop the threat. I've posted about several of them on here, and I've also filed police reports on them, as well as had legal consultation about them on multiple occasions. In five of those, the mere presentation of my firearm caused the person to run away before I would have even been able to pull the trigger.

 

In the other two, one of which I wrote about on here (some might remember the story of the three hipster jerks and the robber I posted), while I certainly had time to pull the trigger, there was sufficient distance that the threat wasn't immediate, but there was certainly an imminent danger. The robber had a handgun and was pointing it at the three kids, and could certainly have tried to turn it on me from the 15–20 feet away, even though I had the laser sight on my firearm targeted on his upper side chest. In the other incident, a belligerent drunk fool got out of his vehicle at an intersection and took a baseball bat out of his truck bed, and was verbally threatening me as I was standing on the grass easement with my dog. He was probably 30 feet or so away when he got out of his truck. In both incidents, I had more than enough time to shoot these people, who most definitely had the means and intent to cause harm. However, the sight of my firearm, or the knowledge that it was aimed directly on their bodies, prevented the need for me to escalate to actual shooting.

 

So, no, if you have time to draw your firearm, you DON'T need to shoot, and in some cases if you did so, it might have been unnecessary since the defensive display stopped the threat, which is the goal of carrying a firearm for self-protection.

Please tell us about the other five instances...

[quackersmacker]

This is a great story. btw, the good guy drew on a guy with a gun, but did not shoot

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/05/john-boch/good-guy-with-a-gun-interrupts-armed-robbery-in-worcester-ma/?utm_source=Boomtrain&bt_alias=eyJ1c2VySWQiOiAiMCJ9&utm_medium=manual&utm_campaign=20180518

[gangrel]

This is a great story. btw, the good guy drew on a guy with a gun, but did not shoot

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/05/john-boch/good-guy-with-a-gun-interrupts-armed-robbery-in-worcester-ma/?utm_source=Boomtrain&bt_alias=eyJ1c2VySWQiOiAiMCJ9&utm_medium=manual&utm_campaign=20180518

Also note where the story went (And could have gone) when the CCW switched from stop the threat mode to take the peep into custody mode. This is a feel-good story and a cautionary tale all rolled into one.

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

 

[quackersmacker]

 

This is a great story. btw, the good guy drew on a guy with a gun, but did not shoot

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/05/john-boch/good-guy-with-a-gun-interrupts-armed-robbery-in-worcester-ma/?utm_source=Boomtrain&bt_alias=eyJ1c2VySWQiOiAiMCJ9&utm_medium=manual&utm_campaign=20180518

Also note where the story went (And could have gone) when the CCW switched from stop the threat mode to take the peep into custody mode. This is a feel-good story and a cautionary tale all rolled into one.

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

Yes, the CCW is probably lucky he didn't get shot with his own gun, absolutely.

[ChicagoRonin70]

 

I will say unequivocally that the "if you draw your firearm, you need to shoot" mindset is utterly stupid. I have had seven incidents where I've needed to either make known I had a firearm without any question, or have had to draw my firearm defensively, in the past 3.5 years, and have not needed to shoot in order to stop the threat. I've posted about several of them on here, and I've also filed police reports on them, as well as had legal consultation about them on multiple occasions. In five of those, the mere presentation of my firearm caused the person to run away before I would have even been able to pull the trigger.

 

In the other two, one of which I wrote about on here (some might remember the story of the three hipster jerks and the robber I posted), while I certainly had time to pull the trigger, there was sufficient distance that the threat wasn't immediate, but there was certainly an imminent danger. The robber had a handgun and was pointing it at the three kids, and could certainly have tried to turn it on me from the 15–20 feet away, even though I had the laser sight on my firearm targeted on his upper side chest. In the other incident, a belligerent drunk fool got out of his vehicle at an intersection and took a baseball bat out of his truck bed, and was verbally threatening me as I was standing on the grass easement with my dog. He was probably 30 feet or so away when he got out of his truck. In both incidents, I had more than enough time to shoot these people, who most definitely had the means and intent to cause harm. However, the sight of my firearm, or the knowledge that it was aimed directly on their bodies, prevented the need for me to escalate to actual shooting.

 

So, no, if you have time to draw your firearm, you DON'T need to shoot, and in some cases if you did so, it might have been unnecessary since the defensive display stopped the threat, which is the goal of carrying a firearm for self-protection.

Please tell us about the other five instances...

 

 

I've actually written about them on this board previously. Here are four of them:

 

Two times around 2:00 a.m. when I was walking to a friend's place on Retardi Gras (St. Patrick's Day) 2015, I had jump-out gangs in cars do U-turns and start tracking me from along the curb, once on Belmont right in front of Giordano's, then a separate incident 15 minutes later on Halsted just north of Belmont. Both times, I saw them, put my back into a doorway, pointed at the vehicles, which had 3 or 4 African American gentlemen in them, and reached very deliberately into my sweatshirt where I was carrying my concealed firearm and started to draw it. Both times, once they saw me do that, the vehicles screeched off at high speed, because they were not inclined to deal with someone who wasn't a clueless victim and who was carrying a firearm.

 

Something to note, three people got attacked in that neighborhood the same way that evening, and that was right in the middle of a spate of numerous group muggings on lone walkers in Lakeview and surrounding neighborhoods that year.

 

http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=55490&hl=halsted&do=findComment&comment=884431

 

Another two happened the same year. The first, in January 2015, was well after midnight, when I was taking my dog out for a late walk because my insomnia was acting up. That guy later mugged someone in my neighborhood, and I saw him lurking in the areas several times over a month-long period. The second one was several months later, when I was heading home around one night, and a well-known "retired" thug in that area, who had run ins with local businesses and area residents, came out of an alley at me. Incidentally, and it was posted about on this board, that guy was shot and killed by another concealed carrier about six months later, when he started a fight with him and tried to strangle the CCWer.

 

http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=58346&page=2&do=findComment&comment=940303

 

The fifth one was in May of 2016, when I was walking with my service dog, and a young honor student thought I was blind, due to the service dog, my cane, and my sunglasses. I believe he said, "What are you going to do, you blind-@ss b!tch?" He tried to steal my dog off of the leash, so I shoved him away with the pointy end of my walking implement, whereupon he got upset and came at me again, so I drew defensively on him and he got a look down the barrel of it from a few feet away. Again, understandably, he made a rapid retreat and dashed down an alley at top speed. This was right at the alley on the north west side of Kimball, just north past Montrose. It was also in the afternoon, just before 5 p.m., as I was walking to the train station to meet my wife.

 

So, pretty much, any worthless opinions as to me being where I shouldn't be, at times I ostensibly shouldn't be out walking around, are full of something that comes out of the south-bound end of a north-bound male bovine.

 

And even the ones that happened late in the evenings, that applies as well. I have insomnia issues, so I often go out walking at night, and most of my socializing is done much later than the usual, since many of my friends are only available well after dark.

 

Not to mention, I'm allowed to go where I want, when I want, and I'm not about to let criminal fools curtail my rights to travel freely and do what I need to do when minding my own business.

 

Anyone who disagrees is, quite frankly, an idiot.

[NRApistol]

According to Gun Facts , guns are used 2 million times a year to prevent violent crimes, 98% of the time without a shot being fired.

 

A victim may have a strong reluctance to talk to a government agent about a firearm brandishing incident (which are 98% of Defensive Gun Uses) because they may not know the act was 100% legal.

Source: http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/7.1/Gun-Facts-7.1-screen.pdf, page 83.

[Mr. Fife]

 

What are you going to do? Shoot me?

Those are famous last words.https://nytimes.com/2006/10/05/nyregion/05kill.html

[Odinson]

According to Gun Facts , guns are used 2 million times a year to prevent violent crimes, 98% of the time without a shot being fired.

 

A victim may have a strong reluctance to talk to a government agent about a firearm brandishing incident (which are 98% of Defensive Gun Uses) because they may not know the act was 100% legal.

 

Source: http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/7.1/Gun-Facts-7.1-screen.pdf, page 83.

 

Unless the government agent is the one getting brandished:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/concealed-carry-holder-charged-with-felony-after-brandishing-gun-on-i-90-isp/

 

A concealed carry permit holder is facing a felony charge after he allegedly brandished a handgun Saturday while riding in a vehicle on the Kennedy Expressway.

Officers stopped a gray Honda sedan about 6:20 p.m. on Interstate 90 at Nagle Avenue and took 28-year-old Charles R. Peterson into custody after finding a loaded handgun in the vehicle’s center console, Illinois State Police said.

An off-duty Chicago Police officer reported Peterson was following him and had shown the gun after cutting him off in traffic, state police said. The handgun was found with a live round in the chamber and a loaded magazine was found near the gun.

 

Peterson, of East Dundee, had a valid FOID card and a concealed carry license, state police said. He was identified by the off-duty officer and was subsequently charged with a felony count of aggravated unlawful use of a weapon and a misdemeanor count of aggravated assault.

He was released from Cook County Jail on Sunday after posting $3,000 bond, according to the Cook County Sheriff’s Office.

[Mr. Fife]

 

An off-duty Chicago Police officer reported Peterson was following him and had shown the gun after cutting him off in traffic, state police said.

Never draw your gun to threaten. Ask Peterson how that worked out. He's lucky he didn't catch a bullet himself.

[soylentgreen]

 

An off-duty Chicago Police officer reported Peterson was following him and had shown the gun after cutting him off in traffic, state police said.

Never draw your gun to threaten. Ask Peterson how that worked out. He's lucky he didn't catch a bullet himself.

 

 

Yup.

 

My guess is he will plead to a lesser charge and lose his CCL and FOID for life. Over a dumb traffic altercation. This presumes the story is accurate. I wouldn't put it past a Chicago cop to lie.

[ChicagoRonin70]

 

According to Gun Facts , guns are used 2 million times a year to prevent violent crimes, 98% of the time without a shot being fired.

 

A victim may have a strong reluctance to talk to a government agent about a firearm brandishing incident (which are 98% of Defensive Gun Uses) because they may not know the act was 100% legal.

 

Source: http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/7.1/Gun-Facts-7.1-screen.pdf, page 83.

 

Unless the government agent is the one getting brandished:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/concealed-carry-holder-charged-with-felony-after-brandishing-gun-on-i-90-isp/

 

A concealed carry permit holder is facing a felony charge after he allegedly brandished a handgun Saturday while riding in a vehicle on the Kennedy Expressway.

Officers stopped a gray Honda sedan about 6:20 p.m. on Interstate 90 at Nagle Avenue and took 28-year-old Charles R. Peterson into custody after finding a loaded handgun in the vehicle’s center console, Illinois State Police said.

An off-duty Chicago Police officer reported Peterson was following him and had shown the gun after cutting him off in traffic, state police said. The handgun was found with a live round in the chamber and a loaded magazine was found near the gun.

 

Peterson, of East Dundee, had a valid FOID card and a concealed carry license, state police said. He was identified by the off-duty officer and was subsequently charged with a felony count of aggravated unlawful use of a weapon and a misdemeanor count of aggravated assault.

He was released from Cook County Jail on Sunday after posting $3,000 bond, according to the Cook County Sheriff’s Office.

 

 

The crappy reporting in that story makes it unclear if the cop cut off the CCW holder or if the CCW holder cut off the cop.

 

In any event, this is NOT a situation that warranted the brandishing of a firearm, unless the off-duty cop was trying to run the CCW holder off the road, or had done something similar to threatening the CCW holder with his own firearm for being cut off.

 

Clarity is necessary here.

[NRApistol]

 

An off-duty Chicago Police officer reported Peterson was following him and had shown the gun after cutting him off in traffic, state police said.

Never draw your gun to threaten. Ask Peterson how that worked out. He's lucky he didn't catch a bullet himself.

 

There is a huge difference between a victim pulling his gun to stop the threat and the aggressor pulling his gun to "threaten" the victim. Clouding the issue doesn`t help. You are trying to compare two entirely different circumstances. Take a look at the "The Armed Citizen" and see how many times a gun is used to stop the threat without being fired. This month`s was 3 out of 7.

[Mr. Fife]

I've never said anything different than what I'm saying now. Don't draw to threaten someone. You want clarity but I think you live in your own cloud, I didn't create your cloud, that's something you did on your own to be argumentative with me.

 

You go ahead and threaten people if you want to. Maybe you'll get popped when you draw to threaten somebody, and they decide to end the threat.

 

Perhaps this guy thought the cop was threatening him, was he a student of yours?

[NRApistol]

I didn't create your cloud, that's something you did on your own to be argumentative with me.

Sorry Fife, but I could carry less about being argumentative with you. But I do detest bad info when it comes to concealed carry.

[quackersmacker]

 

 

An off-duty Chicago Police officer reported Peterson was following him and had shown the gun after cutting him off in traffic, state police said.

Never draw your gun to threaten. Ask Peterson how that worked out. He's lucky he didn't catch a bullet himself.

 

There is a huge difference between a victim pulling his gun to stop the threat and the aggressor pulling his gun to "threaten" the victim. Clouding the issue doesn`t help. You are trying to compare two entirely different circumstances. Take a look at the "The Armed Citizen" and see how many times a gun is used to stop the threat without being fired. This month`s was 3 out of 7.

 

+1 er, +3 !

[Mr. Fife]

 

Sorry Fife, but I could carry less about being argumentative with you. But I do detest bad info when it comes to concealed carry.

I guess you forgot about the PM you sent me where you alluded that the ISP approved CLIC curriculum was bad for teaching CCL and only you could teach about the justifiable use of force because of your expert holster skills. Let's hope the next person you threaten is a bad shot.

[gangrel]

 

I didn't create your cloud, that's something you did on your own to be argumentative with me.

 

 

Sorry Fife, but I could carry less about being argumentative with you. But I do detest bad info when it comes to concealed carry.

Then stop giving it.

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

 

[DD123]

 

Sorry Fife, but I could carry less about being argumentative with you. But I do detest bad info when it comes to concealed carry.

I guess you forgot about the PM you sent me where you alluded that the ISP approved CLIC curriculum was bad for teaching CCL and only you could teach about the justifiable use of force because of your expert holster skills. Let's hope the next person you threaten is a bad shot.

 

Fife, this is the internet, where everyone is an expert, meal team 6 super commando, that envisions themselves fast roping into a hot LZ where a bad guy then pulls a knife on you from 25 yards away.

 

ETA: when discussing these scenarios, no one can honestly know exactly what they'll do under pressure, unless they've actually experienced that pressure firsthand. So these "what if" scenarios are just mental masturbation. Train to win, and hopefully when the adrenaline dumps into your bloodstream, you choose flight or fight based on which one is correct. Everything else is just people stroking their own egos.

[Mr. Fife]

Maybe he should have been Barny Fife, lol. Serendipity!