THE KING Posted March 1, 2019 at 03:24 AM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 03:24 AM Looking for opinions from those that have any experience with the mini red dots for handguns. I have been researching these for about a week now and I am seriously looking at the Vortex Venom. This red dot seems like one of the best for the quality and dollar value. I'm also looking at doing a dovetail mount. The two mounts that have my attention are made by EGW Guns and Outerimpact. This will be put on my Glock 19. I did consider buying another 19 with the MOS but I don't want to spend that money. I want quality at a good price. If anyone has any experience with these, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomKoz Posted March 1, 2019 at 04:19 AM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 04:19 AM · Hidden by Lou, March 1, 2019 at 09:47 PM - Poor taste. Offenseive Hidden by Lou, March 1, 2019 at 09:47 PM - Poor taste. Offenseive They put these on handguns now?? Link to comment
Eli Mcfly Posted March 1, 2019 at 05:48 AM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 05:48 AM · Hidden by Lou, March 1, 2019 at 09:48 PM - No reason given Hidden by Lou, March 1, 2019 at 09:48 PM - No reason given They put these on handguns now??49690ADC-31CB-4768-B77E-8C9FFFC8C59B.pngLOL! You must be living under a rock. Link to comment
2A4Cook Posted March 1, 2019 at 11:15 AM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 11:15 AM I've had 2 RMR equipped M&P's, 2 Romeo 1 equipped Sig P320's and a Burris Fastfire on a S&W 327 TRR8. I found the RMR's difficult to pick up quickly. The Sigs were great in every way. Small size, bigger window, motion detection. If I were to have a MRS put on one of my CZs, I would go with a (Doctor) Shield MRS or Romeo 1. The Shield is most compatible mount-wise. If you're going to carry it, you'll want a slide cut for an MRS mount, which is fairly cheap for a Glock. Even a dovetail mount would place the sight rather high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ming Posted March 1, 2019 at 11:48 AM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 11:48 AM I have two Glocks equipped with a Trijicon RMR, a G17 and a G19 (slides milled for dot). I'm not carrying either yet but may start with the G19 soon but now both are range guns. There's a learning curve with a red dot and I'm still faster (draw to shot time) with regular iron sights at close-in distances. Practice should help increase my speed since competitive shooters are lightning fast with a dot equipped gun. At longer distances the dot is hard to beat IMO especially for older guys like me whose eyes are not what they once were. Just as an experiment I've been shooting the G17 with the front suppressor sight removed and I'm impressed with the results. You just put the dot where you want to hit and it gets done provided your fundamentals are sound. Your focus is on the target and not on trying to line up the front sight in the rear sight notch, a much easier process. When my buddy shoots my gun he says it's like "cheating" which is fine with me. I know red dot sights are not cheap but if you can afford it I'd recommend purchasing one if for no other reason then that they're fun to shoot. I think we'll be seeing more and more dot equipped pistols in the future. I can remember when you rarely saw optic equipped AR's. Now it's rare to see one without a dot. Might be similar with handguns at some point. I'm only familiar with the Trijicon RMR (which I like) so I'll leave recommendations to others who are more knowledgeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpd046 Posted March 1, 2019 at 03:11 PM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 03:11 PM I tried them late last year, and went back to irons. I put about 3,000 rounds through a Trijicon RMR on a VP9 before ditching the idea. I think they are the future for all pistols, but their are some nuances that are different than when shooting irons. I didn't have the time or inclination to relearn some techniques. I found that just running a red dot without a front sight caused me to "fish around" for the dot on full extension of my draw. I couldn't find an answer that worked for me whether I presented the gun muzzle high or pushed the gun out straight to the target. I could catch the dot on some of my presentations and would miss the dot on others. I found that running a suppressor height front sight allowed me to drive the front sight to the target and at about 3/4 through my presentation the dot would appear and all it took was a focal shift from the sight to the dot and I was good to go. I do a "muzzle high" presentation with my draw stroke, I don't know if those running a "muzzle straight to the target" presentation find the same results with the sights and dot. Red Dots on pistols are incredible with the ability to call your shot during the firing sequence. If you see that dot move low left during your trigger pull you; know that is exactly where the round went. I think this is one of the areas that red dots really shine. The ability to quickly followup on a shot you were able to call as a miss or as a sub optimal hit.I didn't want to have my slide cut so I used a dovetail mount for the RMR. I tried 2 different models (1 from HKParts and 1 from Trijicon) the Trijicon mount was much better and it allowed a really solid mounting solution. Red dots are easier for older eyes. Your only dealing with one focal plane unlike irons. One of the problems some red dots have is controlling the brightness of the dot. There are some models that self regulate and others that the user has to turn the brightness up or down. When I zero the pistol I like to turn the brightness way down, during normal daylight conditions I really like the brightness high. During lowlight conditions I like to have it way down, but when you turn on a high lumen flashlight you need the dot brightness ramped way up. This can be an issue on a carry or duty gun. Depending on the model of pistol, holster selection that can accommodate an RDS can be feast or famine.I don't think RDS's are as robust as they need to be for serious carry or duty purposes, yet.....but they are getting better and better. They get battered each time the gun is shot and they do have a life cycle much shorter than those on rifles. My plan was to compete with a red dot this year and in order to do that I was going to need 2 RMR's. One on the gun to use, and one sitting in the safe until I needed it while the first one was back at Trijicon for warranty work. This isn't really germane to the topic, but I think weather can be an issue specifically rain. I applied some anti fogging stuff I use called "Cat Crap" on my RMR but never ran it through it's paces during rain. I also wonder about being outside an extended period of time and coming into a warm building. How much fogging of the optic would occur? There are some dudes in Northern Illinois really pushing the envelope with running red dots on pistols. It's gonna be interesting to see what they come up with.I think RDS are the wave of the future. I think they are a great solution for the average cop who only shoots 60 rounds a year, for new shooters who are brought up shooting red dots from the very beginning, for those willing to spend the time and ammo learning the differences, and those with old and aging eyes. I think the depth of knowledge is going to really get deep the more guys play with these and as companies improve the product. This is kind of wordy, hope it helps. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted March 1, 2019 at 03:26 PM Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 03:26 PM Great responses so far. Thanks At 60, I have the old eyes problem also. I really liked the Shield RMS that was recommended but the cost seems a little too high and I'm not sure about the automatic brightness adjustment. I think I would like to control the brightness myself. Dimensionally it's perfect. Especially for an M&P Shield 9mm which my wife has. Now do I go with a dovetail mount or do I mill the slides. I know a dovetail mount sits .200" higher but is that too high? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikew Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:13 PM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:13 PM They put these on handguns now?? 49690ADC-31CB-4768-B77E-8C9FFFC8C59B.pngHaha I see what you did there. :-( Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.I think she looks good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:29 PM Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:29 PM So, the more research I do, the more options I find. Has anyone looked at the "Lone Wolf slide melt". It seems like the best option right now. They even sell the red dot sights at a good price. https://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=919463 Let me know what you guys think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:30 PM Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:30 PM https://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=156471 Sorry,try this link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikew Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:32 PM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:32 PM I have a couple of el cheapo small open frame red dot reflex sights like the venom. I like them, and they're not on a handgun, I use them on rifles: 22LR and 357 mag Lever-action. I offer the following observations, and YMMV.1. I am color blind. Red does not show up so well unless I can make it bright. Having manual brightness, or manual in addition to auto, is a plus. 2. a green dot might appear brighter, but there is a trade-off when you get a sight that offers a color other than red, even if it's in addition to red.The trade-off: The red-only sight usually has a red-only semi-mirrored surface. This causes a very slight reduction in image brightness.A sight that offers any other color, such as green, red/green, red/green/blue has a neutral semi-mirrored surface that cuts all colors, causing a more noticeable reduction in image brightness. 3. The venom uses a smaller battery than you normally see for lithium coin battery. (1632 vs 2032) This would not affect my purchasing decision, but it would affect whether I decided to keep some spare batteries on hand.You probably won't find the 1632 in the checkout lane at Wally World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DD123 Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:35 PM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:35 PM I recently threw a Vortex Viper on my 5.25 9mm XDM. I've had that gun laying around for 2 years after upgrading to a different competition pistol. I haven't really messed with it a whole lot, but what I noticed is that how easy it is to use is entirely based on how you shoot. What I mean is that when people throw the gun up, some folks use their head to move towards the sights wherever the gun stopped as part of their draw stroke. Most practiced shooters throw the gun and sights up to their eyes. One is consistent, the other is not. This is what causes issues with people using red dots. If you move your head to the gun, you'll have a bad experience with a red dot on the pistol because you'll never draw the gun up to the same spot every time. If you throw the sights up to your eye, then it makes it easier to adapt to the red dot, because you stop the gun short of where you'd normally draw the gun up to. I throw the gun up to my eye, with my head in a consistent position. So the biggest change for me is practicing my draw to stop a bit lower than I would with iron sights. If folks on here aren't sure if they're moving their head towards their iron sights, set up a video camera to your left or right, then start practicing draws. After 5 minutes of that, watch the video. Try this while you're living firing too. If you notice that your head moves to align with your iron sights, start focusing on changing that. That leads to inconsistency. Hopefully this makes sense....I'm typing this while on a conference call lol. ETA: one of the other things about throwing the sights up to your eye is that your eye is focused on the target, and you're throwing the iron sights to get in between. So more or less while your eye is on the target, the red dot will appear much like your iron sights do. The trick is practicing so that you're not drawing the gun up as high as you used to, because that'll help position the red dot so that you see it come up in between your eye and the target. One other thing that helps is having a repeatable point of aim. If you draw your gun, and throw it up to your eye, you shouldn't have to fix the alignment of your sights. If you can get it to be repeatable, with minor adjustment, the red dot will be super easy to use. I got the hang of it doing about 5 minutes of draws. It's not ingrained yet, but I haven't practiced it at all. I'll focus on that closer to the fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikew Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:39 PM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:39 PM https://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=156471 Sorry,try this link.Nice, especially the ability to retain a traditional rear sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:43 PM Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:43 PM I recently threw a Vortex Viper on my 5.25 9mm XDM. I've had that gun laying around for 2 years after upgrading to a different competition pistol. I haven't really messed with it a whole lot, but what I noticed is that how easy it is to use is entirely based on how you shoot. What I mean is that when people throw the gun up, some folks use their head to move towards the sights wherever the gun stopped as part of their draw stroke. Most practiced shooters throw the gun and sights up to their eyes. One is consistent, the other is not. This is what causes issues with people using red dots. If you move your head to the gun, you'll have a bad experience with a red dot on the pistol because you'll never draw the gun up to the same spot every time. If you throw the sights up to your eye, then it makes it easier to adapt to the red dot, because you stop the gun short of where you'd normally draw the gun up to. I throw the gun up to my eye, with my head in a consistent position. So the biggest change for me is practicing my draw to stop a bit lower than I would with iron sights. If folks on here aren't sure if they're moving their head towards their iron sights, set up a video camera to your left or right, then start practicing draws. After 5 minutes of that, watch the video. Try this while you're living firing too. If you notice that your head moves to align with your iron sights, start focusing on changing that. That leads to inconsistency. Hopefully this makes sense....I'm typing this while on a conference call lol. Nice job multi tasking. I understand exactly what you're saying about bringing the gun up to your line of sight versus dropping your head down. I bring the gun up and that's how I teach my students. I think for me and the wife, red dots will work well. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DD123 Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:51 PM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 06:51 PM I recently threw a Vortex Viper on my 5.25 9mm XDM. I've had that gun laying around for 2 years after upgrading to a different competition pistol. I haven't really messed with it a whole lot, but what I noticed is that how easy it is to use is entirely based on how you shoot. What I mean is that when people throw the gun up, some folks use their head to move towards the sights wherever the gun stopped as part of their draw stroke. Most practiced shooters throw the gun and sights up to their eyes. One is consistent, the other is not. This is what causes issues with people using red dots. If you move your head to the gun, you'll have a bad experience with a red dot on the pistol because you'll never draw the gun up to the same spot every time. If you throw the sights up to your eye, then it makes it easier to adapt to the red dot, because you stop the gun short of where you'd normally draw the gun up to. I throw the gun up to my eye, with my head in a consistent position. So the biggest change for me is practicing my draw to stop a bit lower than I would with iron sights. If folks on here aren't sure if they're moving their head towards their iron sights, set up a video camera to your left or right, then start practicing draws. After 5 minutes of that, watch the video. Try this while you're living firing too. If you notice that your head moves to align with your iron sights, start focusing on changing that. That leads to inconsistency. Hopefully this makes sense....I'm typing this while on a conference call lol. Nice job multi tasking. I understand exactly what you're saying about bringing the gun up to your line of sight versus dropping your head down. I bring the gun up and that's how I teach my students. I think for me and the wife, red dots will work well. Thanks No problem! Here’s what mine looks like after I installed it. It looks off, but that’s immediately after installing it and the position of the camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRJ Posted March 1, 2019 at 07:00 PM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 07:00 PM Looking for opinions from those that have any experience with the mini red dots for handguns. I have been researching these for about a week now and I am seriously looking at the Vortex Venom. This red dot seems like one of the best for the quality and dollar value. I'm also looking at doing a dovetail mount. The two mounts that have my attention are made by EGW Guns and Outerimpact. This will be put on my Glock 19. I did consider buying another 19 with the MOS but I don't want to spend that money. I want quality at a good price. If anyone has any experience with these, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts.If I had known you were red dot curious I would have pulled the Sig P320 RS out of my bag last year at Trigger Farm. I had brought a few extras to cover things if guns went down for the girls. It's too darn cold to shoot right now, but once it warms up maybe we can get the crew together for an ASC day, guest passes on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted March 1, 2019 at 07:01 PM Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 07:01 PM Is that a dovetail mount? It looks tall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DD123 Posted March 1, 2019 at 07:04 PM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 07:04 PM Is that a dovetail mount? It looks tall.It's not a machined into the slide mount, similar to the MOS. The 5.25 XDM's rear sight doesn't have a rear dovetail, so the mount rides on the slide. A bit taller, but it won't affect much other than stopping the height of your draw a bit shorter, and it slightly has an effect on offsets on targets up close. ETA: I was in the same boat as you....I didn't want to spend more money on a new gun. I already had my XDM that hadn't been shot in 2 years, so rather than it being a safe queen, I wanted to get some additional use out of it shooting Carry Optics in USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted March 1, 2019 at 07:05 PM Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 07:05 PM Looking for opinions from those that have any experience with the mini red dots for handguns.I have been researching these for about a week now and I am seriously looking at the Vortex Venom. This red dot seems like one of the best for the quality and dollar value.I'm also looking at doing a dovetail mount. The two mounts that have my attention are made by EGW Guns and Outerimpact.This will be put on my Glock 19. I did consider buying another 19 with the MOS but I don't want to spend that money.I want quality at a good price. If anyone has any experience with these, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts. If I had known you were red dot curious I would have pulled the Sig P320 RS out of my bag last year at Trigger Farm. I had brought a few extras to cover things if guns went down for the girls. It's too darn cold to shoot right now, but once it warms up maybe we can get the crew together for an ASC day, guest passes on me.That would have been great. I'd be up for a day at the range when it warms up. Could be a nice bike ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DD123 Posted March 1, 2019 at 07:06 PM Share Posted March 1, 2019 at 07:06 PM Looking for opinions from those that have any experience with the mini red dots for handguns. I have been researching these for about a week now and I am seriously looking at the Vortex Venom. This red dot seems like one of the best for the quality and dollar value. I'm also looking at doing a dovetail mount. The two mounts that have my attention are made by EGW Guns and Outerimpact. This will be put on my Glock 19. I did consider buying another 19 with the MOS but I don't want to spend that money. I want quality at a good price. If anyone has any experience with these, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts.If I had known you were red dot curious I would have pulled the Sig P320 RS out of my bag last year at Trigger Farm. I had brought a few extras to cover things if guns went down for the girls. It's too darn cold to shoot right now, but once it warms up maybe we can get the crew together for an ASC day, guest passes on me. I'm actually going out there tomorrow for a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2A4Cook Posted March 2, 2019 at 02:58 AM Share Posted March 2, 2019 at 02:58 AM I've had holsters made for all 5 handguns I had with RDS', including the 5" S&W revolver. It is MUCH easier to order proper holsters for an RDS mounted on a milled slide, especially if you want a holster that includes a hood for the RDS to both protect it and to keep it from accidentally getting a button pressed. The higher sight is also far more likely to dig the wrong way, print, etc. I strongly considered getting a rear dovetail mount for my high polish stainless CZ 75B, but decided against it for precisely that reason. OP, I think you'll be very happy if you have your slide milled, or buy a commercial, premilled slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon! Posted March 2, 2019 at 03:40 PM Share Posted March 2, 2019 at 03:40 PM I’ve really enjoyed “red dots” on pistols. It takes a little getting used to but a milled slide with suppressor sights to cowitness the dot definitely helps. My brother actually mills out slides for red dots. He does really great looking slide cuts like different serrations and window cuts. His company is 76 Armament https://76armament.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted March 2, 2019 at 04:05 PM Author Share Posted March 2, 2019 at 04:05 PM I’ve really enjoyed “red dots” on pistols. It takes a little getting used to but a milled slide with suppressor sights to cowitness the dot definitely helps. My brother actually mills out slides for red dots. He does really great looking slide cuts like different serrations and window cuts. His company is 76 Armament https://76armament.com/Checked out his website. Looks like some nice work. Unfortunately he doesn't take in OEM slides from the customer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itscold Posted March 31, 2019 at 11:56 PM Share Posted March 31, 2019 at 11:56 PM Check out the for sale listings, there is Glock setup on there now you might like. http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=71659 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagloo Posted April 1, 2019 at 01:37 PM Share Posted April 1, 2019 at 01:37 PM Looking for opinions from those that have any experience with the mini red dots for handguns. I have been researching these for about a week now and I am seriously looking at the Vortex Venom. This red dot seems like one of the best for the quality and dollar value. I'm also looking at doing a dovetail mount. The two mounts that have my attention are made by EGW Guns and Outerimpact. This will be put on my Glock 19. I did consider buying another 19 with the MOS but I don't want to spend that money. I want quality at a good price. If anyone has any experience with these, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts.If I had known you were red dot curious I would have pulled the Sig P320 RS out of my bag last year at Trigger Farm. I had brought a few extras to cover things if guns went down for the girls. It's too darn cold to shoot right now, but once it warms up maybe we can get the crew together for an ASC day, guest passes on me. I'm actually going out there tomorrow for a bit. Hey DD123 - Is that the 5.25 XDM Competition? If so, can you share some detail on the parts here? I've been looking for replacement sights for my .45 for years and I have yet to find anything so far in the aftermarket that will bolt on. I actually gave up a few years ago, so naturally your post caught my eye. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted April 1, 2019 at 02:42 PM Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 at 02:42 PM Check out the for sale listings, there is Glock setup on there now you might like.http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=71659I did see that, thanks. I really really don't need another Glock. I bought a Vortex Venom and installed it with an EGW Dove tail mount. Once I get it sighted in and start using it, I'll decide if I want to have the slide milled or not. Still keeping my options open for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DD123 Posted April 1, 2019 at 04:00 PM Share Posted April 1, 2019 at 04:00 PM Looking for opinions from those that have any experience with the mini red dots for handguns. I have been researching these for about a week now and I am seriously looking at the Vortex Venom. This red dot seems like one of the best for the quality and dollar value. I'm also looking at doing a dovetail mount. The two mounts that have my attention are made by EGW Guns and Outerimpact. This will be put on my Glock 19. I did consider buying another 19 with the MOS but I don't want to spend that money. I want quality at a good price. If anyone has any experience with these, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts. If I had known you were red dot curious I would have pulled the Sig P320 RS out of my bag last year at Trigger Farm. I had brought a few extras to cover things if guns went down for the girls. It's too darn cold to shoot right now, but once it warms up maybe we can get the crew together for an ASC day, guest passes on me. I'm actually going out there tomorrow for a bit. Hey DD123 - Is that the 5.25 XDM Competition? If so, can you share some detail on the parts here? I've been looking for replacement sights for my .45 for years and I have yet to find anything so far in the aftermarket that will bolt on. I actually gave up a few years ago, so naturally your post caught my eye. Thanks! Yep it’s the 5.25 competition. I believe I got the mount from Springer Precision. You basically unscrew the rear sight and install the mount, then mount the red dot. You just have to make sure you know which red dot you’re using because the mounts are different from what I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmagloo Posted April 2, 2019 at 01:54 AM Share Posted April 2, 2019 at 01:54 AM Hey DD123 - Is that the 5.25 XDM Competition? If so, can you share some detail on the parts here? I've been looking for replacement sights for my .45 for years and I have yet to find anything so far in the aftermarket that will bolt on. I actually gave up a few years ago, so naturally your post caught my eye. Thanks!Yep it’s the 5.25 competition. I believe I got the mount from Springer Precision. You basically unscrew the rear sight and install the mount, then mount the red dot. You just have to make sure you know which red dot you’re using because the mounts are different from what I recall.Thanks bud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vern Posted April 2, 2019 at 07:02 PM Share Posted April 2, 2019 at 07:02 PM I have a trijicon on a glock 34. Stupid accurate but not used it enough to make it faster than irons yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korgs130 Posted April 2, 2019 at 10:29 PM Share Posted April 2, 2019 at 10:29 PM I have had a Trijicon RMR in my G19 Gen 4 for a little over 2 years. Itâs mounted with a Dueck Defense RBU that uses the dove tail, so no modification to the pistol is required. Super easy to install. It takes some practice, but the RDS on a pistol is the future. I added a G19X with RMR last year and am planning to add an RMR to my G43 in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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