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Clairification on Illinois Conceal Carry laws "A licensee shall possess a license"


j28791

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It's not clear to me in this section what they mean by "possess" and why they didn't go further to clarify that by "possess" they mean "possess on his/her person". See the law below

 

(g) A licensee shall possess a license at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:

(1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission;

(2) when the person is authorized to carry a firearm under Section 24-2 of the Criminal Code of 2012, except subsection (a-5) of that Section;  or

(3) when the handgun is broken down in a non-functioning state, is not immediately accessible, or is unloaded and enclosed in a case.

 

The red part and bold is from me.

 

To me the way this is worded is ambiguous. It should be clear and state it like the following:

 

(g) A licensee shall possess a license on his or her person at all times the licensee carries a concealed firearm except:

(1) when the licensee is carrying or possessing a concealed firearm on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission;

 

Is anyone here a lawyer? I think I know what they mean but it's really not clear enough for law in my opinion.

 

 

Illinois Statutes Chapter 430. Public Safety § 66/10. Issuance of licenses to carry a concealed firearm

 

https://codes.findlaw.com/il/chapter-430-public-safety/il-st-sect-430-66-10.html

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Interesting observation...

I live in townhouse....

When I'm washing the car in 'my' driveway...sometimes stepping off onto some 'common ground'...do I have to have license on me?

As a rule, I've had my wallet/license on me when carrying...

Were I ever to be questioned outside my home..and didnt have my wallet on me..I'd just 'point' and say...its 'there'...

If I were to end up in such a situation and didnt have my license on me outside a townhouse...would I be taking a ride?

Hmmmmmm...

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It's not clear to me in this section what they mean by "possess" and why they didn't go further to clarify that by "possess" they mean "possess on his/her person"....

"Possess" means to have on or about your person. "Possess on your person" would be redundant.

 

Interesting observation...

I live in townhouse....

When I'm washing the car in 'my' driveway...sometimes stepping off onto some 'common ground'...do I have to have license on me? ...

Yes, and since you describe your driveway as "your" driveway, even there, too, unless the title to your property includes the driveway. Whether a cop arrests you for having the license inside the building when you're outside depends on the cop, I think. Did he have a bad day? Is he looking to spread it around? How much does he love to do paperwork? Do you have a history of pissing him off?

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When questioned by law enforcement you are also likely to be asked to present some ID? For me that would require having my wallet. I would suspect that most officers would understand that while I was working on the car in the garage, doing yard chores or other messy activity, I would leave the wallet inside the house and the officer would allow me to retrieve it?

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It's not clear to me in this section what they mean by "possess" and why they didn't go further to clarify that by "possess" they mean "possess on his/her person"....

"Possess" means to have on or about your person. "Possess on your person" would be redundant.

 

Interesting observation...

I live in townhouse....

When I'm washing the car in 'my' driveway...sometimes stepping off onto some 'common ground'...do I have to have license on me? ...

Yes, and since you describe your driveway as "your" driveway, even there, too, unless the title to your property includes the driveway. Whether a cop arrests you for having the license inside the building when you're outside depends on the cop, I think. Did he have a bad day? Is he looking to spread it around? How much does he love to do paperwork? Do you have a history of pissing him off?

 

Again, it's ambiguous

 

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/possess?s=t

 

1. to have as belonging to one; have as property; own:
to possess a house and a car.
2.to have as a faculty, quality, or the like:
to possess courage.
3.(of a spirit, especially an evil one) to occupy, dominate, or control (a person) from within:
He thought he was possessed by devils.
4. (of a feeling, idea, etc.) to dominate or actuate in the manner of such a spirit:
He was possessed by envy.
5. (of a man) to succeed in having sexual intercourse with.
6.to have knowledge of:
to possess a language.
7.to keep or maintain (oneself, one's mind, etc.) in a certain state, as of peace, patience, etc.
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Interesting observation...

I live in townhouse....

When I'm washing the car in 'my' driveway...sometimes stepping off onto some 'common ground'...do I have to have license on me?

As a rule, I've had my wallet/license on me when carrying...

Were I ever to be questioned outside my home..and didnt have my wallet on me..I'd just 'point' and say...its 'there'...

If I were to end up in such a situation and didnt have my license on me outside a townhouse...would I be taking a ride?

Hmmmmmm...

 

This is the exact situation I"m concerned about. Or another example is, you park outside a store, leave your wallet in the car and go grab a gallon of milk. Do you need you bring your CCL with you just to walk in the store even though it's reasonably accessible?

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Doesn't really matter if the actual statute is ambiguous or not, as most people aren't going to read it outside of class.

 

For clarification, look at the back of your license.

 

ILLINOIS LAW REQUIRES YOU TO CARRY YOUR CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE AT ALL TIMES WHEN CARRYING A CONCEALED FIREARM

 

It also lists the same 3 exceptions that are in the statute.

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I wonder if the courts might rule possessing a ccl when carrying the same as possessing a driver license when driving. If you forgot it you can present it in court to have the charges dropped.

Surely not. Remember you are comparing a right to a privilege. $$$ Driving is a right and guns are a privilege, or is it the other way around...$$$ Anyway, I doubt you will get any flexibility with gun possession from anyone in Illinois.
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Wasn't there a proposed piece of legislation that would allow for a digital copy?

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Interesting observation...

I live in townhouse....

When I'm washing the car in 'my' driveway...sometimes stepping off onto some 'common ground'...do I have to have license on me?

As a rule, I've had my wallet/license on me when carrying...

Were I ever to be questioned outside my home..and didnt have my wallet on me..I'd just 'point' and say...its 'there'...

If I were to end up in such a situation and didnt have my license on me outside a townhouse...would I be taking a ride?

Hmmmmmm...

 

This is the exact situation I"m concerned about. Or another example is, you park outside a store, leave your wallet in the car and go grab a gallon of milk. Do you need you bring your CCL with you just to walk in the store even though it's reasonably accessible?

 

 

Yes.

Why would you leave your wallet unattended in your car? I've always treated my wallet like I treat my carry gun.

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A lot of this is going to depend on what you were doing to come to the attention of The King's Man and how you interact with him.

 

Contempt of Cop while not a crime will in fact get you more trouble than you need / want.

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Yes.

Why would you leave your wallet unattended in your car? I've always treated my wallet like I treat my carry gun.

Yeah, my wallet is only left in car accidentally if it happens.

 

There is a bill in progress allowing for approval and development of a digital equivalent image/app that you can retain on your cell phone. Not that I think this will happen anytime soon if at all.

 

And fwiw they can see you have a CCL when they run a check on you

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Doesn't really matter if the actual statute is ambiguous or not, as most people aren't going to read it outside of class.

 

For clarification, look at the back of your license.

 

ILLINOIS LAW REQUIRES YOU TO CARRY YOUR CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE AT ALL TIMES WHEN CARRYING A CONCEALED FIREARM

 

It also lists the same 3 exceptions that are in the statute.

To the OP, this should sum it up and answer your question. You need to have your FCCL on you when carrying in public.

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Interesting observation...

I live in townhouse....

When I'm washing the car in 'my' driveway...sometimes stepping off onto some 'common ground'...do I have to have license on me?

As a rule, I've had my wallet/license on me when carrying...

Were I ever to be questioned outside my home..and didnt have my wallet on me..I'd just 'point' and say...its 'there'...

If I were to end up in such a situation and didnt have my license on me outside a townhouse...would I be taking a ride?

Hmmmmmm...

 

This is the exact situation I"m concerned about. Or another example is, you park outside a store, leave your wallet in the car and go grab a gallon of milk. Do you need you bring your CCL with you just to walk in the store even though it's reasonably accessible?

 

Now to address your concern about being in your driveway and not having your FOID.

 

Here is the language from 65/2 of the FOID act which is relevant.

 

(430 ILCS 65/2) (from Ch. 38, par. 83-2)

Sec. 2. Firearm Owner's Identification Card required; exceptions.

(a) (1) No person may acquire or possess any firearm, stun gun, or taser within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act.

(2) No person may acquire or possess firearm ammunition within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act.

(B) The provisions of this Section regarding the possession of firearms, firearm ammunition, stun guns, and tasers do not apply to:

 

(c-5) The provisions of paragraphs (1) and (2) of subsection (a) of this Section regarding the possession of firearms and firearm ammunition do not apply to the holder of a valid concealed carry license issued under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act who is in physical possession of the concealed carry license.

 

 

So, if you are in possession of a firearm or ammunition you must be in possession of your FOID card or your FCCL as stated in the above statute.

 

I also agree to what was said about your interaction with Law enforcement. If you have your wallet in the house, the officer might be good with or he might not. It's your choice to make whether you want to take that chance.

 

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Again, it's ambiguous

 

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/possess?s=t

 

1. to have as belonging to one; have as property; own:
to possess a house and a car.
2.to have as a faculty, quality, or the like:
to possess courage.
3.(of a spirit, especially an evil one) to occupy, dominate, or control (a person) from within:
He thought he was possessed by devils.
4. (of a feeling, idea, etc.) to dominate or actuate in the manner of such a spirit:
He was possessed by envy.
5. (of a man) to succeed in having sexual intercourse with.
6.to have knowledge of:
to possess a language.
7.to keep or maintain (oneself, one's mind, etc.) in a certain state, as of peace, patience, etc.

 

Legal definition of Possession, is not the same as general definition (like in Dictionary) as you have above. You're right the law IS not clear, but not because of the above definition. It is because it should specify the legal term ACTUAL POSSESSION if required to physically be on the carrier, when carrying off of their property. Because, as-is it can be confused with CONSTRUCTIVE POSSESSION, which means you have a valid, active license, but it is at home, or in the car, when you are not, etc.THose two designations, along with CRIMINAL POSSESSION were brought into being, because, legal definition of POSESSION could mean so many things.

 

IANAL, but I can read (which is what the other poster meant I think). https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/possession

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You are required to carry your license when you're carrying your gun. Most likely, if a police officer can positively identify you, he can also determine whether you have a valid license or not...even if you don't produce it for his inspection. However, he still may choose to arrest you and sort it out later. He may not.

Two days ago, I left the house for work and I was carrying (as always). But I forgot my wallet in my coat, which I didn't wear. I didn't realize that I was missing it until I reached the office. I fully expected to catch a giant hassle if I had an interaction with a police officer on the way home. It is what it is.

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Again, it's ambiguous

 

Legal definition of Possession, is not the same as general definition (like in Dictionary) as you have above. You're right the law IS not clear, but not because of the above definition. It is because it should specify the legal term ACTUAL POSSESSION if required to physically be on the carrier, when carrying off of their property. Because, as-is it can be confused with CONSTRUCTIVE POSSESSION, which means you have a valid, active license, but it is at home, or in the car, when you are not, etc.THose two designations, along with CRIMINAL POSSESSION were brought into being, because, legal definition of POSESSION could mean so many things.

 

IANAL, but I can read (which is what the other poster meant I think). https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/possession

 

 

Guys... It's not ambiguous or unclear unless you are an idiot and I'm guessing you guys are not idiots. And that goes for the entire rest of the members here. At least the paying ones!

 

If you have your Illinois CCL, you've taken the class or you are an instructor. It is common knowledge that you must carry your card when you carry your gun no matter the definition of is... just like you must carry your FOID if you are transporting your gun. Obviously an understanding cop will allow you some leeway while Barney Fife will arrest your behind and make it difficult.

 

I keep my card in my wallet with my money and all other important things that fit in it.

My wallet is part of my EDC stuff.

I never leave home without it.

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Guys... It's not ambiguous or unclear unless you are an idiot and I'm guessing you guys are not idiots. And that goes for the entire rest of the members here. At least the paying ones!

 

If you have your Illinois CCL, you've taken the class or you are an instructor. It is common knowledge that you must carry your card when you carry your gun no matter the definition of is... just like you must carry your FOID if you are transporting your gun. Obviously an understanding cop will allow you some leeway while Barney Fife will arrest your behind and make it difficult.

 

I keep my card in my wallet with my money and all other important things that fit in it.

My wallet is part of my EDC stuff.

I never leave home without it.

 

Hmm, maybe you're not quite as bright as you think you are :). You do realize that we may know, as well as been taught, or read the back of our CCL card, that we must have it on our person AND the actual law can be written such that it isn't actually clear in the language (after all Illinois has NEVER written a poorly worded gun control law)?

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Nothing referenced in any of the dictionary quotes above are how possession is defined with respect to the law.

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/possession

According to the definition of possession as it relates to the law, the statute is quite clear. Legally possession deals with both control and intent, and in many instances requires both. I am not a lawyer, but I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

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There is no question here. To "possess" means to have it on you. The same word is used for felons who "Possess" a firearm.

 

With respect to being in your driveway, I would respectfully disagree that unless you own your home, it is not "yours" for the purposes of having a gun on you without the need for a license. It is still your "abode". Furthermore, my argument is that I can carry a concealed firearm on the land of another at their invitation. If renting the property from a landlord does not qualify as being at their "at their invitation" I don't know what is.

 

So I am convinced that a renter can possess a concealed firearm on their rented abode without a license just as a homeowner can. Unless of course you are saying that I have to have my FOID card physically on my person, and not in my wallet on my nightstand, if I am in my basement with my gun....

 

720 ILCS 5/24-1 (a) 10 ...or except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver,

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