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Man accidentally shoots himself during concealed-carry class


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#31 tkroenlein

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 07:42 AM

Drawing and reholstering a loaded handgun isn't an entirely complicated affair.


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#32 chicagoresident

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:14 AM

Drawing and reholstering a loaded handgun isn't an entirely complicated affair.

Yet people screw it up all the time, even "experienced" shooters

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https://youtu.be/p3kJ6SU3ycs

#33 tkroenlein

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:42 AM

Drawing and reholstering a loaded handgun isn't an entirely complicated affair.
Yet people screw it up all the time, even "experienced" shooters
NSFW drops F bomb
https://youtu.be/p3kJ6SU3ycs


Yes they do. Trained or untrained you might say.

#34 chicagoresident

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:57 AM

When gun culture spread to the internet it's created a problem of gun owners pushing other gun owners outside their safety/competency zones.

Unfortunately there are instructors that pass this torch onto impressionable newbies trying to create operators in 16 hours. It actually makes a basic gun class self defeating. They don't have the importance of safety and continual training/education drilled into them.

I mean how many times do we chide people for their choice of carry gun, where/how they carry, and carrying with a round chambered.

If you listen to the internet everyone would be carrying striker fired glock/glock like pistols appendix carry with a round chambered. Throw in aftermarket triggers, questionable quality holsters, and inexperienced shooters and it's a recipe for the Darwin Olympics.

And there are instructors telling new gun owners this same "wisdom".

Luckily almost all gun owners aren't susceptible to this peer pressure and act in a safe responsible manner. And most instructors have no problem saying you don't even have to carry until you feel you are ready. Of course it helps that most good instructors offer followup training classes.

Edited by chicagoresident, 11 February 2018 - 09:01 AM.


#35 Smallbore

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:58 AM

I show a video on drawing from a holster and talk about it but there is no way i will have newbies drawing a loaded gun.
It is enough for them to keep the muzzle down range.
Small steps.

#36 Mr. Fife

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 09:31 AM

The little old lady who carries a double action snubbie in her shopping bag doesn't really need instructions on how to draw from the hip.
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#37 RandyP

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 09:47 AM

I'm reading chicagoresident's posts and nodding in agreement. I have a branch of the family that are Hoosiers. Some of them have had lifetime carry permits for a long time which means they were background checked and their bank check cleared. they do NOT have a gun waiting period beyond how long it takes to process the transaction and walk out the door with it.

 

I thank the gods that Illinois finally was dragged kicking and screaming into accepting the 2nd Amendment's existence though not much more. The State purposely set up a process by which only a percentage of those legally qualified to carry will be able to afford the time and money required to get a permit to carry. I think the Indiana model makes more sense and is fairer to all and their history living under it is proof that the no mandatory training method works.

 

Do I think anyone who carries should practice and train with their carry firearm(s)? Of course they should, along with everyone who owns firearms for home use. But it should not be because of a bogus law.



#38 Redlin

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 10:00 AM

Up until now most students have been coming into classes unarmed.Interested to know what instructors who don't favor drawing from a holster are going to do when renewals come up and you have people carrying already.What are your plans then?

Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.

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#39 NRApistol

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 10:24 AM

I don`t think it's a matter of instructors not favoring drawing from a holster.  It`s not favoring unqualified instructors teaching holster skills.  Pure and simple - Basic Pistol Instructors have no business teaching holster classes using their NRA BP credentials. NRA BP instructors have 16 training, NRA holster certified instructors (PPOTH) have a minimum of 55 hours of training.  Instructors that teach the advanced classes have students come to class armed on a regular basis.  They are trained to safely handle that situation.  Basic Pistol instructors may have problems dealing with armed students at renewal time if they forget the number one NRA safety rule (NO AMMO IN THE CLASSROOM).  If the BP instructor enforces that rule and that all guns stay encased until on the firiing line, there will be no problem.


Edited by NRApistol, 11 February 2018 - 10:39 AM.

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#40 InterestedBystander

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 10:35 AM

The little old lady who carries a double action snubbie in her shopping bag doesn't really need instructions on how to draw from the hip.


But what if her shopping bag is on her hip? ;-0
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#41 Smallbore

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 12:52 PM

Up until now most students have been coming into classes unarmed.Interested to know what instructors who don't favor drawing from a holster are going to do when renewals come up and you have people carrying already.What are your plans then?


At renewal time I suspect the students will have had five years of gun handling.

#42 Frank

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 01:14 PM

Up until now most students have been coming into classes unarmed.Interested to know what instructors who don't favor drawing from a holster are going to do when renewals come up and you have people carrying already.What are your plans then?

 

NO AMMO ALLOWED IN CLASSROOM! 

That's been our policy since long before Illinois started issuing CCLs. For the two hours of classroom training required for IL CCL renewal classes, I do not expect this policy to change.

 

At the range, they will be required to enter the range with an unloaded, cased firearm per range policy.

 

Simple.

 

 

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#43 Mr. Fife

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 01:57 PM

The little old lady who carries a double action snubbie in her shopping bag doesn't really need instructions on how to draw from the hip.But what if her shopping bag is on her hip? ;-0

I had one student whose sole purpose for getting her CCL was so that she can carry her gun in her hollowed out Bible. She even brought it with her to class. She had a pink S&W .38 and that was her concealed carry gun and method.

Since the class required drawing from concealment, I let her practice her way, she was pretty darn good at getting her gun pointed at the target quickly. Pretty darn good and surprising too. Any perp would be a goner. She had no use for a holster or holster skills.

An IL CCW instructor specializing in drawing from a holster skills would have been useless to her. She wasn't going to use a holster, her Bible was her method of concealment. Bless her heart.

I've got to give her credit though. She was a little shaky and I think the gun kicked a bit much for her, but she passed with exactly 21/ 30 shots in the black shooting each one double action. I had my doubts, but she proved me wrong. :)

Edited by Mr. Fife, 11 February 2018 - 02:01 PM.

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#44 InterestedBystander

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 01:57 PM

Up until now most students have been coming into classes unarmed.Interested to know what instructors who don't favor drawing from a holster are going to do when renewals come up and you have people carrying already.What are your plans then?

 
NO AMMO ALLOWED IN CLASSROOM! 
That's been our policy since long before Illinois started issuing CCLs. For the two hours of classroom training required for IL CCL renewal classes, I do not expect this policy to change.
 
At the range, they will be required to enter the range with an unloaded, cased firearm per range policy.
 
Simple.
 
 
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Ditto.
It was a no ammo rule in the original class I took and would expect it to be the same for classroom portion of renewal whether same instructor or not.
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#45 Redlin

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 02:31 PM

 

 

Up until now most students have been coming into classes unarmed.Interested to know what instructors who don't favor drawing from a holster are going to do when renewals come up and you have people carrying already.What are your plans then?

 
NO AMMO ALLOWED IN CLASSROOM! 
That's been our policy since long before Illinois started issuing CCLs. For the two hours of classroom training required for IL CCL renewal classes, I do not expect this policy to change.
 
At the range, they will be required to enter the range with an unloaded, cased firearm per range policy.
 
Simple.
 
 
-- Frank
Ditto.
It was a no ammo rule in the original class I took and would expect it to be the same for classroom portion of renewal whether same instructor or not.

 

Going to put a GFZ sign on the door?Seriously,not trying to be difficult,but it just reminds me of the stuff we've been against since concealed carry was enacted.Unless you're going to have students drawing their weapons in the classroom,I don't get the big deal of having people sitting around with holstered weapons,just like we've been doing in public for the past 5 yrs. now.


Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.

Thomas Paine


#46 InterestedBystander

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 03:58 PM

[quote name="Redlin" post="1128664" timestamp="1518381116"][quote name="InterestedBystander" post="1128659" timestamp="1518379061"]
[quote name="Frank" post="1128652" timestamp="1518376472"]
[quote name="Redlin" post="1128629" timestamp="1518364815"]
Up until now most students have been coming into classes unarmed.Interested to know what instructors who don't favor drawing from a holster are going to do when renewals come up and you have people carrying already.What are your plans then?
[/quote]
 
NO AMMO ALLOWED IN CLASSROOM! 
That's been our policy since long before Illinois started issuing CCLs. For the two hours of classroom training required for IL CCL renewal classes, I do not expect this policy to change.
 
At the range, they will be required to enter the range with an unloaded, cased firearm per range policy.
 
Simple.
 
 
-- Frank[/quote]
Ditto.
It was a no ammo rule in the original class I took and would expect it to be the same for classroom portion of renewal whether same instructor or not.
[/quote]
Going to put a GFZ sign on the door?Seriously,not trying to be difficult,but it just reminds me of the stuff we've been against since concealed carry was enacted.Unless you're going to have students drawing their weapons in the classroom,I don't get the big deal of having people sitting around with holstered weapons,just like we've been doing in public for the past 5 yrs. now.[/quote]
While I understand your perspective, if I were an instructor, I guess I would see it as a safety factor. I've got a group of unknown people with unknown skill sets with unknown common sense levels...

Edited by InterestedBystander, 11 February 2018 - 03:59 PM.

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#47 Frank

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 06:40 PM

Going to put a GFZ sign on the door?Seriously,not trying to be difficult,but it just reminds me of the stuff we've been against since concealed carry was enacted.Unless you're going to have students drawing their weapons in the classroom,I don't get the big deal of having people sitting around with holstered weapons,just like we've been doing in public for the past 5 yrs. now.

 

I didn't say no firearms in the classroom, I said no ammo. And since the safety of everyone in that room is my responsibility, I am going to follow our established safety rules. Didn't this thread get started because someone did something unsafe and ended up with an extra hole in their leg? When it comes to firearms training, I am not going to compromise on safety, especially in the classroom.

 

 

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#48 Redlin

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 07:42 PM

 

Going to put a GFZ sign on the door?Seriously,not trying to be difficult,but it just reminds me of the stuff we've been against since concealed carry was enacted.Unless you're going to have students drawing their weapons in the classroom,I don't get the big deal of having people sitting around with holstered weapons,just like we've been doing in public for the past 5 yrs. now.

 

I didn't say no firearms in the classroom, I said no ammo. And since the safety of everyone in that room is my responsibility, I am going to follow our established safety rules. Didn't this thread get started because someone did something unsafe and ended up with an extra hole in their leg? When it comes to firearms training, I am not going to compromise on safety, especially in the classroom.

 

 

-- Frank

 

Yes this thread was stared by a man drawing in class.Whether it was in the class or at the range qualification seems unclear.Although the one article stated it was after he had to load it.Why he would draw it in class, if that was the case ,I don't know.

 

My original intent was to ask about drawing ones loaded carry piece from the holster for range qualification.I didn't even consider sitting in class at the time.Indoor ranges deal with this every day ,usually with a sign to leave weapons holstered at all times except when on a lane to shoot.I really just figured/hoped that mindset would be prevalent with instructors too.If all instructors share the same rules I will have no choice but to follow these rules if I want to renew, I guess.Just as I have followed the laws set forth in the FCCA that don't trust law abiding, competent people to carry where it is prohibited.It just seems like another slap in the face is all.If I can carry a firearm but not loaded,I might as well have a rock.


Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.

Thomas Paine


#49 Frank

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:34 PM

Every NRA Instructor curriculum I've ever looked at prohibits live ammunition in the classroom. It's not a matter of trusting law-abiding citizens. You wouldn't even be in the class if you weren't a law-abiding citizen. This is about the safety of every person in the room.

 

Safety procedures are not meant to be insulting, or a "slap in the face." They are meant to keep people safe. I'm sorry I have to say this, but often safety rules are written for the lowest common denominator. Not everyone in that classroom is as competent in their gun-handling skills as you are. It only takes a momentary lapse of judgement for a grave mistake to ruin your day. Even the best trained, most safety conscious people can have a brain-fart resulting in a Negligent Discharge. 

 

 

-- Frank


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#50 WitchDoctor

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:39 PM

Frank said:

"

I didn't say no firearms in the classroom, I said no ammo. And since the safety of everyone in that room is my responsibility, I am going to follow our established safety rules. Didn't this thread get started because someone did something unsafe and ended up with an extra hole in their leg? When it comes to firearms training, I am not going to compromise on safety, especially in the classroom.

-Frankj

 

I absolutely agree and respect your thoughts on this. It is your license and reputation as an i9nstructor to maintain a safe environment in the classroom and on the range. There exist a broad spectrum of people in the CCL class, you must go with the least common denominator here, someone that has no experience with firearms and is looking to learn, Safely.


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#51 gangrel

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:07 AM


 

 

Up until now most students have been coming into classes unarmed.Interested to know what instructors who don't favor drawing from a holster are going to do when renewals come up and you have people carrying already.What are your plans then?

 
NO AMMO ALLOWED IN CLASSROOM! 
That's been our policy since long before Illinois started issuing CCLs. For the two hours of classroom training required for IL CCL renewal classes, I do not expect this policy to change.
 
At the range, they will be required to enter the range with an unloaded, cased firearm per range policy.
 
Simple.
 
 
-- Frank
Ditto.
It was a no ammo rule in the original class I took and would expect it to be the same for classroom portion of renewal whether same instructor or not.
 


Going to put a GFZ sign on the door?Seriously,not trying to be difficult,but it just reminds me of the stuff we've been against since concealed carry was enacted.Unless you're going to have students drawing their weapons in the classroom,I don't get the big deal of having people sitting around with holstered weapons,just like we've been doing in public for the past 5 yrs. now.

This is SOP for any NRA course. I am sorry if you see this as an affront akin to posting a 4X6 gunbuster sign at the door, but it is indeed a BASIC, FUNDAMENTAL safety precaution for any firearms course. Many instructors do indeed encourage students to bring their unloaded, cased firearms to the classroom, and teach students firearms handling in the classroom with their own pistol. This can be done quite safely through inspecting all firearms and bags to ensure no live ammo is brought into the classroom, using chamber blockers, establishing and enforcing a safe direction, closely supervising every student during such exercises, and having RSOs or assistant instructors supervise all students not participating on the exercise.

For many instructors, classroom time is by the day, but range time is a precious resource. In such cases, it is a necessity to cover safe firearm handling in the classroom. Doing so with the stydents' own guns allows the instructor to familiarize the students with their own equipment. Not barring live ammo in the classroom and inspecting bags to ensure this rule is adhered to is a recipe for disaster.

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#52 Redlin

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:38 AM

 

Many instructors do indeed encourage students to bring their unloaded, cased firearms to the classroom, and teach students firearms handling in the classroom with their own pistol. This can be done quite safely through inspecting all firearms and bags to ensure no live ammo is brought into the classroom, using chamber blockers, establishing and enforcing a safe direction, closely supervising every student during such exercises, and having RSOs or assistant instructors supervise all students not participating on the exercise.

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I understand that. That is what my original class was like,and after watching how some people handled even unloaded firearms is completely understandable.Instructors should be given credit for having to deal with some peoples carelessness, while having to keep an eye on everybody. I was addressing the renewal class.I was maybe incorrectly under the assumption that the 3hr. or so course would just include classroom time reviewing laws and any other changes to the act ,followed by range qualification.If there is going to be hands on weapon handling in the classroom of course the no ammo in class I agree with.It was just if we weren't going to handle our firearms in classroom,and they were going to remain holstered, the no loaded carry weapons seemed restrictive to me. I am in no way trying to undermine the safety of all involved. 


Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.

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#53 ILgunguy

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:54 AM

In our ccw class we did trigger time and holster work with SIRT PISTOLS. I usually try anything I haven't trained on before with a SITRT until I feel comfortable and then move to an unloaded firearm.

We did SIRT pistols and talked about appropriate concealment to minimize printing and accidental exposure.  Drawing from concealment was done with SIRT, no live ammunition.  All live fire was done on the range without holster drills. 

 

I have taken the NRA Home and Personal protection classes, but there was no holster drills there.  Took some private tactical pistol and defensive tactics classes that taught drawing from the holster with live ammunition, but that was for more advanced people -- certainly not people getting their permits for the first time. 

 

Sit in any CCL class and I am sure you have seen that there is a wide variety of people -- from those who are advanced to those who are asking the instructor the different between a revolver and a smei-auto.


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#54 Helpdesk9

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:05 PM

I don't know when it changed, but drawing a firearm from a holster was required by ISP to be part of any approved curriculum when they first approved instructors and curriculums. I think CLIC still includes it. But somewhere along the line, I think ISP dropped this requirement.   -- FrankI think you`re wrong on this one.  Danbrew hit the nail on the head.  Holster work should be taught by certified holster instructors ONLY.  What is a "certified holster instructor?" If you mean PPOH or security/law enforcement instructor, I understand what you mean. There was quite the heated discussion about this four and a half years ago when these requirements came out. I think this is probably why ISP eventually dropped the requirement.   -- Frank I looked up my instructor's info on the IDFPR site and his active license description is "ORIGINAL FIREARMS TRAINING". Is that an FCCL approved trainer description or something else?
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#55 Smallbore

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 08:29 AM

This thread got me thinking how I will handle the ccl renewal class.
I see no reason to not allow concealed carry. I will probably encourage it. There will not be any gun handling in the classroom. This will allow me to observe how the renewal students handle themselves both in a classroom as well as on the range when moving to live fire.
I waited too long for cc to then do a turnabout by hanging a "criminal protection zone" sign.
If i do not trust these students then i have crossed over to the dark side.

#56 NRApistol

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:45 AM

Handling holstered handguns requires special attention.  An instructor`s very first duty is safety.  I train a lot of armed police officers.  They understand the importance of controlling ammo during live fire exercises.  NO ONE comes to the firing line with a loaded gun.  If you must use holsters the proper method is:  Firearms stay in a case until you are at the firing line,  a RSO verifies the pistol is NOT loaded.  You point the gun down range, drop the slide and pull the trigger to double verify the gun is empty.  Then the gun goes in the holster and is not touched or removed from the holster until you return to the firing line and are instructed to load.  For safety sake the instructor must keep track of all loaded firearms at all times.  Letting a You Tube trained tactical expert carry a loaded firearm away from the firing line begs for trouble.  I`ve seen too many of these "experts" try to teach while I am.  CC renewal should be done on a cold range.


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#57 Quiet Observer

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 11:38 AM

I appreciate the points of view, just above, of Smallbore and NRApistol.  

 

There is redundancy is gun safety rules and even more so in organized training.  Regardless of what rules exist, at times there are those who forgot or refuse to follow them.  

Many comments here are about holster practice, but the article does not say that it was during a holster practice drill.  It is certainly possible.  

 

The major cause was that the shooter had his finger on the trigger before he was on target.  

Many people still put their on the trigger when picking up a gun. When grabbing or picking up an object, it is natural to grasp with all 4 fingers and thumb. 

In the case of a gun, the index finger naturally goes to the trigger.  A little twitch - and bang.

The trigger is located to take advantage of the most efficient use of the index finger.  

 

I assume that the instructor had already gone over gun safety rules in the class, maybe several times.  

But old habits are hard to break.



#58 soundguy

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 06:42 PM

A more detailed version of the story:
 

 

NORMAL — A man was injured Thursday morning after he accidentally shot himself while participating in a concealed-carry class at C.I. Shooting Sports in Normal.

“It was an accidental discharge,” said C.I. Shooting Sports owner Stephen Stewart. “He was participating in a conceal-carry course and by state law, you are required to draw the weapon out of a holster. He just got on the range, loaded it and it was an accident.”

The man, who has not been identified, was transported to a local hospital with a non-life-threatening wound to his thigh.

“I am going to go see him,” Stewart said Thursday afternoon. “The wound itself appeared to be not overly serious. It was a small caliber and of course, a larger caliber might have done more damage.”

The man was using a .22 caliber pistol at the range at 700 Wylie Drive in Normal. The business remained open after the incident, reported at about 9:30 a.m. Stewart said it was the first time someone had been injured at the business.

“Our staff followed the plan we have in place,” Stewart said. “Within a few seconds, he was receiving medical care and law enforcement and the ambulance arrived very quickly. I am very proud of our staff in the way they handled the situation because everybody did the right thing. But, that is why we have those measures in place and why we work on them.”

 

 

 

Keep those fingers off the trigger.


Edited by soundguy, 13 February 2018 - 06:43 PM.

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#59 chicagoresident

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 07:54 PM

It was an accidental discharge, said C.I. Shooting Sports owner Stephen Stewart. He was participating in a conceal-carry course and by state law, you are required to draw the weapon out of a holster. He just got on the range, loaded it and it was an accident.


I can't believe he's hiding behind this false information to cover his butt. Like, not my fault, the state makes us have noobs holster and unholster loaded guns.

Someone needs to do a stupidity intervention on the instructor. Really the only benefit out of these classes is to understand our rediculous Illinois laws. How is an instructor that doesn't even understand the state instructor requirements going to teach where you can and can't carry a gun, when to use deadly force, etc.

That kind of teaching is worse then no teaching at all.

Edited by chicagoresident, 15 February 2018 - 07:10 PM.


#60 Smallbore

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:53 PM

I would like to clarify that i do not teach drawing a loaded gun from a holster in my 16 hour ccl class nor will i be using it during renewal.
I teach holster work as a separate class generally in one on one traning sessions.
My range is not a cold range. I allow shooters to cc. I first talk to them then watch them draw and clear their gun at the line. I have had no problems nor do i expect any. I trust my fellow citizen.

Edited by Smallbore, 13 February 2018 - 09:55 PM.





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