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KOSHINSKI vs Trame


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#1 Molly B.

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 10:32 AM

Interesting case concerning orders of protection, the Second and Fourteenth Amendments.

 

http://www.illinoisc...5150398_R23.pdf

 

David Koshinski is challenging state law that revokes FOID and CCL in cases of emergency order of protection prior to plaintiff  getting a court hearing.

 

Link to story in Belleville News-Democrat


Edited by Molly B., 22 April 2017 - 02:27 PM.
added link

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#2 BobPistol

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:36 AM

This is good news.  But I'm not getting my hopes up.   This is a chink in the armor of the FOID Act and a great case to challenge that part.   Will it declare the entire FOID Act unconstitutional?   I doubt it.  But I think Koshinski is likely to win on this particular case and part of the FOID/FCCL Acts. .


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#3 mauserme

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 12:21 PM

This seems to have implications regarding the lethal order of protection bills pending in both houses.


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#4 JTHunter

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 12:56 PM

What will be interesting is the end result(s) of the remanded case.  Just remember though, it is in Madison County, well known for being a "judicial hellhole".


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#5 Teufel Hunden

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:15 PM

What will be interesting is the end result(s) of the remanded case.  Just remember though, it is in Madison County, well known for being a "judicial hellhole".


I'm certainly not saying that Madison County is a favorable jurisdiction, but judicial heck holes refers to jurisdictions that are perennially favorable to the plaintiff's bar. It is not a reference to criminal proceedings.

#6 Molly B.

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:24 PM

Interesting case concerning orders of protection, the Second and Fourteenth Amendments.

 

http://www.illinoisc...5150398_R23.pdf

 

David Koshinski is challenging state law that revokes FOID and CCL in cases of emergency order of protection prior to plaintiff  getting a court hearing.

 

 

Link to story in Belleville News-Democrat


"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#7 videopaul

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 02:09 PM

I had an Emergency Order of Protection issued against me.  How did I find out about the order of protection?  The state police left me a robo-message telling me there was a problem with my CCL.  I called the ISP who told me they couldn't tell me anything and I should talk to the sheriff in Kendall County.  I called the sheriff's office and they said they couldn't tell me anything, that I would have to come in.  I went to the sheriff's department and a very kind, very nice deputy said he couldn't find anything but there were a couple of more placed he had to look.  He came back about 15 minutes later and said "I think I found your problem" and handed me the order of protection.  I surrendered by CCL and my FOID card on the spot and the Oswego Police met me at home. 

 

I had to surrender all of my guns and ammo, and was given ten minutes to pack.  I was then thrown out of the house which I own and I pay for on December 24th.  And yes, the timing was 100% deliberate on my now ex-wife's part.  The first day I could get a court appearance was on January 4th due to the new year.  I had to spend $1,100 on a hotel and could not be with my children for Christmas or New Year's Eve. 

 

At 9:30AM on January 4h, my attorney and I were at the court hearing.  Testifying for me were myself, my mother and my son.  My attorney pointed out that deliberate falsehoods were told on the application which he proved immediately were 100% false. 

 

The judge took less than 15 minutes to quash with prejudice the entire order as unfounded, order my gun rights to be restored, and warned my now ex-wife that another unfounded order would be met with significant penalties for her.

 

She left the courtroom crying, accused my attorney of being a "hired gun" (well....ummm..YEAH, that's the way the system works, darling) and ran out of the court house.  The entire debacle cost me more than $2.000 to house me over the holidays and get the order quashed and my gun RIGHTs restored because the order was issued without any input from me or any chance for me to confront my accuser, cross examine witnesses or examine the evidence against me.  It took several MONTHS and the kind assistance of Molly and our amazing NRA rep to get my confiscated guns returned to me.  The ISP had told me it would be "six months or more" before they would reissue my FOID card and hat they didn't care WHO ordered my gun rights restored.

 

The entire system is unconstitutional and MUST be reformed.  Denying someone a constitutionally guaranteed right without any appearance before a judge is unconscionable.  I'd be very, very happy to testify on this gentleman's behalf at trial.

 

Oh, by the way, my now ex-wife's "amazing" boyfriend while all of this was going on had HER arrested three times for domestic violence, the last one included a felony charge for battery on a police officer.  That's still yet to go to trial.  She hasn't paid or filed taxes since 2013, refused to give me the paperwork for me to file them (the IRS helped out getting all the forms reissued from employers and such) and the state is now going after her to garnish her wages fore non-payment of child support.  And yet, I'm still the bad guy.


Edited by videopaul, 23 April 2017 - 02:15 PM.


#8 OldMarineVet

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 02:18 PM

 

Interesting case concerning orders of protection, the Second and Fourteenth Amendments.

 

http://www.illinoisc...5150398_R23.pdf

 

David Koshinski is challenging state law that revokes FOID and CCL in cases of emergency order of protection prior to plaintiff  getting a court hearing.

 

 

Link to story in Belleville News-Democrat

 

What a well written/objective news article (such a rarity.) Thanks for your assistance.  



#9 OldMarineVet

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 02:33 PM

I had an Emergency Order of Protection issued against me.  How did I find out about the order of protection?  The state police left me a robo-message telling me there was a problem with my CCL.  I called the ISP who told me they couldn't tell me anything and I should talk to the sheriff in Kendall County.  I called the sheriff's office and they said they couldn't tell me anything, that I would have to come in.  I went to the sheriff's department and a very kind, very nice deputy said he couldn't find anything but there were a couple of more placed he had to look.  He came back about 15 minutes later and said "I think I found your problem" and handed me the order of protection.  I surrendered by CCL and my FOID card on the spot and the Oswego Police met me at home. 

 

I had to surrender all of my guns and ammo, and was given ten minutes to pack.  I was then thrown out of the house which I own and I pay for on December 24th.  And yes, the timing was 100% deliberate on my now ex-wife's part.  The first day I could get a court appearance was on January 4th due to the new year.  I had to spend $1,100 on a hotel and could not be with my children for Christmas or New Year's Eve. 

 

At 9:30AM on January 4h, my attorney and I were at the court hearing.  Testifying for me were myself, my mother and my son.  My attorney pointed out that deliberate falsehoods were told on the application which he proved immediately were 100% false. 

 

The judge took less than 15 minutes to quash with prejudice the entire order as unfounded, order my gun rights to be restored, and warned my now ex-wife that another unfounded order would be met with significant penalties for her.

 

She left the courtroom crying, accused my attorney of being a "hired gun" (well....ummm..YEAH, that's the way the system works, darling) and ran out of the court house.  The entire debacle cost me more than $2.000 to house me over the holidays and get the order quashed and my gun RIGHTs restored because the order was issued without any input from me or any chance for me to confront my accuser, cross examine witnesses or examine the evidence against me.  It took several MONTHS and the kind assistance of Molly and our amazing NRA rep to get my confiscated guns returned to me.  The ISP had told me it would be "six months or more" before they would reissue my FOID card and hat they didn't care WHO ordered my gun rights restored.

 

The entire system is unconstitutional and MUST be reformed.  Denying someone a constitutionally guaranteed right without any appearance before a judge is unconscionable.  I'd be very, very happy to testify on this gentleman's behalf at trial.

 

Oh, by the way, my now ex-wife's "amazing" boyfriend while all of this was going on had HER arrested three times for domestic violence, the last one included a felony charge for battery on a police officer.  That's still yet to go to trial.  She hasn't paid or filed taxes since 2013, refused to give me the paperwork for me to file them (the IRS helped out getting all the forms reissued from employers and such) and the state is now going after her to garnish her wages fore non-payment of child support.  And yet, I'm still the bad guy.

Close call.  Glad it eventually worked out. I agree.  Unconstitutional laws like this (actions without due process) should be scrapped before enacted instead of allowing people to be injured.



#10 videopaul

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 02:46 PM

 

I had an Emergency Order of Protection issued against me.  How did I find out about the order of protection?  The state police left me a robo-message telling me there was a problem with my CCL.  I called the ISP who told me they couldn't tell me anything and I should talk to the sheriff in Kendall County.  I called the sheriff's office and they said they couldn't tell me anything, that I would have to come in.  I went to the sheriff's department and a very kind, very nice deputy said he couldn't find anything but there were a couple of more placed he had to look.  He came back about 15 minutes later and said "I think I found your problem" and handed me the order of protection.  I surrendered by CCL and my FOID card on the spot and the Oswego Police met me at home. 

 

I had to surrender all of my guns and ammo, and was given ten minutes to pack.  I was then thrown out of the house which I own and I pay for on December 24th.  And yes, the timing was 100% deliberate on my now ex-wife's part.  The first day I could get a court appearance was on January 4th due to the new year.  I had to spend $1,100 on a hotel and could not be with my children for Christmas or New Year's Eve. 

 

At 9:30AM on January 4h, my attorney and I were at the court hearing.  Testifying for me were myself, my mother and my son.  My attorney pointed out that deliberate falsehoods were told on the application which he proved immediately were 100% false. 

 

The judge took less than 15 minutes to quash with prejudice the entire order as unfounded, order my gun rights to be restored, and warned my now ex-wife that another unfounded order would be met with significant penalties for her.

 

She left the courtroom crying, accused my attorney of being a "hired gun" (well....ummm..YEAH, that's the way the system works, darling) and ran out of the court house.  The entire debacle cost me more than $2.000 to house me over the holidays and get the order quashed and my gun RIGHTs restored because the order was issued without any input from me or any chance for me to confront my accuser, cross examine witnesses or examine the evidence against me.  It took several MONTHS and the kind assistance of Molly and our amazing NRA rep to get my confiscated guns returned to me.  The ISP had told me it would be "six months or more" before they would reissue my FOID card and hat they didn't care WHO ordered my gun rights restored.

 

The entire system is unconstitutional and MUST be reformed.  Denying someone a constitutionally guaranteed right without any appearance before a judge is unconscionable.  I'd be very, very happy to testify on this gentleman's behalf at trial.

 

Oh, by the way, my now ex-wife's "amazing" boyfriend while all of this was going on had HER arrested three times for domestic violence, the last one included a felony charge for battery on a police officer.  That's still yet to go to trial.  She hasn't paid or filed taxes since 2013, refused to give me the paperwork for me to file them (the IRS helped out getting all the forms reissued from employers and such) and the state is now going after her to garnish her wages fore non-payment of child support.  And yet, I'm still the bad guy.

Close call.  Glad it eventually worked out. I agree.  Unconstitutional laws like this (actions without due process) should be scrapped before enacted instead of allowing people to be injured.

 

It's the same reason that denying people's gun rights if they are on a terror watch list.  You have no way of knowing you're on one and there is no due process--and you can't get off the list.  They are screwing with a constitutionally guaranteed right without due process...and that is clearly unconstitutional.  Liberals don't get that.



#11 Gamma

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:05 AM

Maag as the attorney doesn't give me a good feeling about this... didn't he screw up another case? One of the non-resident CCL cases?
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#12 kwc

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:39 AM

Maag as the attorney doesn't give me a good feeling about this... didn't he screw up another case? One of the non-resident CCL cases?


He was the plaintiff's attorney in Samuel v. Trame (http://illinoiscarry...=+samuel +trame), the nonresident military CCL case. The plaintiff lost, Maag appealed to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, and didn't file the Docketing Statement in time. The appeal was dismissed.
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#13 skinnyb82

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 07:58 AM

Maag is his attorney? He should've proceeded pro se. He'd have a better chance at a favorable resolution without that know-nothing asbestos lawyer. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#14 skinnyb82

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 08:05 AM

And yes, he screwed his client in Horsley v. Trame by abandoning....well, he didn't even raise the argument that ISP does not, will not issue a FOID to a "minor" under 21 without parental or guardian approval. He never argued that an 18-20 year-old with a guardian is a prohibited person because, well, they are emancipated at 18 and to have a guardian means the person is mentally incapable of managing his or her own affairs. That's what you get when you retain a lawyer who never goes to trial, always settles, and only handles torts. Also, allegedly patronizes prostitutes. Was arrested for said offense in Collinsville I believe, charges dismissed because his daddy is a big shot. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#15 Hipshot Percussion

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 08:07 AM

 

 

I had an Emergency Order of Protection issued against me.  How did I find out about the order of protection?  The state police left me a robo-message telling me there was a problem with my CCL.  I called the ISP who told me they couldn't tell me anything and I should talk to the sheriff in Kendall County.  I called the sheriff's office and they said they couldn't tell me anything, that I would have to come in.  I went to the sheriff's department and a very kind, very nice deputy said he couldn't find anything but there were a couple of more placed he had to look.  He came back about 15 minutes later and said "I think I found your problem" and handed me the order of protection.  I surrendered by CCL and my FOID card on the spot and the Oswego Police met me at home. 

 

I had to surrender all of my guns and ammo, and was given ten minutes to pack.  I was then thrown out of the house which I own and I pay for on December 24th.  And yes, the timing was 100% deliberate on my now ex-wife's part.  The first day I could get a court appearance was on January 4th due to the new year.  I had to spend $1,100 on a hotel and could not be with my children for Christmas or New Year's Eve. 

 

At 9:30AM on January 4h, my attorney and I were at the court hearing.  Testifying for me were myself, my mother and my son.  My attorney pointed out that deliberate falsehoods were told on the application which he proved immediately were 100% false. 

 

The judge took less than 15 minutes to quash with prejudice the entire order as unfounded, order my gun rights to be restored, and warned my now ex-wife that another unfounded order would be met with significant penalties for her.

 

She left the courtroom crying, accused my attorney of being a "hired gun" (well....ummm..YEAH, that's the way the system works, darling) and ran out of the court house.  The entire debacle cost me more than $2.000 to house me over the holidays and get the order quashed and my gun RIGHTs restored because the order was issued without any input from me or any chance for me to confront my accuser, cross examine witnesses or examine the evidence against me.  It took several MONTHS and the kind assistance of Molly and our amazing NRA rep to get my confiscated guns returned to me.  The ISP had told me it would be "six months or more" before they would reissue my FOID card and hat they didn't care WHO ordered my gun rights restored.

 

The entire system is unconstitutional and MUST be reformed.  Denying someone a constitutionally guaranteed right without any appearance before a judge is unconscionable.  I'd be very, very happy to testify on this gentleman's behalf at trial.

 

Oh, by the way, my now ex-wife's "amazing" boyfriend while all of this was going on had HER arrested three times for domestic violence, the last one included a felony charge for battery on a police officer.  That's still yet to go to trial.  She hasn't paid or filed taxes since 2013, refused to give me the paperwork for me to file them (the IRS helped out getting all the forms reissued from employers and such) and the state is now going after her to garnish her wages fore non-payment of child support.  And yet, I'm still the bad guy.

Close call.  Glad it eventually worked out. I agree.  Unconstitutional laws like this (actions without due process) should be scrapped before enacted instead of allowing people to be injured.

 

It's the same reason that denying people's gun rights if they are on a terror watch list.  You have no way of knowing you're on one and there is no due process--and you can't get off the list.  They are screwing with a constitutionally guaranteed right without due process...and that is clearly unconstitutional.  Liberals don't get that.

 

Oh, they get it.  They just don't care.  The ends justify the means - as their savior Saul Alinsky would say.  And if they get to cause a little pain in the process?  I think it makes them happy.


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#16 mrmagloo

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 08:15 AM

OMG, nothing like having an important case handled by a borderline imbecile.  Isn't this something that a REAL Pro 2A Attorney might want to intervene on before he sabotages the case, and perhaps screws the rest of us?  



#17 skinnyb82

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 07:52 AM

Think about how little the average American knows about the law, how there's different standards for different...there's a reason law school is three years and JDs graduate with a cursory understanding of every field. Takes years of practicing law to reach the level of an attorney such as David Sigale, and not entirely specializing in con law but far more than Maag. Maag is a toxic tort lawyer by trade. He doesn't litigate, which is why he flubbed the Horsley case. He doesn't think like a constitutional law attorney....because he isn't one, never has been, never will be. Little nuances make a huge difference and he doesn't look at the small picture. Only looks at the big, this is how it should be because I said so. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#18 skinnyb82

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 07:55 AM

The average American will retain an attorney without even looking into his or her record, reviews, whatever. All I would have to do is Google Maag to determine that he isn't competent to handle any case that involves civil liberties. He should stick with using junk science to extract large sums of money out of every corporation in the Madison/St. Clair County area. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#19 mrmagloo

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 08:01 AM

Again, if this could be a precedence setting case, that very well could set us back years in the event of another flub, wouldn't the NRA or other Pro-2A organization try to get involved before it's too late?  I think everyone agrees this Maag guy is bad for this case, but the question is, what can be done about it?



#20 skinnyb82

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 08:28 AM

Should get involved but....how? By filing a motion to intervene? On what grounds? That would be denied. The attorney of record is the attorney of record until the plaintiff fires counsel, counsel withdraws, or is deemed ineffective. There's nothing that can be done. I know of one person who has actually emailed him about precedential dispositions and he ignored them, more or less. Maag borked Horsley and Samuel. Now he's gonna bork Koshinski but...I have read the Rule 23 order and...he successfully argued that the Public Interest Exception applies, therefore the case is not moot despite the plaintiff's gun rights being restored. This is the first time I've ever seen a court preserve a Due Process question regarding the FOID Card Act despite the case being moot (it is moot, but a court concocted exception applies). Maybe Maag learned something from his prior screw-ups. http://www.illinoisc...5150398_R23.pdf Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#21 mrmagloo

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 10:39 AM

I obviously have no experience in such a situation, other than concern of the fallout if this is screwed up. The most logical thought would be for one of the big Pro-2A Orgs to reach out to Koshinski and/or Maag and offer support as a first step.


Edited by mrmagloo, 26 April 2017 - 10:40 AM.


#22 JTHunter

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 09:21 PM

 

Interesting case concerning orders of protection, the Second and Fourteenth Amendments.

 

http://www.illinoisc...5150398_R23.pdf

 

David Koshinski is challenging state law that revokes FOID and CCL in cases of emergency order of protection prior to plaintiff  getting a court hearing.

 

 

Link to story in Belleville News-Democrat

 

 

I saw that article last weekend.  Let us hope that the Madison county judge has "learned his lesson" and that Mr. Koshinski's suit is successful.  It might put another nail in the coffin of FOID cards.


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#23 skinnyb82

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 07:56 AM

The State will appeal the ruling of the circuit court if it rules against the State. That is certain. In this case, the appeals court told the trial court that it has to deal with this question. It didn't say "Here's the answer to that question." This order in no way indicates that the appellate court will not "side" with the state on this very issue since the State will argue that the public interest is in keeping guns out of the hands of people who have active orders of protection out on them. That the government's public safety interest overrides the gun owner's liberty interest. What boggles the mind is that ANYONE can walk into court, file a petition for an ex parte order of protection ("victim's advocate" will even assist petitioner) and, based on testimony from one party, issue or deny the emergency petition. There is no Due Process afforded to the respondent as he or she is completely unaware of the court proceedings. There are too many cases where a disgruntled family member, ex-wife, ex-girlfriend, ex-whatever, will file a bogus petition for an EOP under the IL Domestic Violence Act. Fabricate a load of bull for the court, get an EOP granted and proceed to torment the respondent. They exploit the court system as a means of revenge. Until the abuse of this process can be controlled, FOIDs and CCLs should not be suspended or revoked until it reaches the plenary phase and the respondent, having been afforded the right to respond to the petition, is still found to be a danger to the petitioner, then by all means go suspend or revoke stuff. But not before the respondent is even aware that this is happening. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#24 kevintb7

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 11:35 PM

Obviously with 10 minutes you might not have time. But if this were to happen to someone, could said person strip their lowers and just surrender those? Or at least field strip? With enough notice could you entrust them to a friend with a FOID? It just seems rediculous that your property can be confiscated, and then it the months if you're lucky to get back.

Obviously the whole thing is bull****, but tactically if you got that robot message would one of those two be an option?

#25 skinnyb82

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Posted 30 April 2017 - 08:41 AM

The huge problem is the respondent is completely unaware of the order until the police show up to serve him or her. And the only possible way that they wouldn't take a gun is if it's been permanently rendered inoperable, and that's probably no guarantee since a stock or grip of a pistol can be used as a blunt instrument. Transferring them to a friend with proof you will not have access to them, pending the dispo of the plenary hearing, should be sufficient. I don't want ISP with their slimy hands all over my guns. God only knows what happens when they seize firearms. I don't even think they would like to have the responsibility of keeping track of someone's property, especially firearms, because of the constitutional implications. It's easier on everyone if people are allowed to transfer to another FOID holder and, if the order is extended to a two-year plenary OP, then there should be a mechanism for a (sort-of) trustee appointed by the State or the party who has an active OP entered against him or her to sell the firearms at market prices, give proceeds to the former owner. The Takings Clause is implicated in this. They still cannot seize private property and keep it, auction it off in a case such as this. There's still a property interest. Problem is, for every one of these guys, there's 10 of the "other" variety or 10 of the "we have no idea if this man or woman is a loose cannon." The variety that actually is dangerous. How dangerous? I don't know, and it's next to impossible to assess the case based on statements made by parties involved. I do know that it's a very unpredictable situation because it's family or a spouse, partner, whatever, and emotions run high. People do stuff they would not consider doing at any other time. How do they evaluate whether someone should or should not have his or her gun rights temporarily suspended in the name of public safety and the safety of the petitioner? My objective point of view. I have seen FAR too many of these petitions filled with lies. Anyone who has ever dealt with this part of "the system" knows that the court system encourages women to file these things. They have instructions, people to help, the advocates have been known to "guide" petitioners through the process, convincing petitioners to exaggerate claims. I know one guy who has a plenary out on him simply because he believed with all of his heart that he had no chance of having the order for the EOP to be extended to a plenary order denied. And he didn't lay a finger on this woman. Oh, and women essentially receive legal representation free of charge when involved in OP cases. Men, no, they must retain counsel as the process is not of the criminal variety and there is no Sixth Amendment right to counsel. I ran into the brother of the man who ran against Cheri Bustos (17th Congressional District) at Walmart one day not too long ago and struck up a conversation with him, not even knowing who he is, just talking about how expensive kids are. Another victim of a mentally ill woman who physically attacked him, threatening to kill him, he defends himself with a piece of broken glass and guess who was arrested? Not the woman who instigated it and forced him into the situation where he had to defend himself or face serious bodily harm. He was convicted of domestic battery and can no longer own a firearm. She proceeded to try to have him arrested approximately a dozen more times, so many times without any merit to her accusations that the police actually put her in a special database for false accusers, told him to take out an order on her (he laughed, said it was just a piece of paper), and leave her. Every time they would respond to his home, they would tell him to get out. He finally took their advice, but not until she had successfully stripped him of his Second Amendment rights. I could write on and on about how the number of DV victims are men, statistics are misleading as most men wouldn't report "I was beat up by a woman who is one foot shorter than me, 150 lbs lighter than me." Come on. The process is abused, the system won't dare challenge these women even if they're alleging that their spouse, partner, whatever, summoned demons to abuse her. Bit of an extreme example but when they make filing a petition for an ex parte order of protection is turned into an assembly line, when they employ contractors who encourage petitioners to lie on the petition, when they advertise that this is available, then what did they think would happen? It's just like welfare. They advertise it, tell people "You don't have to do a thing to receive this and this and this...." then it will be abused and is being abused. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#26 skinnyb82

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 08:39 AM

This is now a published, precedential disposition. That gives us a lot more ammo to challenge any mental health nonsense when it comes to voluntary admissions or psych holds by vindictive LEOs or whatever. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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