CCL process still complicated for military members serving in IL

[domin8]

Therefore, getting rid of "substantially similar" is a better route because it applies to more people.

 

Furthermore, the Military Spouse Relief Act of 2009, generically speaking, extends to the doses and children the same rights and benefits active duty military personnel enjoy via the Soldiers and Sailors Relief Act. Illinois income tax isn't withdrawn from my paycheck by my employer due to this and I'm not an Illinois resident.

 

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

[transplant]

Therefore, getting rid of "substantially similar" is a better route because it applies to more people.

 

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

 

So let's suppose they replace "substantially similar" in the law with a delineated list of specific requirements, in the law. And let's suppose not all 50 states meet the delineated requirements. Let's suppose the new list of specific requirements has to do with monitoring citizens' criminal and mental health.

 

They're still denying people permits based on the ease of Illinois validating the individual's eligibility based on Illinois requirements, rather than on the individual's eligibility.

 

I say that's a 4th amendment violation (equal protection) and also goes against innocent until proven guilty. They're presuming you're guilty if it's inconvenient for the state to validate and continue to validate your eligibility against Illinois requirements.

[Gamma]

the current FCCA as written allows enough room for interpretation to treat military members (and potentially their spouses!) as residents. It isn't clear yet if the ISP leadership sees this the same way. The best solution would be to pass legislation that makes this point very clear.

The best solution is to eliminate the "substantially similar" provision and issue licenses in a non-discriminatory fashion, to include cost.

 

The immediate solution would be for ISP to comply with the federal law requiring that active duty military members be treated as residents. The fact that their online application system can't handle it is not the military members' problem.

[kwc]

Does the digital ID requirement go away with paper applications?

 

I would *think* so, since the digital ID is only needed to log into the online application site. It wouldn't make sense to use a hybrid system.

 

But we won't know for sure until the printed applications and associated procedures are published.

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

[kwc]

The best solution is to eliminate the "substantially similar" provision and issue licenses in a non-discriminatory fashion, to include cost.

 

The immediate solution would be for ISP to comply with the federal law requiring that active duty military members be treated as residents. The fact that their online application system can't handle it is not the military members' problem.

 

I'm experiencing a feeling of déjà vu since we've discussed this in several other threads before. But yes, agree wholeheartedly removing the substantial similarity requirement is the best solution.

 

As for Federal law, military members are treated as residents under BATFE regulations regarding purchase and transport of firearms. Nothing in Federal law explicitly requires a state to treat military members as residents for the purpose of obtaining a concealed carry license. But it makes no sense to not do so.

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

[Molly B.]

 

I thought the service personnel civil rights act included spouses and children?

Yes, but unfortunately IL law hasn't caught up to that fact yet and IL won't issue FOID cards to non-resident spouses.

I did not realize that. We need to get that fixed.

[ZomBGone012]

This is why we beed federal reciprocity, this state to state and who lives where is sad.

[crusher]

I would check with the DMV to see if you have or can get a DMV Number of some kind.

I am an IL res on AD in NJ. I have an IL DL and CCW. I also have a NJ FOID (FID here). Federally according to the BATFE I am a res of both states and can buy handguns in both states. To do this in NJ without a NJ DL or ID (can't get one and keep the IL DL) I use a number assigned to me by the NJ DMV. This is the same number I needed to register my truck in NJ. It may be a long shot, but trying to help.

PS: I'm moving to AZ soon. Freedom at last!

[kwc]

I would check with the DMV to see if you have or can get a DMV Number of some kind. I am an IL res on AD in NJ. I have an IL DL and CCW. I also have a NJ FOID (FID here). Federally according to the BATFE I am a res of both states and can buy handguns in both states. To do this in NJ without a NJ DL or ID (can't get one and keep the IL DL) I use a number assigned to me by the NJ DMV. This is the same number I needed to register my truck in NJ. It may be a long shot, but trying to help. PS: I'm moving to AZ soon. Freedom at last!

Crusher, although an FFL in IL is allowed to sell you a firearm here based on your possession of an IL driver's license, the 4473 requires you to list your current address (where you currently reside). Since that is in NJ, ATF regulations consider NJ to be your residence and I'm pretty certain that is the only place you can legally purchase.

 

According to the ATF "Federal Firearms Licensee Quick Reference and Best Practices Guide":

 

A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. FFLs may accept electronic permanent change of station (PCS) orders, accompanied by a valid military identification card, to establish residency for an active duty military member of the Armed Forces.

I know many military personnel have purchased in their legal state of residence and in their current state of assignment, and the FFL never challenges it because the member shows military ID and orders in one and their DL in the other. But for the purpose of purchase and transfer, your state of assignment is your residency. The only exception is when you live in one state and commute to your active duty station in a neighboring state; in that case, you are considered a resident of both states.

 

Appreciate your recommendation to obtain a number from the DMV. Unfortunately, only a DL or a State ID are acceptable forms of identification when applying for an IL FCCL and neither can be obtained without forfeiting one from your legal state of residency (as you've discovered in NJ). I've been told by the local IL DMV, our base legal office at Scott AFB, and by the IL Secretary of State that this is a firm restriction.

 

Congrats on moving to a free state! Six of my 10 assignments to date have been in locations where concealed carry was not an option for me. I am hoping things change for me here in IL.

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

[crusher]

The big confusion seems to always go back to "what is residency". I maintain IL for voting, military home of address, and taxes. I work and own a house in NJ (for sale by the way). Most say it is were you have a DL, I find this a strange litmus test as driving has nothing to do with it. Others will say a state ID sets residency, but I can get that by way of either set of circumstances above so that seems like a poor test of residency. I personally believe that the IRS is the trump card here and this where you vote and pay taxes would be the best test.

[crusher]

Fortunately, even if I've been wrong about my ability to buy handguns in IL, I have never done so. Also, it seems strange that I can get a FCCL but can't buy a handgun in IL.

[kwc]

Fortunately, even if I've been wrong about my ability to buy handguns in IL, I have never done so. Also, it seems strange that I can get a FCCL but can't buy a handgun in IL.

 

And I have that problem in reverse. I can buy a handgun in IL but can't obtain an FCCL here. That is a result of differences between state and federal law.

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

[domin8]

I would check with the DMV to see if you have or can get a DMV Number of some kind. I am an IL res on AD in NJ. I have an IL DL and CCW. I also have a NJ FOID (FID here). Federally according to the BATFE I am a res of both states and can buy handguns in both states. To do this in NJ without a NJ DL or ID (can't get one and keep the IL DL) I use a number assigned to me by the NJ DMV. This is the same number I needed to register my truck in NJ. It may be a long shot, but trying to help. PS: I'm moving to AZ soon. Freedom at last!

 

Crusher, although an FFL in IL is allowed to sell you a firearm here based on your possession of an IL driver's license, the 4473 requires you to list your current address (where you currently reside). Since that is in NJ, ATF regulations consider NJ to be your residence and I'm pretty certain that is the only place you can legally purchase.

According to the ATF "Federal Firearms Licensee Quick Reference and Best Practices Guide":A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. FFLs may accept electronic permanent change of station (PCS) orders, accompanied by a valid military identification card, to establish residency for an active duty military member of the Armed Forces.

 

I know many military personnel have purchased in their legal state of residence and in their current state of assignment, and the FFL never challenges it because the member shows military ID and orders in one and their DL in the other. But for the purpose of purchase and transfer, your state of assignment is your residency. The only exception is when you live in one state and commute to your active duty station in a neighboring state; in that case, you are considered a resident of both states.

Appreciate your recommendation to obtain a number from the DMV. Unfortunately, only a DL or a State ID are acceptable forms of identification when applying for an IL FCCL and neither can be obtained without forfeiting one from your legal state of residency (as you've discovered in NJ). I've been told by the local IL DMV, our base legal office at Scott AFB, and by the IL Secretary of State that this is a firm restriction.

Congrats on moving to a free state! Six of my 10 assignments to date have been in locations where concealed carry was not an option for me. I am hoping things change for me here in IL.

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

Whoa! Careful here. There is a legal difference between permanent residence and mailing address. Crushers residence address is in Illinois. Mailing address is in New Jersey. Every 4473 I've filled out has my residence address in Utah, since that is where I reside and where my ID indicates. Anything that allows me to put down a seperate mailing address (vehicle registration, CCW, etc) also gets whatever address I am physically at.

 

"The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf

[Jatwood29]

Would op be able to get an illinois ID card from the dmv? It is my understanding that either an illinois DL OR ID is required for application.

[kwc]

Whoa!

 

Careful here. There is a legal difference between permanent residence and mailing address. Crushers residence address is in Illinois. Mailing address is in New Jersey. Every 4473 I've filled out has my residence address in Utah, since that is where I reside and where my ID indicates. Anything that allows me to put down a seperate mailing address (vehicle registration, CCW, etc) also gets whatever address I am physically at.

 

"The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf

 

According to the ATF, he is a resident of NJ since that is his current permanent duty station. I doubt an FFL would be allowed to sell him a firearm without using his NJ address on the 4473.

 

domin8, in your case, you can only purchase in Utah. It is unfortunate the same provision allowed by the ATF for the active duty member doesn't extend to spouses. If it does, I haven't found a reference to support it.

 

Admittedly, rules regarding residency can be confusing, especially when states impose their own unique requirements that differ from federal rules. Military lawyers recommend maintaining as many ties to your permanent residence as possible to ensure you are on solid legal footing: driver's license, voting, car registration, real property, etc.

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

[kwc]

Would op be able to get an illinois ID card from the dmv? It is my understanding that either an illinois DL OR ID is required for application.

 

Yes, if he doesn't need to drive. He cannot possess a driver's license from another state and an IL state ID at the same time.

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

[domin8]

 

Whoa!

 

Careful here. There is a legal difference between permanent residence and mailing address. Crushers residence address is in Illinois. Mailing address is in New Jersey. Every 4473 I've filled out has my residence address in Utah, since that is where I reside and where my ID indicates. Anything that allows me to put down a seperate mailing address (vehicle registration, CCW, etc) also gets whatever address I am physically at.

 

"The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf

According to the ATF, he is a resident of NJ since that is his current permanent duty station. I doubt an FFL would be allowed to sell him a firearm without using his NJ address on the 4473.

 

domin8, in your case, you can only purchase in Utah. It is unfortunate the same provision allowed by the ATF for the active duty member doesn't extend to spouses. If it does, I haven't found a reference to support it.

 

Admittedly, rules regarding residency can be confusing, especially when states impose their own unique requirements that differ from federal rules. Military lawyers recommend maintaining as many ties to your permanent residence as possible to ensure you are on solid legal footing: driver's license, voting, car registration, real property, etc.

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

Correction: I can only purchase handguns (and items that fall under "Other", such as stripped lowers) in my state of residence. I have purchased long guns in Wisconsin. I can purchase long guns and ammo for long guns in Illinois if I obtain a nonresident hunting license/permit.

 

What I said earlier is legally correct. I merely identified the difference legally between "resident address" and "mailing address". What you are referring to is a BATF-E regulation that stipulates active duty military with orders are to be treated the same as residents in the state the service member is on orders to be in. In all other states the service member is a nonresident.

 

"The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it." -Norman Schwarzkopf

[kwc]

 

What I said earlier is legally correct. I merely identified the difference legally between "resident address" and "mailing address". What you are referring to is a BATF-E regulation that stipulates active duty military with orders are to be treated the same as residents in the state the service member is on orders to be in. In all other states the service member is a nonresident.

 

 

Correct... BATFE regs and handgun purchases were the context in which my statement was made. I didn't anticipate anyone would interpret it otherwise.

[ragsbo]

In my not so humble opinion; active duty military should be able to concealed carry using only their military id. It is the least we can do for these folks who are getting paid way to little to give up way to much as they do.

 

 

(Of course I also believe that anyone should be able to carry everywhere (or just about) they go with out any stinking license from any form of government period!)

[Scootaloo]

In my not so humble opinion; active duty military should be able to concealed carry using only their military id. It is the least we can do for these folks who are getting paid way to little to give up way to much as they do.

 

 

(Of course I also believe that anyone should be able to carry everywhere (or just about) they go with out any stinking license from any form of government period!)

 

(OP here.) I disagree with this on the grounds that most military members have very little handgun training and no training on the local laws regarding the use of deadly force.

 

However because of our somewhat unique situation in being shuffled around the country every few years with limited options for opposing these moves, and the fact that we maintain a single state of legal residency regardless of where we are sent, I think the rules should make an allowance for us. I'm normally the last person to want any kind of special treatment for military service but I think in the particular case of concealed carry and the huge mess of laws differing between states, something is warranted. Perhaps simply requiring all states to recognize military members stationed in that state as residents for the purposes of CCW licenses, or maybe a special federally issued CCW that is valid everywhere but requires special courses to be completed through a qualified military instructor. Something to fix messes like this, anyway.