CCL process still complicated for military members serving in IL

[Scootaloo]

I haven't posted here in a while but I thought I'd toss up a new thread just to share some new information I just received. This may be old news for some of you, but it's new to me and I find it irritating.

 

I'm active duty army serving in Chicago. I have an out of state drivers license (California) but as a military member I am not required to obtain an Illinois license. Aside from this point I meet all requirements for a CCW to include having taken the class and possessing a valid FOID.

 

Anyway after my initial efforts to file for a license failed I gave up for a while, then earlier this week I decided to send an email to the ISP to try to get a clear answer once and for all.

 

The following is the email chain:

 

My initial email:

--

Hello,

 

I'm an active duty member of the United States Army stationed in Illinois.

I've completed my class and meet all prerequisites for obtaining an Illinois concealed carry permit. I have an out of state drivers license but due to my military status I am exempt from the requirement to obtain an Illinois drivers license. I live in the city of Chicago but due to my lack of an IL drivers license I am unable to register for an in-state Illinois Digital ID (it requires an IL license number).

 

How can I obtain my CCW permit without having to apply for the substantially more expensive out of state resident permit?

 

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Their reply:

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Please review the following information -

 

Can out-of-state residents obtain an Illinois Concealed Carry License?

Yes. However, only residents of states or territories of the United States that have laws related to firearm ownership, possession, and carrying, that are substantially similar to the requirements to obtain a license under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act are eligible.

 

Substantially similar means the comparable state regulates who may carry firearms, concealed or otherwise, in public; prohibits all who have involuntary mental health admissions, and those with voluntary admissions within the past 5 years, from carrying firearms, concealed or otherwise, in public; reports denied persons to NICS; and participates in reporting persons authorized to carry firearms, concealed or otherwise, in public through Nlets.

 

The Illinois State Police sent a survey to each state to determine which of them has laws that are substantially similar. You can find out how your state responded and if your state’s laws have been determined to be substantially similar by visiting our web site’s frequently asked questions. Currently, the only states considered to be substantially similar are Hawaii, New Mexico, South Carolina and Virginia. Note: Not all states have responded to the survey.

 

--

My reply:

--

 

So despite living in Illinois, I am ineligible for a CCW permit due to my legal residency status?

 

--

Their reply:

--

 

Unfortunately yes, this is how the Act is written. Thank you for checking.

 

 

So, as I am not a resident of one of the four states listed, I am ineligible to have a CCW despite the fact that I live and work in downtown Chicago unless perhaps I have my legal residency changed to Illinois, something that is explicitly not required by state law for any other purpose, and something I have no intention of doing.

 

Am I the only one who thinks this is an unreasonable restriction?

[C0untZer0]

BTW, Illinois was ranked the fifth worst place for military retirees - they counted the District of Columbia as a place and the fifty states so Illinois ranked 47th out 51 "places"

 

http://www.nationaljournal.com/next-economy/big-questions/the-10-best-and-worst-states-for-military-retirees-20140523

 

 

Of course California was the worst, and New York as you might expect. I was a little surprised that Indiana and Arizona beat Illinois out as worse places for veterans.

[Indigo]

You might want to contact domin8 -he's on top of the military/nonresident issues.

[Molly B.]

Working on this with the ISP.

[kwc]

Scootaloo, you are absolutely correct and many of us believe this is tragic. I've been working with a Congressman in an attempt to get this rectified, but unfortunately this is still an issue. An IL driver's license is a firm requirement.

 

You can read much more about this topic here:

 

http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?/topic/43629-Non-Resident-Active-Duty-Military-CCL-in-IL

 

I've served now for 25 years on active duty in the Air Force and am now stationed at Scott AFB in southwest IL. As a PA resident, I am I ineligible too... talk about a frustrating position to be in.

 

 

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

[divemaster03]

So, how does this "no brainer" of an aspect of the fccl even escape the notice of those in the know or those in the legislature? I don't get it. Some aspects of this law (not too many) are ok, but then some things like this are just plain idiotic. And I gave no confidence in the isp or our legislature to make these things right.

[Drylok]

I thought active military were exempt from the training requirement

[kwc]

So, how does this "no brainer" of an aspect of the fccl even escape the notice of those in the know or those in the legislature? I don't get it. Some aspects of this law (not too many) are ok, but then some things like this are just plain idiotic. And I gave no confidence in the isp or our legislature to make these things right.

 

In conversation with my congressman, I'm convinced this was an oversight of the legislature and they never even considered a provision to allow military members to apply as residents, nor did they consider that the vast majority of military personnel (and spouses) would be excluded from applying as non-residents. It simply wasn't on their radar at the time.

 

Also note that in my interpretation, the current FCCA as written allows enough room for interpretation to treat military members (and potentially their spouses!) as residents. It isn't clear yet if the ISP leadership sees this the same way. The best solution would be to pass legislation that makes this point very clear.

 

Drylok, active duty military receive credit for 8 of the 16 hours of training. The remaining 8 hours of training are still required.

 

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

[G29SF]

The title to this post is a little misleading. Military members can get a FCCL, they just have to be residents like the rest of us.

 

Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

[domin8]

You might want to contact domin8 -he's on top of the military/nonresident issues.

Yes, and so is kwc. I've been leaning on Rep Drury (because he claims to be pro military, so I thought I'd attack this that way) and another Rep out of Alton. I'm a veteran and currently a military spouse. My residency is Utah. I live near Army Base Fort Sheridan.

 

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

[domin8]

I thought active military were exempt from the training requirement

Nope. Max credit they may obtain is 8 hours.

 

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

[domin8]

The title to this post is a little misleading. Military members can get a FCCL, they just have to be residents like the rest of us.

 

Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

Or residents of Virginia, Hawaii, South Carolina, or New Mexico.

 

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

[kwc]

Or residents of Virginia, Hawaii, South Carolina, or New Mexico.

 

With a permit or license from that state...

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

[Stevepk]

I was a Wisconsin resident when I joined the USAF. After a few years of paying Wi taxes I decided I was not getting my moneys worth. Illinois does not tax active duty income. What benefits are gaining staying a Ca resident? IMHO change of residence is In order.

[chibooey]

Another fine mess they created by not creating a proper law. Would a Illinois state ID work in lieu of the drivers license? Is there a requirement to turn in a drivers license from another state to obtain and Illinois state ID?

[G29SF]

Lets not forget you must be a resident to get a resident FCCL. If a military member chooses to not be a resident, why do they think they should get a resident FCCL?

 

I am ex military by the way, so I have no beef. This just sounds like a "you want your cake and eat it too" situation.

Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

[domin8]

Or residents of Virginia, Hawaii, South Carolina, or New Mexico.

 

With a permit or license from that state...

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

True. I assumed that was understood. My bad for assuming.

 

I was a Wisconsin resident when I joined the USAF. After a few years of paying Wi taxes I decided I was not getting my moneys worth. Illinois does not tax active duty income. What benefits are gaining staying a Ca resident? IMHO change of residence is In order.

Concerning the differences between Illinois and California, I would agree with you here. OP may benefit in more than 1 way by becoming an Illinois resident.

 

Another fine mess they created by not creating a proper law. Would a Illinois state ID work in lieu of the drivers license? Is there a requirement to turn in a drivers license from another state to obtain and Illinois state ID?

Yes, every state that I'm aware of requires the surrender of your drivers license when obtaining a new one in another state. Iirc, this is a requirement from DHS.

 

Lets not forget you must be a resident to get a resident FCCL. If a military member chooses to not be a resident, why do they think they should get a resident FCCL?

 

I am ex military by the way, so I have no beef. This just sounds like a "you want your cake and eat it too" situation.

Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

Probably because they can get a FOID Card. Imo, resident permit or nonresident permit it doesn't matter to me as long as one can be obtained.

 

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

[Molly B.]

If they can get a FOID card, they should be able to get a CCL as well. Working on this.

[howie]

We had an active duty Navy sailor and his father go through one of our classes. The sailor is stationed in NY but maintains a permanent address at his parents house in IL. He has a NY drivers license. He went to SOS to pick up an IL ID card, but they wouldn't issue him one since he has a NY DL. So, even though he was born and raised here, and maintains an IL address, h has to pay the non-resident $300 application fee. Makes no sense to me at all. Hope they get this straightened out.

[kwc]

We had an active duty Navy sailor and his father go through one of our classes. The sailor is stationed in NY but maintains a permanent address at his parents house in IL. He has a NY drivers license. He went to SOS to pick up an IL ID card, but they wouldn't issue him one since he has a NY DL. So, even though he was born and raised here, and maintains an IL address, h has to pay the non-resident $300 application fee. Makes no sense to me at all. Hope they get this straightened out.

 

Unfortunately, that active duty sailor need not apply--he won't even be able to get past the 2nd screen on the application. IL will consider him a NY resident, and residents of NY are ineligible to apply for an IL FCCL. And if he attempts to submit his e-application as an IL resident, his lack of an IL driver's license will not allow him to proceed either.

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

[kwc]

Lets not forget you must be a resident to get a resident FCCL. If a military member chooses to not be a resident, why do they think they should get a resident FCCL?

 

I am ex military by the way, so I have no beef. This just sounds like a "you want your cake and eat it too" situation.

Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

 

The vast majority of military members are public servants of the truest nature and are dedicated to serving their nation and communities without expectation of "special treatment." I doubt it matters tremendously to most of us if we are classified as residents or non-residents, as long as we can at least achieve a minimum ability to exercise our 2A rights as our next-door neighbors and friends are able to do. Allowing us to apply at resident rates would be a nice courtesy, but at least allow us to apply!

 

Forcing a military member to declare residency in their current state of assignment just to be able to bear arms is an absurd expectation. In fact, the mere fact that ANY non-resident is prohibited from carrying here is absurd... but when you pay rent here, kids attend the local school, and pour billions into the economy (Scott AFB alone has an annual economic impact of $3 billion), one would think a simple courtesy to allow military members to conceal carry would be a given.

 

Over 10 assignments in 7 different states in 25 years, maintaining a consistent state of residence has been very helpful for me personally, and in fact Congress established provisions allowing that "anchor" recognizing the many complications we face when moving frequently and often with little notice or choice of location. A member's state of residence is NOT supposed to be driven by tax advantages, ability to obtain a CCL, or anything else--it is supposed to be, whenever possible, based on the location to which that member intends to establish permanent domicile upon separation or retirement from the military.

 

I like to have and eat cake but would certainly settle for some healthy fruits, vegetables, and a right to bear arms.

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

[domin8]

If they can get a FOID card, they should be able to get a CCL as well. Working on this.

Ouch! Statements like this make it hard to support IC, et al.

 

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

[domin8]

We had an active duty Navy sailor and his father go through one of our classes. The sailor is stationed in NY but maintains a permanent address at his parents house in IL. He has a NY drivers license. He went to SOS to pick up an IL ID card, but they wouldn't issue him one since he has a NY DL. So, even though he was born and raised here, and maintains an IL address, h has to pay the non-resident $300 application fee. Makes no sense to me at all. Hope they get this straightened out.

He surrendered his Illinois residency when he obtained the New York drivers license. He needs to get familiar with The Soldiers & Sailors Relief Act.

 

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

[Molly B.]

 

If they can get a FOID card, they should be able to get a CCL as well. Working on this.

Ouch! Statements like this make it hard to support IC, et al.

 

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

 

 

 

What is wrong with this statement? The state trusts our military with a FOID card, purchasing, owning, and using a firearm in IL, why on earth shouldn't the state trust our military with carrying it wherever they have a legal right to be?

[domin8]

 

Lets not forget you must be a resident to get a resident FCCL. If a military member chooses to not be a resident, why do they think they should get a resident FCCL?

 

I am ex military by the way, so I have no beef. This just sounds like a "you want your cake and eat it too" situation.

Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

The vast majority of military members are public servants of the truest nature and are dedicated to serving their nation and communities without expectation of "special treatment." I doubt it matters tremendously to most of us if we are classified as residents or non-residents, as long as we can at least achieve a minimum ability to exercise our 2A rights as our next-door neighbors and friends are able to do. Allowing us to apply at resident rates would be a nice courtesy, but at least allow us to apply!

 

Forcing a military member to declare residency in their current state of assignment just to be able to bear arms is an absurd expectation. In fact, the mere fact that ANY non-resident is prohibited from carrying here is absurd... but when you pay rent here, kids attend the local school, and pour billions into the economy (Scott AFB alone has an annual economic impact of $3 billion), one would think a simple courtesy to allow military members to conceal carry would be a given.

 

Over 10 assignments in 7 different states in 25 years, maintaining a consistent state of residence has been very helpful for me personally, and in fact Congress established provisions allowing that "anchor" recognizing the many complications we face when moving frequently and often with little notice or choice of location. A member's state of residence is NOT supposed to be driven by tax advantages, ability to obtain a CCL, or anything else--it is supposed to be, whenever possible, based on the location to which that member intends to establish permanent domicile upon separation or retirement from the military.

 

I like to have and eat cake but would certainly settle for some healthy fruits, vegetables, and a right to bear arms.

 

 

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

Imo, it is much simpler than this. It is understandable if a state won't issue any nonresident permits/licenses, such as California. However, Illinois screwed up with the "substantially similar" statute. The statute didn't dictate what "substantially similar" meant. ISP chose those requirements, yet won't claim responsibility for it. Because ISP has indicated at least 1 state that has met the "substantially similar" classification it has not only opened itself up to a lawsuit, but the entire state [government] too. This is a lawsuit that needs to happen. Posner's ruling didn't specify residents only. The Shepard ruling would easily be used to support this case.

 

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

[domin8]

 

 

If they can get a FOID card, they should be able to get a CCL as well. Working on this.

 

Ouch! Statements like this make it hard to support IC, et al.

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

 

 

 

 

 

What is wrong with this statement? The state trusts our military with a FOID card, purchasing, owning, and using a firearm in IL, why on earth shouldn't the state trust our military with carrying it wherever they have a legal right to be?

I'm not military. I'm a military spouse (and veteran). The state views me as not being able to obtain a FOID. I should be allowed to obtain a FCCL too.

 

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

[Molly B.]

I thought the service personnel civil rights act included spouses and children?

[transplant]

Does the digital ID requirement go away with paper applications?

[kwc]

If they can get a FOID card, they should be able to get a CCL as well. Working on this.Ouch! Statements like this make it hard to support IC, et al.

"The patriot's blood is the seed of Freedom's tree." -Thomas Campbell

 

I like vanilla ice cream and I like French vanilla ice cream. If I make a statement that "I like vanilla ice cream," French vanilla ice cream need not be offended--that wasn't the focus nor the context of my statement.

[kwc]

I thought the service personnel civil rights act included spouses and children?

 

Yes, but unfortunately IL law hasn't caught up to that fact yet and IL won't issue FOID cards to non-resident spouses.