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#1 ThePuzzledGunner

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 08:21 PM

So i guess pretty soon a carry license will be excepted in every state. So if i got an Arizona out of state ccw will i be able to carry here in Illinois?

#2 Brownshoe

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 08:26 PM

So i guess pretty soon a carry license will be excepted in every state. So if i got an Arizona out of state ccw will i be able to carry here in Illinois?

 

There is a lot of discussion on this in threads in the National politics forum but three points:

 

1) As the House bill is written, yes, you would.

2) The bill is not likely to make it out of the Senate, so don't expect anything to actually change.

3) The Senate may very well adjust the bill to make #1 not true.



#3 soundguy

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 08:36 PM

Looking at the text of the House Bill, I would say NO, an Arizona permit will not allow an Illinois resident to carry in Illinois.
 

 

Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (B)) and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State that—

 

 

Only an Illinois license allows any person to carry in Illinois.


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#4 Brownshoe

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 08:42 PM

This has been discussed a lot. The wisdom is that you will, as of now. See this post:

 

http://illinoiscarry...64281&p=1118253

 

Also, the bill's author said that was the intent.



#5 Quiet Observer

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 08:59 PM

I think that the wording of the bill is ambivalent.  It does not specifically state that one most be licensed in one's state of residence (or live in a state where licensure is not required).  Nor does it  specifically state that a license from other then one's state of residence must be recognized for the holder by all other states.  For example, Michigan recognizes the licenses of all other states, but only residential licenses of the holder, i.e. a Utah license held by an Illinois resident is not accepted in Michigan.  This bill may have a similar intention, maybe not.

 

As others have stated, much depends on what happens in the Senate and the conference committee that drafts the final bill. 

 

 

 

§ 926D. Reciprocity for the carrying of certain concealed firearms

“(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (B)) and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State that—

“(1) has a statute under which residents of the State may apply for a license or permit to carry a concealed firearm; or

“(2) does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms by residents of the State for lawful purposes.



#6 soundguy

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:14 PM

It seemed pretty crystal clear to me...

 

A Michigander would need a Michigan permit, just like those from Illinois need an Illinois license. I do not recall if ANY state will allow it's residents to carry on a permit from a different state.
 

 

Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection ( :cool:) and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State that—

 

 


Edited by soundguy, 06 December 2017 - 09:17 PM.

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#7 BobPistol

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:24 PM

 

 

How about the 13 constitutional carry states?

I do not recall if ANY state will allow it's residents to carry on a permit from a different state.

 

Edited by BobPistol, 06 December 2017 - 09:27 PM.

The Second Amendment of the Constitution protects the rest.

#8 geomick

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:28 PM

 

It seemed pretty crystal clear to me...

 

A Michigander would need a Michigan permit, just like those from Illinois need an Illinois license. I do not recall if ANY state will allow it's residents to carry on a permit from a different state.
 

 

Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection ( :cool:) and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State that—

 

 

 

 

I do not believe you are interpreting the effect of the "or" correctly. It is "(a+b) or (c)" not "(a+b+c)".


Edited by geomick, 06 December 2017 - 09:29 PM.


#9 kwc

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:33 PM

 I do not recall if ANY state will allow it's residents to carry on a permit from a different state.


At present, a number of states do allow this. Ohio is one I am most familiar with.
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#10 soundguy

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:47 PM

Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection ( :cool:) and subject only to the requirements of this section,

 

a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm,

 

who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person,

and who is carrying a valid license or permit

   which is issued pursuant to the law of a State

   and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm

   or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm

in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State that—

 

 

Yeah... I'm changing to "as poorly written as 2A". The or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm is a "Vermont Clause" and in the State in which the person resides, is intended to affect the permit you can carry under or the "Vermont Clause".

 

 

I can't imagine the goal is to dismantle the permit systems of any state. Sorry to disturb you all... back to bed.

 

 


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#11 RoadyRunner

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 06:33 PM

Looking at the text of the House Bill, I would say NO, an Arizona permit will not allow an Illinois resident to carry in Illinois.
 

 

Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection ( :cool:) and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State that—

 

 

Only an Illinois license allows any person to carry in Illinois.

 

I think you are missing an important OR

 

Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection ( :cool:) and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State that—

 

An Illinois resident possessing a florida non-resident license would qualify under "a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm"


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#12 cybermgk

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 06:57 PM

Looking at the text of the House Bill, I would say NO, an Arizona permit will not allow an Illinois resident to carry in Illinois.
 

 

Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection ( :cool:) and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State that—

 

 

Only an Illinois license allows any person to carry in Illinois.

You're misreading that imho.

 

It states that (1st part) you have a valid concealed carry license issued by some state OR (2nd part) your state that you reside in allows concealed carry without a license.  


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#13 cybermgk

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 07:01 PM

I think that the wording of the bill is ambivalent.  It does not specifically state that one most be licensed in one's state of residence (or live in a state where licensure is not required).  Nor does it  specifically state that a license from other then one's state of residence must be recognized for the holder by all other states.  For example, Michigan recognizes the licenses of all other states, but only residential licenses of the holder, i.e. a Utah license held by an Illinois resident is not accepted in Michigan.  This bill may have a similar intention, maybe not.

 

As others have stated, much depends on what happens in the Senate and the conference committee that drafts the final bill. 

 

 

 

§ 926D. Reciprocity for the carrying of certain concealed firearms

“(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection ( :cool:) and subject only to the requirements of this section, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State that—

“(1) has a statute under which residents of the State may apply for a license or permit to carry a concealed firearm; or

“(2) does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms by residents of the State for lawful purposes.

See as written it seems clear to me.  Either you have an actual license from a state, OR your state allows you to carry.  In those of us with an Ill carry, that means they are both the same actually. 

 

But, as mentioned, I suspect, IF it makes it out of the Senate, at a minimum, it will be changed to (If your state requires a license, you must be licensed in that state). 


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#14 Quiet Observer

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:09 PM

 

See as written it seems clear to me.  Either you have an actual license from a state, OR your state allows you to carry.  In those of us with an Ill carry, that means they are both the same actually. 

 

What is clear to you, that if you have a CC license from any state (regardless of residency) your license would be recognized in all states, or that you must be licensed by your state of residency for your license to be recognized by all other states?

 

This is what Representative Martha Robey ® of Alabama wrote on Twitter.  She took part in the debate on the bill and would surely know what was intended. 

 

Rep. Martha RobyVerified account @RepMarthaRoby
Follow Follow @RepMarthaRoby
More

The bill ensures all law-abiding Americans who qualify for concealed carry permits in their state can exercise their 2A rights in any state. It also ensures that our National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, is enforced and working properly.

12:01 PM - 6 Dec 2017
 
As you point out, much depends on what happens in the Senate.

Edited by Quiet Observer, 07 December 2017 - 09:11 PM.


#15 Tommy6862

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:50 PM

Nothings gonna happen. they are just testing the waters. it wont pass the senate.



#16 RoadyRunner

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 08:56 AM

Latest action on the bill...

 

Senate Received in the Senate and Read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

Ahh, yes. The 'Committee on the Judiciary'. 

 

According to GovTrack.us - the bill has a 39% chance of being enacted...

 

https://www.govtrack.../bills/115/hr38


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#17 kwc

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 09:53 AM

This is what Representative Martha Robey ® of Alabama wrote on Twitter.  She took part in the debate on the bill and would surely know what was intended. 

 

Rep. Martha RobyVerified account @RepMarthaRoby
Follow Follow @RepMarthaRoby
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The bill ensures all law-abiding Americans who qualify for concealed carry permits in their state can exercise their 2A rights in any state. It also ensures that our National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, is enforced and working properly.

12:01 PM - 6 Dec 2017

 

There was a LOT of misinformation being shared during debate. Most from the Ds, but some from the Rs, too.

 

I defer to Rep Hudson's own interpretation. Alan Gottleib (Second Amendment Foundation) carries a lot of credibility in my mind, too.


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#18 Xwing

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 10:06 AM

 

 

According to GovTrack.us - the bill has a 39% chance of being enacted...

 

https://www.govtrack.../bills/115/hr38

 

Interesting to know.  This bill has a definite uphill battle in the Senate.  I can't imagine that even if they watered it down a bit (e.g. required a permit from YOUR state as being discussed above), they could get enough Democrats to vote yes. 


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#19 OldMarineVet

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 10:51 AM

deleted

Edited by OldMarineVet, 08 December 2017 - 12:02 PM.


#20 ThePuzzledGunner

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:50 PM

Ok now if it does end up being like "The bill ensures all law-abiding Americans who qualify for concealed carry permits in their state can exercise their 2A rights in any state", say if i moved to indiana and obtained a ccw there then moved back to Illinois, would my old ccw from indiana stay valid in Illinois becuase i was a resident of indiana or would i have to reapply in Illinois once i move back?

Just looking for possible loophole. Voluntarily went to rehab last year becuase of a drinking problem, been clean ever since but lost my 2a rights for 5 years in the process. My buddy lives in indiana and never had a problem getting a ccw after rehab.

#21 kwc

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 01:16 PM

Ok now if it does end up being like "The bill ensures all law-abiding Americans who qualify for concealed carry permits in their state can exercise their 2A rights in any state", say if i moved to indiana and obtained a ccw there then moved back to Illinois, would my old ccw from indiana stay valid in Illinois becuase i was a resident of indiana or would i have to reapply in Illinois once i move back?

Just looking for possible loophole. Voluntarily went to rehab last year becuase of a drinking problem, been clean ever since but lost my 2a rights for 5 years in the process. My buddy lives in indiana and never had a problem getting a ccw after rehab.

 

It would be up to the state that issued your permit. If Indiana cancels an issued license to carry when their resident moves out of the state, then you would no longer have one.


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#22 Liberty4IL

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 03:31 PM

https://www.conceale...ry-reciprocity/

#23 Gamma

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 03:49 PM

http://illinoiscarry...64281&p=1119582

All discussed here.

The current wording allows carry in any state on any state's permit/license regardless of residence, OR, if the person's home state does not require a permit then no permit is needed. Partly this is a response to Obergefell which established just this kind of legal doctrine.

That is the legislative intent. An amendment was introduced to change that to require residents to have their own state's permit, and that amendment was defeated, so the legislative intent is clear and documented.

Whether the bill remains that way through the rest of the process is unknown, but that is where it is now.

I understand the sentiment behind the provision and support the idea, but I fear that the courts would use that to throw out the law as it being too intrusive into intrastate matters. But as I've also mentioned before, this ground has already been trod with LEOSA.

Edited by Gamma, 08 December 2017 - 03:51 PM.

Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#24 kwc

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:49 PM

https://www.conceale...ry-reciprocity/


Use caution when reading that page. There are a few misrepresentations. For instance, the site says SCOTUS ruled that each “state has to allow citizens some legal method to carry a concealed handgun for self-defense.” Not true. I caught a couple of other things, too, but won’t go into those here.
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#25 Quiet Observer

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 08:40 PM

 

 

There was a LOT of misinformation being shared during debate. Most from the Ds, but some from the Rs, too.

 

I defer to Rep Hudson's own interpretation. Alan Gottleib (Second Amendment Foundation) carries a lot of credibility in my mind, too.

 

Then Representative Hudson should have included a phrase in the bill stating, "holding a license from his or her own state or from another state", or something similar.  Then there would be not need for a court to decide legislative intent.  It would be spelled out in the legislation.  Hopefully it will be clarified in the Senate.  

 

A point of confusion that I see is states that do not require permits at all for anyone.  That seems to indicate that H.R. 38 would eliminate the need for anyone in any state to have a license.  If Illinois would have to recognize my Florida non-resident permit, then it would have to allow anyone (with few excepts e.g. convicted felons) to carry here by virtue of the right recognized by concealed carry states, e.g. Alaska, Vermont, etc.  

 

I do not claim to know the definitive interpretation of the bill as it stands. 



#26 kwc

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 05:32 AM

"...from his or her own state or from another state..."


Yes, that would certainly be more clear than stating “...from a State...”

The current phrasing has caused a lot of confusion.
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#27 kwc

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 05:45 AM

By the way, a representative from California attempted to amend H.R. 38 in the Rules Committee to prevent forum shopping. She wanted to change "a State" to "the State in which a person resides." (@Gamma alluded to this in his post #23 above.)

See here:

https://amendments-r...71229372937.pdf

You can see the full list of proposed amendments and their descriptions at this link:

https://rules.house.gov/bill/115/hr-38


Edited by kwc, 09 December 2017 - 06:05 AM.

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#28 lockman

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 06:40 AM

https://www.conceale...ry-reciprocity/

Use caution when reading that page. There are a few misrepresentations. For instance, the site says SCOTUS ruled that each “state has to allow citizens some legal method to carry a concealed handgun for self-defense.” Not true. I caught a couple of other things, too, but won’t go into those here.


The dicta in Heller and McDonald certainly point to that but they don’t specify method or manor.


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#29 RoadyRunner

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 04:53 PM

Latest action on the bill...

 

Senate Received in the Senate and Read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary. 

Ahh, yes. The 'Committee on the Judiciary'. 

 

According to GovTrack.us - the bill has a 39% chance of being enacted...

 

https://www.govtrack.../bills/115/hr38

 

GovTrack.us is now reporting a 54% chance of being enacted...  


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#30 Brownshoe

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:40 AM

 

 

 

GovTrack.us is now reporting a 54% chance of being enacted...  

 

 

I'm not certain of the methodology employed by GovTrack, but I think it is a text parsing / keyword method, meaning that because it has guns in it, it is less likely to be enacted. I don't think GovTrack is actually doing any work to get to this number.

 

Factors considered:

The overall text of the bill decreases its chances of being enacted. The bill's primary sponsor is from the state/territory: NC. The bill's primary sponsor is a Republican. The bill is assigned to the Senate Judiciary committee. There is 1 related bill in Congress. The bill's primary subject is Crime and law enforcement.






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