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Man accidentally shoots himself during concealed-carry class


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#1 ScottFM

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 11:04 AM

I wonder if he failed the class? 

 

http://www.pantagrap...e87dd092fa.html

 

https://www.usnews.c...imself-in-thigh

 

"The owner of a central Illinois gun store says a man taking a concealed-carry class at his business was injured when he accidentally shot himself in the leg.

The (Bloomington) Pantagraph reports that the shooting happened on Thursday at C.I. Shooting Sports in Normal.

Business owner Stephen Stewart says the man was taking the course that's required by state law when the gun discharged as he took it out of a holster."

 


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#2 WitchDoctor

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 11:20 AM

Another reminder to stay safe when using firearms. No excuses for ND's.


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#3 chicagoresident

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 11:24 AM

Business owner Stephen Stewart says the man was taking the course that's required by state law when the gun discharged as he took it out of a holster.

A question for CCW instructors, do you guys teach holstering and unholstering with live ammo?

This seems a little advanced for the basic required class.

I'll withhold total accusations until all details are in, but it doesn't sound like the gun discharged while unholstering. It sounds like an inexperienced shooter pulled the trigger while unholstering.

I've heard of guns going off while holstering so that's a little more accidental (but still avoidable). Most guns won't go off anymore if you catch a hammer, unless it was a really old revolver. Just floating ideas how a gun can fire without pulling the trigger while unholstering.

Edited by chicagoresident, 09 February 2018 - 11:29 AM.


#4 RandyP

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 11:40 AM

He's "lucky" he was using a .22LR at the time. Still NO excuse for an ND. At my class we in fact did VERY little holster work.



#5 danbrew

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 11:42 AM

 

Business owner Stephen Stewart says the man was taking the course that's required by state law when the gun discharged as he took it out of a holster.

A question for CCW instructors, do you guys teach holstering and unholstering with live ammo?

 

No chance.  In fact, I'd question whether holster work is even a part of the required training.  Now before all of the rest of you jump down my throat, go look at the ILCS.  It doesn't say anything about holster work.  I realize that most of us probably do teach that, especially because a lot of the courseware includes it.  And you've got 16 hours... lol.  Completely as an aside, there are a ton of instructors out there who feel they have to beef up the syllabus - it's not unheard of to hear stuff like this:  "I'm not teaching a man to carry a gun unless he can do the Mozambique triple dog dare double roll". Screw that, I teach what is required by law.  Period.  No more, no less.

 

Two words could have prevented this - Blue Gun.  I probably have 30 different blue guns and their associated holster to use in the classroom.  No freaken' way would I do holster work with a group with real guns.  And the ammo part? That's just a massive failure all the way around.


Edited by danbrew, 09 February 2018 - 11:44 AM.


#6 soundguy

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 11:56 AM

No chance.  In fact, I'd question whether holster work is even a part of the required training.

 

Holster work is not part of the required curriculum.

 

I think it would work better as an entirely separate course. Perhaps something a student does while waiting for the license to arrive. By practicing safely at home I am aware that I will never present quickly from deep concealment...


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#7 Trevis

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:03 PM

Did holster work in our classes. The instructors made very very very clear that there was to be no live ammo in the room. Every firearm was checked and checked again. We did dry fire.

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#8 mic6010

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:32 PM

We did dry fire holster work with training pistols. And it was very much appreciated by everyone it seemed as most of the class had zero experience with firearms.

I don't know if I would feel comfortable with a bunch of beginners live fire holster drawing though. Seems dangerous. Something that should be practiced a great many times with unloaded guns before you switch to loaded ones imo.

Of course even people with lots of experience shoot themselves trying to un-holster or re-holster.  Murphy's law and all that.


Edited by mic6010, 09 February 2018 - 12:33 PM.

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#9 ScottFM

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:41 PM

I honestly cannot remember if we did or did not do any holster work. I had previously carried a gun and was trained in holstering so even if we had done it, for me, it was just a review. 


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#10 Frank

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:56 PM

I don't know when it changed, but drawing a firearm from a holster was required by ISP to be part of any approved curriculum when they first approved instructors and curriculums. I think CLIC still includes it. But somewhere along the line, I think ISP dropped this requirement.

 

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#11 TRJ

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:59 PM

I took an early class. We spent some time drawing from the holster. We also did live fire contact shooting drills. My instructor wanted to turn out students with a basic skill set, not just a minimum bases covered certificate.

#12 InterestedBystander

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:23 PM

I took an early class. We spent some time drawing from the holster. We also did live fire contact shooting drills. My instructor wanted to turn out students with a basic skill set, not just a minimum bases covered certificate.


We did blue SIRT OWB drills in the classroom. At the range we did some extra e.g. double + triple taps iirc before shooting for score. The plan was to also do some live fire holster/training/drills after range closed to public but our class got booted by someone else with more "influence."

Edited by InterestedBystander, 09 February 2018 - 11:18 PM.

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#13 RandyP

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:30 PM

I would add that curriculum choices by instructors and ND's aside, I'm sure I'm not alone in being displeased that I have to take ANY kind of class or pass a test to enjoy a Constitutional Right.



#14 NRApistol

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:34 PM

I don't know when it changed, but drawing a firearm from a holster was required by ISP to be part of any approved curriculum when they first approved instructors and curriculums. I think CLIC still includes it. But somewhere along the line, I think ISP dropped this requirement.

 

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I think you`re wrong on this one.  Danbrew hit the nail on the head.  Holster work should be taught by certified holster instructors ONLY.


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#15 C0untZer0

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:59 PM

Aren't Holster Instructors certified by the Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation ?


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#16 NRApistol

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 02:07 PM

 NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home is all holster work as is NRA Defensive Pistol, both are taught by NRA certified instructors. 


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#17 gangrel

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 02:15 PM

I don't know when it changed, but drawing a firearm from a holster was required by ISP to be part of any approved curriculum when they first approved instructors and curriculums. I think CLIC still includes it. But somewhere along the line, I think ISP dropped this requirement.
 
-- Frank

I was one of the first instructors approved by ISP. The guidelines never required having students perform holster work, certainly not live fire from holster. The requirement is and always was that Firearms Handling include Handgun Fundamentals and Handgun Concealment. Now, some take "Handgun Concealment" to mean presenting from holster. I teach this with unloaded and safed pistols or training guns. But drawing is not required. This is done above and beyond the minimum requirements.

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#18 Frank

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 05:48 PM

I was one of the first instructors approved by ISP. The guidelines never required having students perform holster work, certainly not live fire from holster. The requirement is and always was that Firearms Handling include Handgun Fundamentals and Handgun Concealment. Now, some take "Handgun Concealment" to mean presenting from holster. I teach this with unloaded and safed pistols or training guns. But drawing is not required. This is done above and beyond the minimum requirements.

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I agree, that LIVE FIRE from a holster was never included in the requirements. I also teach it with unloaded pistols (or training pistols) in a safe environment. 

 

I don't know if I can attach this PDF, but I have a copy of the original Emergency Rules published by ISP. In it, it says:

 

 

"Weapon Handling Instruction" means, at a minimum:

 

     dry fire practice drills - 

 

          handgun fundamentals;

 

          dry fire practice drills from concealment; and

 

     live fire practice drills - 

 

          handgun fundamentals;

 

          live fire qualification with a concealable firearm consisting of a minimum

          of 30 rounds and 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards, 10 rounds from a

          distance of 7 yards and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27

          silhouette target.

 

 

 

-- Frank

 

 

ETA: Here's the thread that discusses the first curriculum requirements, including a copy of the form outlining curriculum requirements.

 

http://illinoiscarry...=40899&p=554465

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Edited by Frank, 09 February 2018 - 06:23 PM.

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#19 Frank

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 06:00 PM

 

I don't know when it changed, but drawing a firearm from a holster was required by ISP to be part of any approved curriculum when they first approved instructors and curriculums. I think CLIC still includes it. But somewhere along the line, I think ISP dropped this requirement.

 

-- Frank

I think you`re wrong on this one.  Danbrew hit the nail on the head.  Holster work should be taught by certified holster instructors ONLY.

 

 

What is a "certified holster instructor?" If you mean PPOH or security/law enforcement instructor, I understand what you mean. There was quite the heated discussion about this four and a half years ago when these requirements came out. I think this is probably why ISP eventually dropped the requirement.

 

-- Frank


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#20 NRApistol

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 06:21 PM

 

I was one of the first instructors approved by ISP. The guidelines never required having students perform holster work, certainly not live fire from holster. The requirement is and always was that Firearms Handling include Handgun Fundamentals and Handgun Concealment. Now, some take "Handgun Concealment" to mean presenting from holster. I teach this with unloaded and safed pistols or training guns. But drawing is not required. This is done above and beyond the minimum requirements.

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I agree, that LIVE FIRE from a holster was never included in the requirements. I also teach it with unloaded pistols (or training pistols) in a safe environment. 

 

I don't know if I can attach this PDF, but I have a copy of the original Emergency Rules published by ISP. In it, it says:

 

 

"Weapon Handling Instruction" means, at a minimum:

 

     dry fire practice drills - 

 

          handgun fundamentals;

 

          dry fire practice drills from concealment; and

 

     live fire practice drills - 

 

          handgun fundamentals;

 

          live fire qualification with a concealable firearm consisting of a minimum

          of 30 rounds and 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards, 10 rounds from a

          distance of 7 yards and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27

          silhouette target.

 

 

 

-- Frank

 

Frank, I see your point, but the early requirement was from concealment.  I can conceal a firearm in a brief case, purse, console, ect.  It was such a vague requirement and an attempt of regulators trying to be instructors.  BUT it did not say you must teach holster skills.  Unskilled teaching unskilled is a ND waiting to happen. 


Edited by NRApistol, 09 February 2018 - 06:29 PM.

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#21 Tolak

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 07:01 PM

In my class we had a total of five students including myself.  A couple were similar to me, into firearms, reloading & such. One guy had previous military experience, another was green as can be.  We had 3 classes of 4 hours each in the evening, one final 4 hour class with range time on the weekend.  The last evening session covered grip & stance, some tap rack bang drills with dummy rounds; no live ammo present, firearms triple checked, and taught how to check a variety of side arms.  The weekend range day was where drawing from a holster was covered, once again unloaded & ammo free environment, with more grip & stance work.  The live fire portion did not include drawing a hot firearm.

 

Years back I took the auto pistol I & II classes at Midwest in Lyons, did their weekly combat shoot which I believe was Thursday night.  The two classes started with the usual safety & marksmanship, progressing to drawing, barricade shooting, off hand shooting, multiple targets shoot & don't shoot.  Being on my way home from work it was my usual night out.  The classes were a prerequisite for attending their combat shoot.  The class instructors ran the shoot, very much an ongoing educational experience. 

 

I believe this is where drawing from a holster should start.  The CCL curriculum is very much like driver's ed; real strong on safety, making sure you know the basics of operating a specific piece of equipment in a safe & competent manner.  Neither prepares you for dealing with the curve balls life may throw at you.  That aspect of more involved learning is on the individual.  With a proper instructor they're geared towards getting folks up to speed with that aspect.  The instructors in my CCL class made that a strong point.  The aspect of safe & effective holster draw & fire on out is more of a one on one teaching experience.



#22 InterestedBystander

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 07:09 PM

I don't know when it changed, but drawing a firearm from a holster was required by ISP to be part of any approved curriculum when they first approved instructors and curriculums. I think CLIC still includes it. But somewhere along the line, I think ISP dropped this requirement.
 
-- Frank

I think you`re wrong on this one.  Danbrew hit the nail on the head.  Holster work should be taught by certified holster instructors ONLY.
 
What is a "certified holster instructor?" If you mean PPOH or security/law enforcement instructor, I understand what you mean. There was quite the heated discussion about this four and a half years ago when these requirements came out. I think this is probably why ISP eventually dropped the requirement.
 
-- Frank
I looked up my instructor's info on the IDFPR site and his active license description is "ORIGINAL FIREARMS TRAINING". Is that an FCCL approved trainer description or something else?

Edited by InterestedBystander, 09 February 2018 - 07:10 PM.

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#23 djmarkla

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 07:39 PM

In our ccw class we did trigger time and holster work with SIRT PISTOLS. I usually try anything I haven't trained on before with a SITRT until I feel comfortable and then move to an unloaded firearm.

#24 Frank

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 09:51 PM

In our ccw class we did trigger time and holster work with SIRT PISTOLS. I usually try anything I haven't trained on before with a SITRT until I feel comfortable and then move to an unloaded firearm.

 

That's probably not a bad idea at all. The laser in the SIRT can help you be a little more muzzle-conscious. Don't be afraid to seek out a trainer, either. You never know how much you don't know. A LITTLE BIT of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

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#25 Frank

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 09:57 PM

 

 

 

I looked up my instructor's info on the IDFPR site and his active license description is "ORIGINAL FIREARMS TRAINING". Is that an FCCL approved trainer description or something else?

 

 

That's something else. On my record, it's my original firearms training certificate for armed security.

 

-- Frank


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#26 wtr100

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 08:13 PM

 

No chance.  In fact, I'd question whether holster work is even a part of the required training.

 

Holster work is not part of the required curriculum.

 

I think it would work better as an entirely separate course. Perhaps something a student does while waiting for the license to arrive. By practicing safely at home I am aware that I will never present quickly from deep concealment...

 

 

 

it occurs to me it's irresponsible to sign off on a student who has not drawn and live fired from the holster 


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#27 Mr. Fife

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 08:44 PM

I cover drawing from concealment, but it's done in the classroom without live ammunition. I have lots of videos that cover the same points, clearing cover garment, aquiring grip, high ready, punch out at target, 360 before reholstering etc. Videos are with different cover gar.ents and videos are of men, women, and drawing from different locations, hip, appendix, ankle, etc. Everyone must try, usually many times, and the other students critique. What usually happens is everyone ends up realizing that it takes lots of practice and won't be mastered in couple of hours. It's generally well received and eye opening to those who think having the license is enough.
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#28 djmarkla

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 09:45 PM

In our ccw class we did trigger time and holster work with SIRT PISTOLS. I usually try anything I haven't trained on before with a SITRT until I feel comfortable and then move to an unloaded firearm.

 
That's probably not a bad idea at all. The laser in the SIRT can help you be a little more muzzle-conscious. Don't be afraid to seek out a trainer, either. You never know how much you don't know. A LITTLE BIT of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
 
-- Frank
Ihave taken classes after the Illinois required course. When I get home to practice on my own I go over everything using my SIRT pistol first. I wasn't comfortable the first time an instructor had us working position Sul. I did the class using low ready. When I got home I grabbed the SIRT and practiced until it became natural and comfortable. I actually enjoy classes because of the freedom to practice the things you don't get to do on most ranges.

Edited by djmarkla, 10 February 2018 - 09:47 PM.


#29 NRApistol

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 09:49 PM

 

 

No chance.  In fact, I'd question whether holster work is even a part of the required training.

 

Holster work is not part of the required curriculum.

 

I think it would work better as an entirely separate course. Perhaps something a student does while waiting for the license to arrive. By practicing safely at home I am aware that I will never present quickly from deep concealment...

 

 

 

it occurs to me it's irresponsible to sign off on a student who has not drawn and live fired from the holster 

 

it occurs to me it's irresponsible to sign off on a teaching a skill an instructor is not qualified to teach. A responsible instructor would have taken the time and effort to acquire the proper training to teach the skill. 


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#30 chicagoresident

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 01:18 AM

it occurs to me it's irresponsible to sign off on a student who has not drawn and live fired from the holster

it occurs to me it's irresponsible to sign off on a teaching a skill an instructor is not qualified to teach. A responsible instructor would have taken the time and effort to acquire the proper training to teach the skill. 

Agreed.

Beyond teaching the basics which may or may not sink in you're not going to make anyone a better shot or a safer gun owner in 16 hours. But every instructor should emphasize that safety and competence in holstering and shooting takes a lifetime of practice. Some will continue to practice and take follow-up courses and some won't.

This is the problem with forcing the basic required class on everyone. You're going to get a wide range of comfort and competence levels.

You're going to get the EDC lifestyle people and the talisman of protection people that think keeping a gun untouched in the center console will ward off evil.

It's the same types of people in states where no training is required to get a permit, which is why I argue against mandatory training altogether. I don't question people's reasons and manner of carry, the fact that there isn't blood on the streets points that even the incompetent are exercising a reasonable level of competence with firearms. With or without training.

People actually fail the shooting portion, I've never seen it but I hear it happens more then we'd think. Probably from test anxiety, flinching, or overall nervousness around guns. Do you really trust that person to remember to keep their finger off the trigger drawing?

I think it's pretty reckless to teach live fire holstering when there will be a percentage of your class that isn't even getting the license to carry holstered. And some after taking the class may make the decision to forgo carrying altogether.

The basic class really only needs to exist due to how complex our Illinois legal system is towards gun rights. Which shouldn't be a reason...

Edited by chicagoresident, 11 February 2018 - 01:30 AM.





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