Now they are gonna screw up Target

[BIGDEESUL]

I was going to ask when this happened and when those pictures were taken.

 

I support all carry and all gun rights. Obviously what the Chipotle guys did was stupid, and OCT needs to re-think their tactics so they're not looked at in the same way. Lay low for a while.

 

Kurt, just out of curiosity, why are you such a huge advocate for open carry? Is it comfort? The view that it may prevent you being attacked if the gun is visible? Is it just because you're a showoff?

 

It seems like most of the vocal open carry supporters I've talked to just want to show off. Not accusing you of that, and if you do just want to show off, hey, it's a free country. But that doesn't seem like a very good reason to be carrying a gun in the first place.

 

It should be legal to open carry any firearm nationwide. I'm sure everyone can agree on that, but cmon. AR's in target? Whether it happened this week or last year, there's no reason for stuff like that.

 

[C0untZer0]

Ya - that guy in Target, with the beard and an AR slung over his shoulder, how do we know that's not really a woman?

[Elmer Fudd]

How do we know MDA is not behind these OC protests?

The two guys form the photo in Chipotle create an image that is about as helpful as us using the Taliban in our marketing efforts......I wlll say it again.....when a group like OC Texas decides FOR SELFISH local reasons to undertake an action that impacts all of us nationally that is a problem. When these crackpots give ammo to people like Dan Kotowski it harms us more than MDA ever could....welcome to being our own worst enemies.

[clamzo]

These guys are the Westboro Church of the 2nd amendment :/

[kurt555gs]

Open carry let's me have the gun I like the best with me in comfort. I hate IWB holsters, I don't care about " tactical advantage " I have no wish to sweat in a cover garment and I think open carry is just more honest. I have never liked being sneaky. So I can be comfy in hot weather carrying my N Frame .44 Magnum S&W revolver instead of hiding a little .380 in my pocket which I wouldn't want to do anyway.

 

And I don't like being forced to conceal when "Bear Arms" means open carry.

 

Kurt on G+ http://goo.gl/EX4gL2

 

[asfried1]

If this is a false flag operation we need proof and publicity. If it isn't, we have a problem on our hands. My pro-2A credentials are pretty well established but if these jerks showed up at my place of business I'd ban guns from the premises too. Also, if I saw these people walking down the aisle like this at my local Target, I'd grab my kids and immediately back out via the nearest emergency exit. Idiots.

[Elmer Fudd]

There is nothing sneaky about concealed carry. I certainly don't find anything sneaky about the exercise of the right of self protection when it is needed. However, I also believe that we need to be considerate of the rights of others.......I certainly realize that there is a group of people that will never be comfortable around firearms....and they are going to have to live with respecting our rights. However, there is no reason that we should be going out of our way to make them any more uncomfortable then they have to be. There is no legit reason to need a long gun when you are grocery shopping. An individual's personal comfort is not a justification to permit open carry....its an expression of "its all about me" that doesn't serve us well.

[miztic]

If this is a false flag operation we need proof and publicity. If it isn't, we have a problem on our hands. My pro-2A credentials are pretty well established but if these jerks showed up at my place of business I'd ban guns from the premises too. Also, if I saw these people walking down the aisle like this at my local Target, I'd grab my kids and immediately back out via the nearest emergency exit. Idiots.

 

People carrying rifles don't scare me, I certainly wouldn't leave, unless perhaps they were flagging people all over the place.

 

Even if we could confirm it was a false flag, what do you do about it? The store owner still doesn't want people carrying ARs, regardless if it's occupy dirtbags or OCT members.

[kurt555gs]

I personally won't carry a rifle into a restaurant because it's just rude. But "permit" open carry? You have been living in Illinois to long. Open carry shouldn't require any permit or training or anything. Period. Read the second Amendment again. Open carry is pretty much covered there.

 

Kurt on G+ http://goo.gl/EX4gL2

 

 

[asfried1]

There is nothing sneaky about concealed carry. I certainly don't find anything sneaky about the exercise of the right of self protection when it is needed. However, I also believe that we need to be considerate of the rights of others.......I certainly realize that there is a group of people that will never be comfortable around firearms....and they are going to have to live with respecting our rights. However, there is no reason that we should be going out of our way to make them any more uncomfortable then they have to be. There is no legit reason to need a long gun when you are grocery shopping. An individual's personal comfort is not a justification to permit open carry....its an expression of "its all about me" that doesn't serve us well.

 

I think it's more than feelings that are the issue here. I understand concealed carry - I have a license myself. I understand open carry of handguns although I personally wouldn't be interested in revealing to a potential assailant that I am carrying a firearm. I do not understand carrying an AR-15 into target. If I encountered these people at a Target store the question I would have to ask myself is "what are they doing that for?" And I seriously wouldn't have a good answer. If I don't have a good answer, I have to assume - for my own family's safety - that they up to something nefarious. That would make me uncomfortable to the point of leaving ASAP. And how does that make the case for the second amendment??

 

And like I said earlier, if someone showed up to my place of business carrying an AR-15 I might just lock the office doors and call the cops. Because there is absolutely no good reason to be carrying an AR-15 at my business.

 

This has to absolutely panic ordinary people who are not part of the 2A movement.

[asfried1]

 

If this is a false flag operation we need proof and publicity. If it isn't, we have a problem on our hands. My pro-2A credentials are pretty well established but if these jerks showed up at my place of business I'd ban guns from the premises too. Also, if I saw these people walking down the aisle like this at my local Target, I'd grab my kids and immediately back out via the nearest emergency exit. Idiots.

 

People carrying rifles don't scare me, I certainly wouldn't leave, unless perhaps they were flagging people all over the place.

 

Even if we could confirm it was a false flag, what do you do about it? The store owner still doesn't want people carrying ARs, regardless if it's occupy dirtbags or OCT members.

 

 

People carrying rifles on a hunting trip or at the range don't scare me. People strutting down the Target aisles with rifles do. When do you decide that they are a possible threat? I would assume that anyone acting weirdly out of character for the situation is a possible threat - which describes these guys perfectly. So what if I'm wrong? I'm getting out of there immediately and I'll worry about my shopping list later.

[bcook619]

I personally won't carry a rifle into a restaurant because it's just rude. But "permit" open carry? You have been living in Illinois to long. Open carry shouldn't require any permit or training or anything. Period. Read the second Amendment again. Open carry is pretty much covered there. Kurt on G+ http://goo.gl/EX4gL2

I dont know that I would ever Open carry all out but it would be nice to be able to wear a OWB holster with a full size handgun and not worry about prining or showing or taking off my jacket. It would be a nice option. Even after a couple months and as it gets warmer I find the pocket gun much easier to conceal and more comfortable; without paranoia.

[bcook619]

 

 

If this is a false flag operation we need proof and publicity. If it isn't, we have a problem on our hands. My pro-2A credentials are pretty well established but if these jerks showed up at my place of business I'd ban guns from the premises too. Also, if I saw these people walking down the aisle like this at my local Target, I'd grab my kids and immediately back out via the nearest emergency exit. Idiots.

 

People carrying rifles don't scare me, I certainly wouldn't leave, unless perhaps they were flagging people all over the place.

 

Even if we could confirm it was a false flag, what do you do about it? The store owner still doesn't want people carrying ARs, regardless if it's occupy dirtbags or OCT members.

 

 

People carrying rifles on a hunting trip or at the range don't scare me. People strutting down the Target aisles with rifles do. When do you decide that they are a possible threat? I would assume that anyone acting weirdly out of character for the situation is a possible threat - which describes these guys perfectly. So what if I'm wrong? I'm getting out of there immediately and I'll worry about my shopping list later.

 

+1000

[BShawn]

How do we know MDA is not behind these OC protests?

 

^ THIS ^

[miztic]

 

 

If this is a false flag operation we need proof and publicity. If it isn't, we have a problem on our hands. My pro-2A credentials are pretty well established but if these jerks showed up at my place of business I'd ban guns from the premises too. Also, if I saw these people walking down the aisle like this at my local Target, I'd grab my kids and immediately back out via the nearest emergency exit. Idiots.

 

People carrying rifles don't scare me, I certainly wouldn't leave, unless perhaps they were flagging people all over the place.

 

Even if we could confirm it was a false flag, what do you do about it? The store owner still doesn't want people carrying ARs, regardless if it's occupy dirtbags or OCT members.

 

 

People carrying rifles on a hunting trip or at the range don't scare me. People strutting down the Target aisles with rifles do. When do you decide that they are a possible threat? I would assume that anyone acting weirdly out of character for the situation is a possible threat - which describes these guys perfectly. So what if I'm wrong? I'm getting out of there immediately and I'll worry about my shopping list later.

 

 

Their rifles are slung, they are obviously not a threat, once they start shouldering rifles and no bad guys in sight, THAT'S when you worry.

And frankly, I can unholster and get rounds on target much faster then anyone can shoulder a rifle that's slung on their back.

 

Also, when is the last time you saw gang bangers walk around with slung ARs? when I see one, it's a pretty safe bet you're dealing with a good guy.

[karim18]

I was going to ask when this happened and when those pictures were taken. I support all carry and all gun rights. Obviously what the Chipotle guys did was stupid, and OCT needs to re-think their tactics so they're not looked at in the same way. Lay low for a while. Kurt, just out of curiosity, why are you such a huge advocate for open carry? Is it comfort? The view that it may prevent you being attacked if the gun is visible? Is it just because you're a showoff? It seems like most of the vocal open carry supporters I've talked to just want to show off. Not accusing you of that, and if you do just want to show off, hey, it's a free country. But that doesn't seem like a very good reason to be carrying a gun in the first place. It should be legal to open carry any firearm nationwide. I'm sure everyone can agree on that, but cmon. AR's in target? Whether it happened this week or last year, there's no reason for stuff like that.

To be honest, I support Open Carry because I am tubby. It's easier when I don't have to conceal (i.e. when I am working around the house).

[borgranta]

The very purpose of a license is to permit an act that absent the permit is a crime. A fundamental right is not a crime and therefore unlicensed carry of firearms must be allowed preferably including handguns and/or long guns and/or knives and/or clubs batons etc. and/or less lethal devices.

[lockman]

I listened to oral arguments in Woollard again and one of the things Judges King and Davis said is "You can carry a a long gun, you can carry a shotgun down the street, for any reason or no reason"

 

Alan Gura responded "A long gun is not an arm that people would expect to ordinarily use for traditional self defense purposes down the street.. Nobody carries a shotgun around to defend themselves against a mugger." To which Judge Diaz replied "Well after this, they might." Alan Gura replied "That may be something the state is inviting and they may not like the results."

 

Thread winner!!!!

[Elmer Fudd]

Actually there have been at least two instances in Chicago of a gangbanger opening fire on a crowd of people on the southside with an AK-47. In at least one instance the banger was wearing body armor as well.......welcome to the zoo. Here is example with the outstanding rapper Chief Queef. http://www.tmz.com/2014/03/.../chief-keef-ak-47-guns-chicago-shooting/

 

 

 

People carrying rifles don't scare me, I certainly wouldn't leave, unless perhaps they were flagging people all over the place.

 

Even if we could confirm it was a false flag, what do you do about it? The store owner still doesn't want people carrying ARs, regardless if it's occupy dirtbags or OCT members.

 

People carrying rifles on a hunting trip or at the range don't scare me. People strutting down the Target aisles with rifles do. When do you decide that they are a possible threat? I would assume that anyone acting weirdly out of character for the situation is a possible threat - which describes these guys perfectly. So what if I'm wrong? I'm getting out of there immediately and I'll worry about my shopping list later.

 

Their rifles are slung, they are obviously not a threat, once they start shouldering rifles and no bad guys in sight, THAT'S when you worry.

And frankly, I can unholster and get rounds on target much faster then anyone can shoulder a rifle that's slung on their back.

 

Also, when is the last time you saw gang bangers walk around with slung ARs? when I see one, it's a pretty safe bet you're dealing with a good guy.

 

[lockman]

If this is a false flag operation we need proof and publicity. If it isn't, we have a problem on our hands. My pro-2A credentials are pretty well established but if these jerks showed up at my place of business I'd ban guns from the premises too. Also, if I saw these people walking down the aisle like this at my local Target, I'd grab my kids and immediately back out via the nearest emergency exit. Idiots.

 

Why ban all guns? Wouldn't banning the protesters from your premises be more appropriate?

 

Blanket bans that affect the offender and victim equally are patently offensive to our system of ordered liberty.

[borgranta]

Actually there have been at least two instances in Chicago of a gangbanger opening fire on a crowd of people on the southside with an AK-47. In at least one instance the banger was wearing body armor as well.......welcome to the zoo. Here is example with the outstanding rapper Chief Queef. http://www.tmz.com/2014/03/.../chief-keef-ak-47-guns-chicago-shooting/

 

 

 

 

 

 

People carrying rifles don't scare me, I certainly wouldn't leave, unless perhaps they were flagging people all over the place.

 

Even if we could confirm it was a false flag, what do you do about it? The store owner still doesn't want people carrying ARs, regardless if it's occupy dirtbags or OCT members.

 

 

People carrying rifles on a hunting trip or at the range don't scare me. People strutting down the Target aisles with rifles do. When do you decide that they are a possible threat? I would assume that anyone acting weirdly out of character for the situation is a possible threat - which describes these guys perfectly. So what if I'm wrong? I'm getting out of there immediately and I'll worry about my shopping list later.

 

 

Their rifles are slung, they are obviously not a threat, once they start shouldering rifles and no bad guys in sight, THAT'S when you worry.

And frankly, I can unholster and get rounds on target much faster then anyone can shoulder a rifle that's slung on their back.

 

Also, when is the last time you saw gang bangers walk around with slung ARs? when I see one, it's a pretty safe bet you're dealing with a good guy.

 

The same goes for someone carrying a shotgun.

[asfried1]

 

If this is a false flag operation we need proof and publicity. If it isn't, we have a problem on our hands. My pro-2A credentials are pretty well established but if these jerks showed up at my place of business I'd ban guns from the premises too. Also, if I saw these people walking down the aisle like this at my local Target, I'd grab my kids and immediately back out via the nearest emergency exit. Idiots.

 

Why ban all guns? Wouldn't banning the protesters from your premises be more appropriate?

 

Blanket bans that affect the offender and victim equally are patently offensive to our system of ordered liberty.

 

 

 

That was mistakenly vague of me. I meant open carry of rifles.

[borgranta]

Of the 2 guys that started all this I was most disturbed by guy that was at the low ready position without good reason since it could scare someone into thinking that he is ready to start shooting.

[Blackbeard]

Didn't California have open carry until a bunch of folks like this started oc rallies! That didn't go as planned!

 

California was legal for OC with unloaded handguns. That is until a bunch of demonstrators started OCing their unloaded handguns and scaring people. Now that's illegal too. Good job, guys.

[defaultdotxbe]

 

Didn't California have open carry until a bunch of folks like this started oc rallies! That didn't go as planned!

 

California was legal for OC with unloaded handguns. That is until a bunch of demonstrators started OCing their unloaded handguns and scaring people. Now that's illegal too. Good job, guys.

 

And because UOC was banned a judge ruled they have to issue CCLs now. So they went from unloaded open carry to loaded concealed carry.

 

I'd say they did do a good job (no sarcasm there)

[Blackbeard]

Here's the disconnect I'm seeing with the OC rifle guys. One of the tenets of carrying is that we could possibly prevent a mass shooting such as Sandy Hook or Virginia Tech if there were armed people there on the scene. We also preach situational awareness -- look for things that are out of the ordinary or unusual.

 

Now I'm hearing that if a guy walks into a Target with an AR-15, I should regard that as completely normal and pay him no more attention than the mom pushing a stroller. Really? This doesn't set off your situational awareness red alert? If this doesn't put you on high alert I'm afraid your ability to stop mass shootings is seriously compromised.

[miztic]

 

 

Didn't California have open carry until a bunch of folks like this started oc rallies! That didn't go as planned!

 

California was legal for OC with unloaded handguns. That is until a bunch of demonstrators started OCing their unloaded handguns and scaring people. Now that's illegal too. Good job, guys.

 

And because UOC was banned a judge ruled they have to issue CCLs now. So they went from unloaded open carry to loaded concealed carry.

 

I'd say they did do a good job (no sarcasm there)

 

+1 it had a positive outcome.

also CA is a terrible example, they just keep inventing new ways to restrict people's gun rights, there's no way to win over there [except maybe the courts but that remains to be seen]

[miztic]

 

Actually there have been at least two instances in Chicago of a gangbanger opening fire on a crowd of people on the southside with an AK-47. In at least one instance the banger was wearing body armor as well.......welcome to the zoo. Here is example with the outstanding rapper Chief Queef. http://www.tmz.com/2014/03/.../chief-keef-ak-47-guns-chicago-shooting/

 

 

 

Yes, but $10 says that AK didn't start out in a sling on his back, which is why I specified slung rifles in the first place.

I agree running around the target at low ready is just a jackass move and I wouldn't blame any CCWer for shooting someone who does that crap, that's like running round the store with a pistol in your hand.

To me a slung rifle is the same as a pistol in a holster.

[defaultdotxbe]

+1 it had a positive outcome.

also CA is a terrible example, they just keep inventing new ways to restrict people's gun rights, there's no way to win over there [except maybe the courts but that remains to be seen]

 

And furthermore, what good is having a right if we should be too afraid of losing it to ever exercise it?

 

I don't have a problem with people OCing rifles at Target and whatnot, but I do have to wonder what they hope to accomplish with their organized "protests" What are they protesting at places that allow carry? The whole gun issue, and especially AR and AK types are too controversial right now for people to be this "in your face" with them. I would advise the OCers to consider the possible (and probable) outcomes of their actions, and try to have a bit more tact

 

 

 

How about a protest at Buffalo Wild Wings, a few dozen people standing outside with signs reading "I'd be eating inside except I have to stay outside to exercise my rights" or something to that effect. Wouldn't even have to be an OC protest

[DoYouFeelLucky]

The NRA leadership needs to grow a pair and effectively denounce the open carry groups while also positioning a message on open carry that is understood and relevant to reasonable people. Every group and position has their radical fringe, and the 2A supporters are no different. Lord knows we've seen enough radicals on the far left side.

 

And there is little doubt that OCT is supported by the the liberals. The cohesive 2A support has been their downfall, dividing that support base is their number 1 goal.