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Cops Kill Permit Holder in Las Vegas


Gary

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The news video claims the victim (?) "lifted his shirt to display his gun to the police." Why would a permit holder do that when that's the prelude to drawing your weapon? I view that as a very dangerous act in itself.

 

The man's background certainly paints the picture of an intelligent, level headed person. Something went VERY WRONG here. Not saying it was the responding polices' fault. Indeed the video will hold many clues. I wonder if it will be released?

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The news video claims the victim (?) "lifted his shirt to display his gun to the police." Why would a permit holder do that when that's the prelude to drawing your weapon? I view that as a very dangerous act in itself.

 

The man's background certainly paints the picture of an intelligent, level headed person. Something went VERY WRONG here. Not saying it was the responding polices' fault. Indeed the video will hold many clues. I wonder if it will be released?

 

What video? :clap: :clap: :ph34r: smiliestirthepot.gif

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The news video claims the victim (?) "lifted his shirt to display his gun to the police." Why would a permit holder do that when that's the prelude to drawing your weapon? I view that as a very dangerous act in itself.

 

The man's background certainly paints the picture of an intelligent, level headed person. Something went VERY WRONG here. Not saying it was the responding polices' fault. Indeed the video will hold many clues. I wonder if it will be released?

 

What video? :clap: :clap: :ph34r: smiliestirthepot.gif

 

Uhh....the one Gary linked to in post #1.....the Youtube video.

 

That one. :ph34r:

 

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I'm not gonna second guess the cops. I want to see the vid too.

 

But it also goes to show why you need to be careful around people when you carry. We had an issues at my mom's house a couple of weeks ago. i was on my way back over to check on it after dark. I had a flashlight and was going to be looking in the windows to see if the vagrant had come back to camp out.

 

On the way I passed a county cop about 2 blocks out. SO I circled back and told him what I was going to do. He followed me and gave a kick check of the area. I didn't want skidish neighbors calling the cops and me being there with a 45 and getting the "drop the gun & put your hands up"

 

It worked out, but when you are carrying and have cops looking at you or addressing you, go slow and listen to what they are asking/telling you.

 

But the Video will show a lot from the security cameras.

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I'm not gonna second guess the cops. I want to see the vid too.

 

But it also goes to show why you need to be careful around people when you carry. We had an issues at my mom's house a couple of weeks ago. i was on my way back over to check on it after dark. I had a flashlight and was going to be looking in the windows to see if the vagrant had come back to camp out.

 

On the way I passed a county cop about 2 blocks out. SO I circled back and told him what I was going to do. He followed me and gave a kick check of the area. I didn't want skidish neighbors calling the cops and me being there with a 45 and getting the "drop the gun & put your hands up"

 

It worked out, but when you are carrying and have cops looking at you or addressing you, go slow and listen to what they are asking/telling you.

 

But the Video will show a lot from the security cameras.

Absolutely right!

Another point to be made is that "Concealed" means "CONCEALED"!

 

As misguided as the store employees may have been (and they were) if they had not seen the weapon, there would have been no problem and the police would have never been called in the first place. Admittedly, maintaining the absolute concealment of the weapon is not always easy or even possible, but this story illustrates the importance of keeping the weapon out of sight.

It should not be this way, but it is what it is.

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I wanna see the video.

 

This guy was about as "upstanding" as they come.

 

If those cops were trigger happy... perhaps sympathetic discharges, etc., they will fry.

 

John

 

Please excuse the amateur questioning the Master, but can you explain what is meant by "sympathetic discharges"? I've never heard this term before and a Google search only finds the Sympathetic Discharge of Rimfire Firearms which is the firing of an adjacent cylinder in a .22 revolver. I'm sure that's not what you meant.

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I wanna see the video.

 

This guy was about as "upstanding" as they come.

 

If those cops were trigger happy... perhaps sympathetic discharges, etc., they will fry.

 

John

 

Please excuse the amateur questioning the Master, but can you explain what is meant by "sympathetic discharges"? I've never heard this term before and a Google search only finds the Sympathetic Discharge of Rimfire Firearms which is the firing of an adjacent cylinder in a .22 revolver. I'm sure that's not what you meant.

 

Lemme' take a stab and see if I'm right according to Templar. A high tension situation, everyone on edge. One shot goes off, and everyone fires "in sympathy" to the first. Close Templar??

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I wanna see the video.

 

This guy was about as "upstanding" as they come.

 

If those cops were trigger happy... perhaps sympathetic discharges, etc., they will fry.

 

John

 

Please excuse the amateur questioning the Master, but can you explain what is meant by "sympathetic discharges"? I've never heard this term before and a Google search only finds the Sympathetic Discharge of Rimfire Firearms which is the firing of an adjacent cylinder in a .22 revolver. I'm sure that's not what you meant.

 

Lemme' take a stab and see if I'm right according to Templar. A high tension situation, everyone on edge. One shot goes off, and everyone fires "in sympathy" to the first. Close Templar??

That's what I'm figuring he's referring to.

 

On the way home from SAFR - on the Metra train - The sliding restroom door on the railcar would close and BLAM!! It sounded a lot like what I imagined a small caliber gunshot would sound like in that train. Sometimes it was so loud I jumped!!

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I wanna see the video.

 

This guy was about as "upstanding" as they come.

 

If those cops were trigger happy... perhaps sympathetic discharges, etc., they will fry.

 

John

 

Please excuse the amateur questioning the Master, but can you explain what is meant by "sympathetic discharges"? I've never heard this term before and a Google search only finds the Sympathetic Discharge of Rimfire Firearms which is the firing of an adjacent cylinder in a .22 revolver. I'm sure that's not what you meant.

 

Lemme' take a stab and see if I'm right according to Templar. A high tension situation, everyone on edge. One shot goes off, and everyone fires "in sympathy" to the first. Close Templar??

That's what I'm figuring he's referring to.

 

On the way home from SAFR - on the Metra train - The sliding restroom door on the railcar would close and BLAM!! It sounded a lot like what I imagined a small caliber gunshot would sound like in that train. Sometimes it was so loud I jumped!!

 

So, did you slam a restroom door "in sympathy"?

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I wanna see the video.

 

This guy was about as "upstanding" as they come.

 

If those cops were trigger happy... perhaps sympathetic discharges, etc., they will fry.

 

John

 

Please excuse the amateur questioning the Master, but can you explain what is meant by "sympathetic discharges"? I've never heard this term before and a Google search only finds the Sympathetic Discharge of Rimfire Firearms which is the firing of an adjacent cylinder in a .22 revolver. I'm sure that's not what you meant.

 

Lemme' take a stab and see if I'm right according to Templar. A high tension situation, everyone on edge. One shot goes off, and everyone fires "in sympathy" to the first. Close Templar??

That's what I'm figuring he's referring to.

 

On the way home from SAFR - on the Metra train - The sliding restroom door on the railcar would close and BLAM!! It sounded a lot like what I imagined a small caliber gunshot would sound like in that train. Sometimes it was so loud I jumped!!

 

So, did you slam a restroom door "in sympathy"?

No...but by the end of the ride I was QUITE irritated!

 

Call it Post Traumatic Slammed Restroom Door Stress Syndrome!!

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I have also read several accounts of legally armed persons being confronted by police and being barked contradictory orders by different officers. If one officer yells drop the gun and other orders you to put your hand up. Either way you could hear bang, or in this case sympathy bangs too.

 

It's beginning to sound like this is exactly what happened. Also, accounts are coming out that the Costco employee reporting the incident to the 911 operator exaggerated the situation, saying "a man with a gun is going berserk" to get cops there faster.

 

Read the comments after the story.

 

Conflicting Accounts of Officer-Involved Shooting Emerge

 

LAS VEGAS - Chris Castillo describes his co-worker and good friend Erik Scott in glowing terms.

 

"(He) served his country, West Point grad, Duke master's degree, solid business guy," Castillo said. Castillo is shocked Scott was shot and killed by Metro Police Saturday afternoon. "It was very, very hard to believe. Everybody was in disbelief as to what the heck could have happened and why," Castillos said.

 

The 38-year-old medical salesman was shopping with his girlfriend at Costco when police say trouble began. "What he was doing was removing metal water bottles out of their packages or boxes," said Metro Police Captain Patrick Neville said. "He threw a few on the floor, and put other ones within his cart."

 

Police say customers complained about Scott's behavior. He allegedly argued with security and refused to obey officers when they arrived. "(He) goes into his waistband area, puts his hand on the weapon, is going for the weapon," Capt. Neville said. "The officer then begins to issue verbal commands for him to get on the ground, get on the ground, get on the ground."

 

Three officers then fired seven shots. "We have over a dozen witnesses that saw this individual pull a weapon from his waistband," Captain Neville said.

 

Attorney Ross Goodman represents Scott's family. He says Scott never pulled a gun and was not acting in a threatening way toward officers. He says other witnesses will back that up. Some comments on 8NewsNOW.com from people who claim to have witnessed the shooting agree with Goodman.

 

One person wrote, "I saw the whole thing go down from start to finish, and the cops were trigger happy. The guy never had a chance." "I was there, and I never saw this guy do anything with his gun," another person wrote. "The police started shooting immediately after ‘drop it' was yelled."

 

Metro officers say they haven't heard those eyewitness accounts yet and encourage anyone who saw anything to contact them.

 

"It sounds like he was trying to show the police his gun by lifting up his shirt," Castillo said. "These guys, they fired prematurely."

 

Captain Neville says 911 calls will prove otherwise. "I could clearly hear the officers giving commands to the individual to get him on the ground," he said. "You could hear people yelling and screaming in the background. You could hear the shots being fired." "When you listen to that, it definitely sends a chill down your spine," Capt. Neville said.

 

Goodman says he hopes surveillance video, along with the witnesses he's hearing from, will show Scott did nothing wrong.

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Family Gets Chilling Account of Costco Shooting

 

LAS VEGAS -- A chilling account of what happened Saturday afternoon at a Summerlin Costco has surfaced, blasting Las Vegas police for what witnesses call excessive force.

 

Erik Scott was shot and killed by police. Metro says he was armed and posed a threat, but witnesses are coming forward saying they don't believe that's true.

 

At least one of these accounts was from a couple who says they were just feet away from where Scott was shot. They says he didn't draw his gun or point it at police, but officers shot anyway.

 

Scott's cousin and family friends say witnesses are reaching out to them.

 

"The event immediately spiraled out of control, but not from the perspective of Erik who, from what his girlfriend said, was like absolutely stunned -- shocked that police were there. 'Why are police here? What's going on in the store?' Suddenly the police are firing," said family friend William Birnes.

 

The 38-year-old medical salesman had been inside Costco shopping with his girlfriend, when Metro says it received numerous 911 calls for his erratic behavior and reporting he was carrying a gun. This prompted the store to evacuate employees and customers.

 

According to his cousin, an eyewitness who was right next to Scott claims he didn't have a gun in his hand or appear to be hostile in any way. But Metro says that wasn't the case. They say they saw a weapon and that Scott was a threat.

 

"If I give you a command to drop the weapon or get on the ground, or whatever I happen to do, and you don't comply with that and you have a weapon in your hand, you continue moving forward and pointing at me, I'm going to definitely think that my life is in danger. I would definitely think, in my mind, that you're going to shoot me," said Metro Capt. Patrick Neville.

 

Three officers shot Scott seven times. The witness says he remembers his girlfriend screaming, "Why did you kill him? He is a military man with a license to carry a concealed weapon. You didn't need to kill him. You didn't need to kill him."

 

The officers are on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation.

 

The witness says once Scott was down and clearly not a threat, the manner in which authorities handled his lifeless body was "like a sack of potatoes." It is unknown if the witnesses have yet given their statement to police.

 

What will set the record straight is surveillance video and the 911 calls placed during the incident. But Metro will not release them until the coroner's inquest sometime in September.

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Now we got to see the Costco video. Witnesses' are now have directly conflicting stories. I suppose that is the case all the time. If the deceased had pointed a gun as police claim you would think that fact would be obvious to all observers that had a view if his hand considering most interviewed so far were within 20 feet! And just as obvious would be a gun dropping along with the recipient of the projectiles. (Note: I have not assigned a "victim" yet.)
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Now we got to see the Costco video. Witnesses' are now have directly conflicting stories. I suppose that is the case all the time. If the deceased had pointed a gun as police claim you would think that fact would be obvious to all observers that had a view if his hand considering most interviewed so far were within 20 feet! And just as obvious would be a gun dropping along with the recipient of the projectiles. (Note: I have not assigned a "victim" yet.)

 

OK....What video??

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Now we got to see the Costco video. Witnesses' are now have directly conflicting stories. I suppose that is the case all the time. If the deceased had pointed a gun as police claim you would think that fact would be obvious to all observers that had a view if his hand considering most interviewed so far were within 20 feet! And just as obvious would be a gun dropping along with the recipient of the projectiles. (Note: I have not assigned a "victim" yet.)

 

OK....What video??

 

The Costco involved supposedly had several video surveillance cameras capable of viewing the entryway where the shooting occurred. Additionally, since the call to police originated from an employee the internal video would confirm or deny the "erratic behavior" cited by the police. Most published witnesses stated they saw nothing they would consider "erratic" behavior. I just hate speculation when the video most probably will fill in the blanks.

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Now we got to see the Costco video. Witnesses' are now have directly conflicting stories. I suppose that is the case all the time. If the deceased had pointed a gun as police claim you would think that fact would be obvious to all observers that had a view if his hand considering most interviewed so far were within 20 feet! And just as obvious would be a gun dropping along with the recipient of the projectiles. (Note: I have not assigned a "victim" yet.)

 

OK....What video??

 

The Costco involved supposedly had several video surveillance cameras capable of viewing the entryway where the shooting occurred. Additionally, since the call to police originated from an employee the internal video would confirm or deny the "erratic behavior" cited by the police. Most published witnesses stated they saw nothing they would consider "erratic" behavior. I just hate speculation when the video most probably will fill in the blanks.

 

Yes, I understand there is several Costco video surveillance cameras that may have captured the events leading up to and including the shooting.

 

But, When you earlier said, "Now we got to see the Costco video." I took it as "Now we have seen the Costco video." and I thought perhaps a video had been leaked and was out there being viewed. That's why I asked "What video??"

 

I now believe that you meant to convey "Now we really have to see the Costco video." meaning anxiously await. I hope I'm understanding you correctly now.

 

At times it's hard to grasp the posters' meaning in text.

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Now we got to see the Costco video. Witnesses' are now have directly conflicting stories. I suppose that is the case all the time. If the deceased had pointed a gun as police claim you would think that fact would be obvious to all observers that had a view if his hand considering most interviewed so far were within 20 feet! And just as obvious would be a gun dropping along with the recipient of the projectiles. (Note: I have not assigned a "victim" yet.)

 

OK....What video??

 

The Costco involved supposedly had several video surveillance cameras capable of viewing the entryway where the shooting occurred. Additionally, since the call to police originated from an employee the internal video would confirm or deny the "erratic behavior" cited by the police. Most published witnesses stated they saw nothing they would consider "erratic" behavior. I just hate speculation when the video most probably will fill in the blanks.

 

Yes, I understand there is several Costco video surveillance cameras that may have captured the events leading up to and including the shooting.

 

But, When you earlier said, "Now we got to see the Costco video." I took it as "Now we have seen the Costco video." and I thought perhaps a video had been leaked and was out there being viewed. That's why I asked "What video??"

 

I now believe that you meant to convey "Now we really have to see the Costco video." meaning anxiously await. I hope I'm understanding you correctly now.

 

At times it's hard to grasp the posters' meaning in text.

 

I thought the same as well there for a sec, but now I see the ladder is what he meant.

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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1723801/posts

 

We have discussed whether or not the police acted properly and whether or not the permit holder could have or should have done something to make the confrontation with police less likely and certainly whether he did anything to escalate the confrontation. But what about Costco. Did they inform him and the public of their no firearms policy in a clear and understandable manner? Did the Costco employees over-react? If police were between him and the front door, can we assume that he was, in fact, complying with the employees and removing himself and his firearm from the store? What actions were so severe that an evacuation of the store was deemed to be warranted?

 

We very often think in terms of what "should" be and we need to be constantly aware, though, of "what is". We may correctly understand that we have the human right to carry our firearm but, as this incident points out, arguing that point could be deadly. Even if we discover, after all is said and done, that the permit holder was completely within his rights the end result remains the same. He is dead!

 

In fact, we may discover that a great number of people will have good cause to conclude that everything that the police, Costco, and the permit holder did was within the boundries of reasonable beaviour. (I don't see how that could be true but .... ).. Regardless of the eventual outcome of the investigation, as a permit holder myself, the only behaviour that I can control is my own and when we are dealing with a tool that can be as misunderstood and deadly as a firearm it is important that we do not allow our convictions and stubborness lead to an event such as we are discussing here.

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I would like to see all of the facts. With all of the conflicting "unofficial" statements made by several supposed witnesses, we are relegated to assumption of what may or may not have happened. Video from the scene may not reveal everything either. Toxicology results maybe more important than the video. The girlfriend/fiance who has refused to comment due to (understandable stress) must make a statement. The employee who made the 911 must be thoroughly vetted.... There are far too many variables involved at this point to even think who may or may not be in the right, or wrong.

 

This is the difference between justice and the kind of "street justice" that we read about on a daily basis, where the thugs are the judge, jury and executioners.

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I would like to see all of the facts. With all of the conflicting "unofficial" statements made by several supposed witnesses, we are relegated to assumption of what may or may not have happened. Video from the scene may not reveal everything either. Toxicology results maybe more important than the video. The girlfriend/fiance who has refused to comment due to (understandable stress) must make a statement. The employee who made the 911 must be thoroughly vetted.... There are far too many variables involved at this point to even think who may or may not be in the right, or wrong.

 

This is the difference between justice and the kind of "street justice" that we read about on a daily basis, where the thugs are the judge, jury and executioners.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1723801/posts

Agreed, but my point was that if we are gong to carry a firearm, we must go the extra mile to avoid circumstances such as the one in Las Vegas. We can always argue our moral position, but doing it while carrying a firearm on some elses property is not a good time just as it is not a good time to give a lesson on the Constitution if it is for the benefit of a cop that has your car stopped along a highway somewhere.

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Now we got to see the Costco video. Witnesses' are now have directly conflicting stories. I suppose that is the case all the time. If the deceased had pointed a gun as police claim you would think that fact would be obvious to all observers that had a view if his hand considering most interviewed so far were within 20 feet! And just as obvious would be a gun dropping along with the recipient of the projectiles. (Note: I have not assigned a "victim" yet.)

 

OK....What video??

 

The Costco involved supposedly had several video surveillance cameras capable of viewing the entryway where the shooting occurred. Additionally, since the call to police originated from an employee the internal video would confirm or deny the "erratic behavior" cited by the police. Most published witnesses stated they saw nothing they would consider "erratic" behavior. I just hate speculation when the video most probably will fill in the blanks.

 

Yes, I understand there is several Costco video surveillance cameras that may have captured the events leading up to and including the shooting.

 

But, When you earlier said, "Now we got to see the Costco video." I took it as "Now we have seen the Costco video." and I thought perhaps a video had been leaked and was out there being viewed. That's why I asked "What video??"

 

I now believe that you meant to convey "Now we really have to see the Costco video." meaning anxiously await. I hope I'm understanding you correctly now.

 

At times it's hard to grasp the posters' meaning in text.

 

Got ya.

 

The video should fill in the blanks, just as the audio of my comment would have clarified that based on the inflection and emphasis!

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I would like to see in store surveillance video and compare the events leading up to the shooting versus what the store employee conveyed in the 911 call. Witnesses tell of a man taking water bottles out of their package, putting some in his cart and some on the floor. Police respond to a call from a store employee reporting "a man with a gun, acting erratically" and "damaging merchandise". LV Police are refusing to release the audio recording.

 

It's my guess that the police arrived at the scene in full combat mode due to an exaggerated version of events reported by the store employee to the 911 operator and the ordered evacuation of the store by employees. Not to point fault at the LV police, mind you. You go with what you know by what's being reported. It's a tragedy for all that are involved.

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