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Known legal ramifications on modifying CCW internals?


mblackheart

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I have yet to see a case where anyone was convicted of a crime based on modifications.

 

HOWEVER, you must understand that if you are in a "questionable" shoot, a prosecutor can use these mods in court. I absolutely believe that a prosecutor would abandon a murder charge to get a negligent discharge/manslaughter conviction.

 

Look up George Zimmerman's court room footage, and watch the part where the particulars of his firearm are examined; then ask yourself if you want to be sitting there when the forensic guy says "no, the trigger was out of factory specifications."

 

You really don't know how a justified use of force may flesh itself out, who will be testifying on your behalf, and what their motivations might be. Truth is in short supply these days. Besides, a bad trigger is nothing a thousand rounds of practice won't cure.

 

 

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I think mods would only be a factor in a case where a negligent discharge caused injury/death/damage. For an intentional defensive shooting it shouldn't matter what mods you have...mods or not you found yourself under attack and defended yourself with what you had available.

I would skip out on molon labe,skulls, and punisher type dress up stuff...that might be hard to explain.

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I like Massad Ayoob's advice on the subject. He notes in his book that modifications to the pistol, particularly ones that make the operation better, are fine as long as you stay away from safety mechanisms and trigger weight modifications. I'd have no hesitations with installing sights, mag releases, mag floorplates, or anything like that. The trigger shoe would probably also be fine, as long as you're using oem parts. (eg. putting a G17 shoe on a G19).

 

John Monroe, firearms defense attorney, did a pretty good interview earlier this week on reddit, and was also asked the infamous question. Paraphrasing, his answer was basically that if you have a good shoot, pistol mods won't make it a bad shoot.

 

A lot of this does not apply to civil court though, where it's much more of a free for all.

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I searched for this same subject and found nothing in Illinois. I was concerned with the same situation. Living in a very liberal part of Illinois, I have not made any mods to the function of my carry weapon. I just don't want to give them any kind of extra ammo in court to make an argument. I have stippled my frame and i even second guess that after the fact.
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I like Massad Ayoob's advice on the subject. He notes in his book that modifications to the pistol, particularly ones that make the operation better, are fine as long as you stay away from safety mechanisms and trigger weight modifications. I'd have no hesitations with installing sights, mag releases, mag floorplates, or anything like that. The trigger shoe would probably also be fine, as long as you're using oem parts. (eg. putting a G17 shoe on a G19).

 

John Monroe, firearms defense attorney, did a pretty good interview earlier this week on reddit, and was also asked the infamous question. Paraphrasing, his answer was basically that if you have a good shoot, pistol mods won't make it a bad shoot.

 

A lot of this does not apply to civil court though, where it's much more of a free for all.

 

12 lbs trigger pull out of the box then means dropping it to 5 lbs is unethical?

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The prosecutor will try anything hope a jury will buy it. A few years back in Arizona a teacher was convicted in a self defense shooting. The prosecution was succesful claiming his carrying a 10mm indictated guilt.

Make sure you understand "AOJ" then be prepared to defend it in court.

That sounds like bull sutff. Got a link to the story or any information ? I don't believe it.

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As has been noted by others, this argument against not "modding" your carry gun is based more in fiction than reality. You hear it said a lot but nobody can ever site a case in which a successful prosecution was attained against someone who was otherwise legally justified based solely on a modified weapon. Simply modifying your carry gun is not enough to paint you as guilty. Persecutors wish it was that easy.

However, as also noted, it can and will be brought up in court as a form of character assassination. But that's just standard practice in a case like that. They are gonna go through your whole life and do that same thing so your modified gun is probably the least of your worries if you're on trial for shooting someone.

Personally that small concern is not enough for me to leave my carry gun stock if it means I'm at a disadvantage when it comes to defending myself. I want to have the best gun possible to defend myself with. The end.

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I like Massad Ayoob's advice on the subject. He notes in his book that modifications to the pistol, particularly ones that make the operation better, are fine as long as you stay away from safety mechanisms and trigger weight modifications. I'd have no hesitations with installing sights, mag releases, mag floorplates, or anything like that. The trigger shoe would probably also be fine, as long as you're using oem parts. (eg. putting a G17 shoe on a G19).

 

John Monroe, firearms defense attorney, did a pretty good interview earlier this week on reddit, and was also asked the infamous question. Paraphrasing, his answer was basically that if you have a good shoot, pistol mods won't make it a bad shoot.

 

A lot of this does not apply to civil court though, where it's much more of a free for all.

 

12 lbs trigger pull out of the box then means dropping it to 5 lbs is unethical?

 

 

Unethical? Or do you question if that would that put you in legal jeopardy? Glocks have multiple stock trigger weights available, so a 5lb trigger would still be stock, although may not be how you purchased your firearm. Hard to knock that in court, civil or criminal.

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I like Massad Ayoob's advice on the subject. He notes in his book that modifications to the pistol, particularly ones that make the operation better, are fine as long as you stay away from safety mechanisms and trigger weight modifications. I'd have no hesitations with installing sights, mag releases, mag floorplates, or anything like that. The trigger shoe would probably also be fine, as long as you're using oem parts. (eg. putting a G17 shoe on a G19).

 

John Monroe, firearms defense attorney, did a pretty good interview earlier this week on reddit, and was also asked the infamous question. Paraphrasing, his answer was basically that if you have a good shoot, pistol mods won't make it a bad shoot.

 

A lot of this does not apply to civil court though, where it's much more of a free for all.

 

12 lbs trigger pull out of the box then means dropping it to 5 lbs is unethical?

 

 

I wouldn't consider it unethical at all, unless that trigger modification could be proved as the main reason someone was shot. I'd imagine that I'd be harder to convince than the average juror though.

 

I would consider the insanity defense on the basis of buying a handgun with a 12lb trigger :laugh:

 

In all seriousness though, I think a trigger job, done right with quality parts is most likely fine. Heck, you can get a Glock trigger down to around 4lbs with oem parts even. Now on the flip side, if you were an early adopter of the S&W Sigma and did the pen spring trigger fix, then accidentally light one off into little Susie's leg on a sympathetic squeeze, you might be in some hot water.

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The prosecutor will try anything hope a jury will buy it. A few years back in Arizona a teacher was convicted in a self defense shooting. The prosecution was succesful claiming his carrying a 10mm indictated guilt.

Make sure you understand "AOJ" then be prepared to defend it in court.

That sounds like bull sutff. Got a link to the story or any information ? I don't believe it.

 

 

That guy was Harold Fish. They tore that poor man apart. The pistol caliber, loaded condition of the pistol while in his vehicle, even his firearm collection at home was all used to paint him as a gun nut looking for an excuse to use one. Combine it with a biased judge, and we got a law abiding citizen who picked up a murder charge. Thankfully it was eventually overturned.

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Realize that the Kate Steinle case was dismissed due to the prosecution not knowing the Sig was a dual action/single action.

 

The prosecutor argued the trigger was too heavy to accidentally discharge so it must of been intentional.

 

The defense argued that the Sig could be cocked in single action mode, where it would of had a "hair pin trigger".

 

I've heard of that argument used successfully other times to absolve guilt to the point that if your going to "accidently" shoot someone your better off modifying the trigger.

 

I've yet to hear the trigger modification go the other way.

 

There was the Arizona cop http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/03/robert-farago/cops-ar-15-dust-cover-inscription-used-against-him-in-court/who had the dust cover inscription of "your ******" used against him.

 

So I guess it could go both ways. Your more likely to get screwed in a negligent discharge if you've made the modifications yourself. But I'm of the school of thought that most people that "accidently" discharge a firearm into someone else's vital organs probably just have a really good lawyer.

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The prosecutor will try anything hope a jury will buy it. A few years back in Arizona a teacher was convicted in a self defense shooting. The prosecution was succesful claiming his carrying a 10mm indictated guilt.

Make sure you understand "AOJ" then be prepared to defend it in court.

 

That sounds like bull sutff. Got a link to the story or any information ? I don't believe it.

My only link is to my memory. This trial made the national news for a couple years. The public out cry over the injustice prompted Arizona legislature to over haul the self defense statute. I di not remember the details. They thought they worded the new public act to be retriactive to helo the defendant but the judge would not accept it. A very interesting case.

You might want to be better informed because something bs.

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The prosecutor will try anything hope a jury will buy it. A few years back in Arizona a teacher was convicted in a self defense shooting. The prosecution was succesful claiming his carrying a 10mm indictated guilt.

Make sure you understand "AOJ" then be prepared to defend it in court.

That sounds like bull sutff. Got a link to the story or any information ? I don't believe it.

My only link is to my memory. This trial made the national news for a couple years. The public out cry over the injustice prompted Arizona legislature to over haul the self defense statute. I di not remember the details. They thought they worded the new public act to be retriactive to helo the defendant but the judge would not accept it. A very interesting case.

You might want to be better informed because something bs.

 

 

Here is the information about the Harold Fish case.

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About five or six years ago I was on a jury for a shooting, no one killed but injured. Without going into the details the handgun was never recovered so no testing of function or action type. There was some discussion about how a semi-auto handgun functions. I was the only person on the jury that had any knowledge of firearms so I can understand how a lawyer could come out with a lot of BS and snow the jury. Jim.

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I've modified both the safety and the trigger on my PX4 which is my EDC. However, even though I eliminated the safety and it's now decocker-only that only turns it from a Type F into a Type G, both of which are factory offerings. Likewise I installed a Beretta competition trigger, the very same trigger found on the PX4 Compact Carry model. So overall it's still a configuration offered by the Beretta factory.
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The prosecutor will say anything he or she wants. "Did you clean and oil your gun so it can kill people faster?"

Exactly. It doesn't matter what's modified or not. Even stock they will call out your choice of gun.

 

If you were defending yourself in a self defense shooting with a stock gun that are carried by police departments they will cite cases of police officers squeezing off extra rounds under stress due to the "hair pin trigger" of a factory glock, Sig, etc. This could be damming if you shoot the threat and shoot the threat's unarmed "non threatening" accomplice.

 

Again, referencing the Kate Steinle case, they even argued the gun had a higher risk of "accidental" discharges citing public police ND's.

 

Any sighting system, stock or not, will be called into question in relation to the distance from you the threat was, to argue that they may not of been a threat at that distance.

 

Do you really want to carry hardball ammunition because your wise choice of JHP's will be called evil black talons by the prosecutor?

 

It's really a tactical question if a modification, ammo choice, gun choice, sighting/optics, etc. will help you defend yourself better. Obviously "kill em all" on your grips isn't giving any performance gains and will be used against you.

 

It's pretty much damned if you do damned if you don't so make sure your lawyer is knowledgeable on the functioning of firearms and can mount a proper defense. Most lawyers are not knowledgeable on guns and most do not have credible witnesses on call, so choose wisely.

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The prosecutor will say anything he or she wants. "Did you clean and oil your gun so it can kill people faster?"

 

Exactly. It doesn't matter what's modified or not. Even stock they will call out your choice of gun.

If you were defending yourself in a self defense shooting with a stock gun that are carried by police departments they will cite cases of police officers squeezing off extra rounds under stress due to the "hair pin trigger" of a factory glock, Sig, etc. This could be damming if you shoot the threat and shoot the threat's unarmed "non threatening" accomplice.

Again, referencing the Kate Steinle case, they even argued the gun had a higher risk of "accidental" discharges citing public police ND's.

Any sighting system, stock or not, will be called into question in relation to the distance from you the threat was, to argue that they may not of been a threat at that distance.

Do you really want to carry hardball ammunition because your wise choice of JHP's will be called evil black talons by the prosecutor?

It's really a tactical question if a modification, ammo choice, gun choice, sighting/optics, etc. will help you defend yourself better. Obviously "kill em all" on your grips isn't giving any performance gains and will be used against you.

It's pretty much damned if you do damned if you don't so make sure your lawyer is knowledgeable on the functioning of firearms and can mount a proper defense. Most lawyers are not knowledgeable on guns and most do not have credible witnesses on call, so choose wisely.

In a earlier post I made reference to something that happened when I was much younger.

 

"In 1990 I personally saw the effects of a negligent discharge that sent a .308 bullet right through a friend of mines chest, killing him instantly. His eyes rolled up into his head before he hit the ground. Another friend was the one who was putting his safety on and the rifle just went off. His finger was not on the trigger."

 

Even though it was a ND and the some of the officers KNEW about the Remington's 700 issues with it just going off, they held my friend for 10 hours, took sworn statements from the two of us who witnessed it and interrogated my friend for hours who was putting the safety on when the rifle just went off. It wasn't until they got the report back that the crime lab was able to duplicate the ND and the gun was not modified in any way that he was absolved of any criminal charges. He was still sued by my deceased friends wife and she also sued Remington who settled out of court. The bullet was never recovered, it went through my friend and then a wall to the outside.

 

I guess my point is he could have been charged criminally if the report had come back differently. It still sticks with me to this day, it was a very ** up situation. My friend didn't even try and fight the civil suit, his homeowners paid out the maximum of the policy and since we were all buddies my deceased friends wife didn't go for the multi million dollar payday. I have no idea what she got from Remington.

The ****** up thing is modifications sometimes help in a cases like this. If the rifle wasn't a Remington 700 (Walker trigger) and trigger work was performed by a gunsmith the outcome would of been the same, minus the payoff from the manufacturer. A lot of negligent discharge cases are dismissed as accidents because of modified triggers, not despite them.

 

The law sometimes protects the guilty and punishes the innocent, but there is just not enough case law that show gun functionality modifications or ammo choice hurt the defendent in self defense cases. Or at least anymore then a stock gun and factory ammo.

 

Plenty of case law, including the recent Kate Steinle case that actually show having a lighter trigger or a gun that fires with no trigger at all help you in negligent discharge cases.

 

It comes down to two things, did you intentionally pull the trigger (self defense/homicide) or did you accidentally pull the trigger/discharge with no trigger pull. Trigger pull weight will not hurt you in one case, unsafely modified or from the factory guns will help you in the second case, unless you are the armorer or manufacturer.

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This is all about the drama:

 

The states attorney is going to say all kinds of bad things about anything you do in order to get a conviction. It does not matter what they say it matters what a jury believes. This is a function of what the states attorney says and what your lawyer says. You have no control over this whatsoever. You are trying to prepare for a test without having any idea on what the test is about. If you even look at all of the things Mas brings up there is a strategy to how he does things that varies from case to case.

 

So look here are the known facts:

 

There is very little to any evidence that any modifications to firearms has had any real effect on a court case.

 

A gun with a extremely heavy trigger is hard to hit things with (ask the NYPD about the NYC glock trigger and look at the hit statistics)

 

You are the person he has the decision to make about mods to your gun everything in this thread is for the most part opinion

 

I have made the choice to make is possible to get decent hits stabbing the trigger hard while point shooting (the most likely use case I will have for a defensive firearm)

 

 

Nothing good ever happens once the gun comes out. It is a matter of less bad things happening. If you take this attitude you will be far better off. You cant prepare for a violent encounter you can only train to react better to it.

 

You are not the police. You are not responsible for protecting everyone (even the police are not). Make the best choices you can and live with them. by the way all of my defensive guns are between 4 and 5 lbs.

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What about taking into consideration mods made for a "senior citizen"?

 

An elderly relative of mine was having trouble cocking the hammer on their SP-101 (.38 Sp.) and even MORE trouble pulling the trigger in DA mode. A gunsmith would not DO the work but did tell me what to do. The coil spring in the butt was shortened by 3-4 turns, reducing the almost 30 lb. DA pull to a more manageable 10 lbs.

It is still hard for this relative but at least they can use the gun again.

 

I defy a prosecutor to go after a person in their late 80s for making it easier to protect themselves.

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This is all about the drama:

 

The states attorney is going to say all kinds of bad things about anything you do in order to get a conviction. It does not matter what they say it matters what a jury believes. This is a function of what the states attorney says and what your lawyer says. You have no control over this whatsoever. You are trying to prepare for a test without having any idea on what the test is about. If you even look at all of the things Mas brings up there is a strategy to how he does things that varies from case to case.

 

So look here are the known facts:

 

There is very little to any evidence that any modifications to firearms has had any real effect on a court case.

 

A gun with a extremely heavy trigger is hard to hit things with (ask the NYPD about the NYC glock trigger and look at the hit statistics)

 

You are the person he has the decision to make about mods to your gun everything in this thread is for the most part opinion

 

I have made the choice to make is possible to get decent hits stabbing the trigger hard while point shooting (the most likely use case I will have for a defensive firearm)

 

 

Nothing good ever happens once the gun comes out. It is a matter of less bad things happening. If you take this attitude you will be far better off. You cant prepare for a violent encounter you can only train to react better to it.

 

You are not the police. You are not responsible for protecting everyone (even the police are not). Make the best choices you can and live with them. by the way all of my defensive guns are between 4 and 5 lbs.

 

 

These are all good thoughts from thobart.

 

That a prosecutor will rip you apart for using a gun in self defense that has been modified so that you can shoot better is the art of folklore.

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This is all about the drama:

 

The states attorney is going to say all kinds of bad things about anything you do in order to get a conviction. It does not matter what they say it matters what a jury believes. This is a function of what the states attorney says and what your lawyer says. You have no control over this whatsoever. You are trying to prepare for a test without having any idea on what the test is about. If you even look at all of the things Mas brings up there is a strategy to how he does things that varies from case to case.

 

So look here are the known facts:

 

There is very little to any evidence that any modifications to firearms has had any real effect on a court case.

 

A gun with a extremely heavy trigger is hard to hit things with (ask the NYPD about the NYC glock trigger and look at the hit statistics)

 

You are the person he has the decision to make about mods to your gun everything in this thread is for the most part opinion

 

I have made the choice to make is possible to get decent hits stabbing the trigger hard while point shooting (the most likely use case I will have for a defensive firearm)

 

 

Nothing good ever happens once the gun comes out. It is a matter of less bad things happening. If you take this attitude you will be far better off. You cant prepare for a violent encounter you can only train to react better to it.

 

You are not the police. You are not responsible for protecting everyone (even the police are not). Make the best choices you can and live with them. by the way all of my defensive guns are between 4 and 5 lbs.

 

 

These are all good thoughts from thobart.

 

That a prosecutor will rip you apart for using a gun in self defense that has been modified so that you can shoot better is the art of folklore.

 

More along the lines that they are going to say you should not have shot someone, you should not have shot them as many times as you did and that you could have run away.

 

It is all about what the jury hears and thinks about what they hear nothing else. For what it is worth even in Illinois they have not really prosecuted many self defense cases wrongly. Now the whole UUW thing a while back was kind of BS. Also you have some protection from civil suits it "can" get thrown out of the shooting is ruled justified but lawyers are good and slipping through the loopholes.

 

You have to make the choice just dont pull the gun out if there is not an immediate credible threat to great harm. I try to keep some form of escalation of force with me at all times. My very bright flashlight has served me well in downtown Chicago. 2000 lumens puts a spotlight on people acting stupid if there is some distance and you keep aware. I have spotlighted quite a few homeless acting funny downtown in the middle of the night. Drama stooped right away.

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There was the Arizona cop http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/03/robert-farago/cops-ar-15-dust-cover-inscription-used-against-him-in-court/who had the dust cover inscription of "your ******" used against him.

 

A not guilty verdict has been delivered in the trial of a former police officer accused of murdering a man in a hotel hallway in 2016. New video of the incident shows the entire episode. Philip Mitchell Brailsford, 27, responding to a 911 call, gives orders to 26-year-old Daniel Shaver, who appears compliant. But when Shaver moved to adjust his waistband, Brailsford shot him.

 

Brailsford had been charged with second degree murder in the death of Shavers. During the investigation, media seized on the detail that the dust cover of Brailsford’s AR-15 had the phrase “You’re ******” written on the inside.

 

The Mesa, AZ police would later fire Officer Brailsford for procedural violations. The video alone could justify that decision, as it shows a shooting that was, ultimately, preventable.

 

 

 

 

http://tribunist.com/news/cop-whose-ar15-dust-cover-was-used-against-him-in-court-learns-fate/

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