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Is it legal for someone to let you use their firearm for self defense?

Firearm lend borrow

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#1 lupe91

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 09:11 AM

If a firearm is registerd to another person and they have a foid card, are you allowed to borrow and use their firearm as long as you have a foid card?

#2 Mr. Fife

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 09:17 AM

Define what you mean by "registered to another person".
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#3 THE KING

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 09:21 AM

There is no firearm registration.

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#4 ragsbo

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 09:30 AM

I think that if you can legally possess the gun, ownership would not matter.



#5 Thiokol

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 10:04 AM

As previously stated, firearms are not registered in Illinois. In this goofy state only firearm owners are registered. I would think that Illinois would regard the loan of a firearm as a transfer requiring you to obtain the ISP approval and abide by the waiting period.


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#6 chicagoresident

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 10:13 AM

As previously stated, firearms are not registered in Illinois. In this goofy state only firearm owners are registered. I would think that Illinois would regard the loan of a firearm as a transfer requiring you to obtain the ISP approval and abide by the waiting period.

The way the law is worded I believe waiting period only applies to sales, not to gives. But possession of a firearm is ownership, so lending is a transfer. All other state and federal laws apply.

Good to print one of these out to CYA, you must fill this out to transfer a firearm, which is what youre doing by lending.
https://www.ispfsb.c...rmTransfer.aspx

Not a lawyer but the full law is referenced at the link above.

(720 ILCS 5/24-3) (from Ch. 38, par. 24-3)
(Text of Section before amendment by P.A. 97-1167)
Sec. 24-3. Unlawful sale or delivery of firearms.
(A) A person commits the offense of unlawful sale or
delivery of firearms when he or she knowingly does any of the
following:

(g) Delivers any firearm of a size which may be
concealed upon the person, incidental to a sale, without
withholding delivery of such firearm for at least 72 hours
after application for its purchase has been made, or
delivers any rifle, shotgun or other long gun, or a stun
gun or taser, incidental to a sale, without withholding
delivery of such rifle, shotgun or other long gun, or a
stun gun or taser for at least 24 hours after application
for its purchase has been made.


Edited by chicagoresident, 28 November 2019 - 10:39 AM.


#7 biggun 1

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 10:28 AM

As previously stated, firearms are not registered in Illinois. In this goofy state only firearm owners are registered. I would think that Illinois would regard the loan of a firearm as a transfer requiring you to obtain the ISP approval and abide by the waiting period.

bingo.i would never loan a firearm to anyone,in this state the laws are meant to take firearms away from law abiding gun owners and turn them in to criminals.illinois blames the firearm instead of the person doing the crime.the democratic law makers in this state are the dumbest in the country.



#8 Quiet Observer

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 10:39 AM

The OP does not define terms.  Does he mean borrow for a limited time in an emergent situation (see #6 below) or to keep in your house for days or months?  Obviously, CC would not be allowed without a CCL. 

 

I think some here are being too broad in using the term “transfer”.   I think it refers to a more or less permanent change of possession. If a group of shooters go to the range or hunting, and they tryout out each other’s guns, that would not meet the usage the term transfer in the law. 

 

There are exceptions to the transfer regulations in (430 ILCS 65/3) (from Ch. 38, par. 83-3)

    Sec. 3. 

 

        (2) transfers as a bona fide gift to the transferor's husband, wife, son, daughter, stepson, stepdaughter, father, mother, stepfather, stepmother, brother, sister, nephew, niece, uncle, aunt, grandfather, grandmother, grandson, granddaughter, father-in-law, mother-in-law, son-in-law, or daughter-in-law;  

 

        (6) temporary transfers that occur while in the home of the unlicensed transferee, if the unlicensed transferee is not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms and the unlicensed transferee reasonably believes that possession of the firearm is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to the unlicensed transferee;


Edited by Quiet Observer, 28 November 2019 - 10:40 AM.


#9 chicagoresident

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 10:44 AM

bingo.i would never loan a firearm to anyone,in this state the laws are meant to take firearms away from law abiding gun owners and turn them in to criminals.

Why? If done following the laws its a transfer. Private party transfers are the last bastion of firearm freedom left in this country. If youre already acquiescing before the ban of private transfers are on the books whats left to fight for?

If you follow the laws as a reasonable person would understand them and you still get caught up by the law lawyer up and get us some of our rights back. This is the last battleground for the 2nd amendment.

The OP does not define terms.  Does he mean borrow for a limited time in an emergent situation (see #6 below) or to keep in your house for days or months?  Obviously, CC would not be allowed without a CCL. 
 
I think some here are being too broad in using the term transfer.   I think it refers to a more or less permanent change of possession. If a group of shooters go to the range or hunting, and they tryout out each others guns, that would not meet the usage the term transfer in the law. 
 

I would assume lend to mean giving the other person possession of the gun without the OP being present after the lend, not under duress. In which case its a transfer not incidental to a sale.

Again, guns in Illinois arent registered so the only way to prove a transfer happened is to run a trace. If you purchased from an FFL its up to you to produce the paperwork (per Illinois law 10 year record keeping from when the law went into effect) showing you transferred it private party.

If the person had a Illinois foid card 10 years or prior to the law, or youve taken possession of the gun from the ffl longer than 10 years ago or prior to the law barring a witness to testify against you theres no way to prove an illegal transfer took place.

Edited by chicagoresident, 28 November 2019 - 10:56 AM.


#10 biggun 1

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 11:14 AM

 

bingo.i would never loan a firearm to anyone,in this state the laws are meant to take firearms away from law abiding gun owners and turn them in to criminals.

Why? If done following the laws its a transfer. Private party transfers are the last bastion of firearm freedom left in this country. If youre already acquiescing before the ban of private transfers are on the books whats left to fight for?

If you follow the laws as a reasonable person would understand them and you still get caught up by the law lawyer up and get us some of our rights back. This is the last battleground for the 2nd amendment.

The OP does not define terms.  Does he mean borrow for a limited time in an emergent situation (see #6 below) or to keep in your house for days or months?  Obviously, CC would not be allowed without a CCL. 
 
I think some here are being too broad in using the term transfer.   I think it refers to a more or less permanent change of possession. If a group of shooters go to the range or hunting, and they tryout out each others guns, that would not meet the usage the term transfer in the law. 
 

I would assume lend to mean giving the other person possession of the gun without the OP being present after the lend, not under duress. In which case its a transfer not incidental to a sale.

Again, guns in Illinois arent registered so the only way to prove a transfer happened is to run a trace. If you purchased from an FFL its up to you to produce the paperwork (per Illinois law 10 year record keeping from when the law went into effect) showing you transferred it private party.

If the person had a Illinois foid card 10 years or prior to the law, or youve taken possession of the gun from the ffl longer than 10 years ago or prior to the law barring a witness to testify against you theres no way to prove an illegal transfer took place.

 

if you transfer a firearm without a ffl you must go to the isp website to get a approval number,if you don,t you

have broken an illinois law.like i said this state has laws designed to turn law abiding gun owners into criminals.the op asked about loaning a firearm to another foid carying person,if i understand correctly he did not mention a transfer.


Edited by biggun 1, 28 November 2019 - 11:17 AM.


#11 Thiokol

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 11:24 AM

The argument about letting someone try out your gun at the range is immaterial since you retain possession of the gun and it goes home with you. Loaning a gun for an indeterminate period of time would not be a wise idea without doing the ISP check and transferring it legally. Suppose that the person that you loaned the gun to shows you his FOID and it has not yet expired. You're good to go, right? But what if his FOID has been revoked but not yet confiscated by the ISP, like has happened many times in Illinois. And suppose that he actually uses the gun to defend himself and shoots someone? When the smoke settles whom do you think the police will determine the owner of the gun to be? That would be you and then you'd be up the creek without a paddle for an illegal transfer.


Edited by Thiokol, 28 November 2019 - 11:51 AM.

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#12 Windermere

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 11:39 AM

Registration? Huh?
"Always remember, your ability to shoot and have a firearm makes it so that you are not subjected to the whims of other people without your permission. So, in other words, if you don't want to get raped, robbed, pillaged, or plundered... get a gun."
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#13 FST_Kent

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 01:39 PM

Earlier this century there was a guy in the next small town over in my county that borrowed his father's 1911, and shot another, 7 times, through the locked storm door in the back of his house. 

 

There was a previous history between the two also.  The dead man, who was disqualified from obtaining a FOID, had taken a handgun from his father earlier in the year in an attempt to kill the man who eventually killed him.

 

Civil liability had just been passed a few months earlier.

 

The Sheriff's Dept. knew some of the previous history due to the family calling to find him when he had take the pistol earlier in the year.

 

Even though he shot through the door, emptied the magazine into the the dead man's chest, and borrowed the 1911 from his father, the shooter was charged with manslaughter to hold him until everything was sorted out which lasted 16 hrs when he was let out of the Sheriff Dept/jail with no charges.

 

Grand Jury didn't charge him either.

 

It was never reported how many times or where the man was shot, but a lifelong friend of mine was the first LEO on the scene and described the steam coming out of all the holes in the man's chest.

 

My LEO friend had a history with the dead man.  Said he was an OK guy when he wasn't on drugs or drunk and felt he didn't need to get shot to death.  My LEO friend is a gun guy and pro self-defense.

 

I said, you don't steal a handgun from your father when you cannot legally posses one to go kill the guy earlier in the year and involve 3 different LEO agencies to chase you down(they found him without the handgun), then several months later keep calling all day saying you're coming over to kick the other guy's a**, park around the block, and then try to gain entry through the back door.

 

The guy did everything to get himself shot.

 

Long story short............

 

Even though it was reported on, it was a non-issue the FOID card holder using a borrowed handgun for self-defense.



#14 mikeyk101

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 01:59 PM

Kind of a strange first post. Makes me wonder about the motivation of asking this question. I would say most FOID holders will spend enough time to familiarize themselves of the basic laws involving firearm ownership...

#15 chicagoresident

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 02:19 PM

Kind of a strange first post. Makes me wonder about the motivation of asking this question. I would say most FOID holders will spend enough time to familiarize themselves of the basic laws involving firearm ownership...

Gee, if only there was a website providing educational information on legally acquiring and transferring firearms where you could sign up and ask people :rolleyes

IllinoisCarry is a not-for-profit organization dedicated to providing educational information about the lawful acquisition, possession, and carrying of firearms in Illinois as well as actively preserving, protecting, and advancing the Second Amendment Right to Carry for personal safety of self and others.

You do realize most people join the site to ask questions and learn the law. Criminals dont bother to learn laws, because they dont need to follow them, duuuhhhh.

I bet what you dont know about every single gun law could fill a book....

Edited by chicagoresident, 28 November 2019 - 02:25 PM.


#16 lupe91

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 05:52 PM

 

Kind of a strange first post. Makes me wonder about the motivation of asking this question. I would say most FOID holders will spend enough time to familiarize themselves of the basic laws involving firearm ownership...

Gee, if only there was a website providing educational information on legally acquiring and transferring firearms where you could sign up and ask people :rolleyes

IllinoisCarry is a not-for-profit organization dedicated to providing educational information about the lawful acquisition, possession, and carrying of firearms in Illinois as well as actively preserving, protecting, and advancing the Second Amendment Right to Carry for personal safety of self and others.

You do realize most people join the site to ask questions and learn the law. Criminals dont bother to learn laws, because they dont need to follow them, duuuhhhh.

I bet what you dont know about every single gun law could fill a book....

 

 

Thank you. There is nothing wrong with asking a question, that's how we learn. Anyways, basically I do no own a firearm. Someone who is not related to me owns a firearm and has a FOID. I have my FOID AND my CCW. I live near questionable neighborhoods. My question would be can they just physically let me borrow the gun for a short period of time if I had to pass through said neighborhoods or am I not legally allowed to borrow a firearm and have it on my person without transferring ownership? I hope this is more specific.



#17 soundguy

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 06:42 PM


-Anyways, basically I do not own a firearm.

 -Someone who is not related to me owns a firearm and has a FOID.

 -I have my FOID AND my CCW.

 -I live near questionable neighborhoods.

 

My question would be:

 -can they just physically let me borrow the gun for a short period of time if I had to pass through said neighborhoods or am I not legally allowed to borrow a firearm and have it on my person without transferring ownership? I hope this is more specific.

 

 

 

I'm not a lawyer, nor am I an expert in these laws...

 

Your scenario sounds like a transfer.

 -Three day waiting period.

 -Your friend needs to check your FOID on the ISP website and keep a transfer record for 10 years.

 -You should probably do the same when you transfer it back to your friend.

 

To my knowledge, there is no law that says the gun you legally carry must be yours.

 

Personally, I would opt to buy my own gun and take responsibility for it.

"Borrowing" a gun could get messy if you actually need to use it.

It could get really weird if there were ownership questions.

 

Before you carry any gun, I think you should be intimately familiar with the very gun you are going to carry... this may include many hours practicing with it at the range and possibly thousands of rounds fired.

My favorite carry pistol just returned home from being refinished. Though it has been 100% reliable for thousands of rounds for a couple years, I will NOT carry it again until I have put at least 500 more flawless rounds through it. I think reliability is at least that important.

 

I hope, should you acquire a temporary gun, you really are familiar enough with this gun to count on it and your ability to use it 100% should you need to use it. If you just want some comfort, some peace of mind, maybe travel a different route and avoid going through those bad neighborhoods.

 

Best!


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#18 lupe91

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 07:28 PM

 


-Anyways, basically I do not own a firearm.

 -Someone who is not related to me owns a firearm and has a FOID.

 -I have my FOID AND my CCW.

 -I live near questionable neighborhoods.

 

My question would be:

 -can they just physically let me borrow the gun for a short period of time if I had to pass through said neighborhoods or am I not legally allowed to borrow a firearm and have it on my person without transferring ownership? I hope this is more specific.

 

 

 

I'm not a lawyer, nor am I an expert in these laws...

 

Your scenario sounds like a transfer.

 -Three day waiting period.

 -Your friend needs to check your FOID on the ISP website and keep a transfer record for 10 years.

 -You should probably do the same when you transfer it back to your friend.

 

To my knowledge, there is no law that says the gun you legally carry must be yours.

 

Personally, I would opt to buy my own gun and take responsibility for it.

"Borrowing" a gun could get messy if you actually need to use it.

It could get really weird if there were ownership questions.

 

Before you carry any gun, I think you should be intimately familiar with the very gun you are going to carry... this may include many hours practicing with it at the range and possibly thousands of rounds fired.

My favorite carry pistol just returned home from being refinished. Though it has been 100% reliable for thousands of rounds for a couple years, I will NOT carry it again until I have put at least 500 more flawless rounds through it. I think reliability is at least that important.

 

I hope, should you acquire a temporary gun, you really are familiar enough with this gun to count on it and your ability to use it 100% should you need to use it. If you just want some comfort, some peace of mind, maybe travel a different route and avoid going through those bad neighborhoods.

 

Best!

 

 

 

After reading 430 ILCS 65(http://www.ilga.gov/...57&ChapterID=39), and your post I think my question has been answered. I didn't see anything defining  a "transfer" but it sounds it means even just "transferring possession" of a firearm. Good ol Illinois and unnecessary requirements.  



#19 Euler

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 08:26 PM

If a state doesn't statutorily define a term, it usually just means the definition defaults to the federal one. The ATF defines "transfer" in terms of title and control.

...
Neither the GCA nor its implementing regulations define the term "transfer." The common legal definition of "transfer" broadly encompasses any method of disposing of an asset. A "transfer" includes any change in dominion or control of a firearm, whether temporary or permanent, commercial or noncommercial. A change in dominion or control may occur even when such change does not convey title to the firearm.
...


So if you rent a firearm at a range, the owner is still the range, and the range still "controls" the firearm. If the range lets you leave with it, even if there's some understanding you're going to return it, then you're in control of it, even though the range still owns it. The first case is not a transfer. The second one is.

In the case of your friend, I'd interpret "lending" to be legal as long as he still controls the firearm, which means he's present. If he leaves it with you (or you leave with it), that's not lending anymore. That's a transfer.
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#20 chicagoresident

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 09:22 PM

Any other opinions on the 3 day wait for non sale transfers? Again, my non lawyer opinion is if its not a sale theres no required wait.

Even on revoked FOIDs it says you can give your guns to another FOID holder, before 48 hours. Ive seen some stupid firearm laws, but Id assume they wouldnt force you to break one law to comply with another.
https://www.ispfsb.c...dFOIDCards.aspx

Complete a Firearm Disposition Record disclosing the make, model, and serial number of each firearm owned by or under the control or custody of the revoked card holder and its disposition during the prohibited term.

In addition, if you are the sponsor of a minor(s) who has a FOID, the minor(s) FOID card has also been revoked and must be immediately surrendered. You are required to comply with these requirements within 48 hours of receiving notice from the Illinois State Police.

Heres the firearm disposition form, with blanks for private party transfer and FOID number.
https://www.ispfsb.c...itionRecord.pdf

https://www.ispfsb.c...dFOIDCards.aspx

And as I bolded I my first post, why would they make the clarification incidental to sale when codifying the wait period law.

Edited by chicagoresident, 28 November 2019 - 09:24 PM.


#21 Looper

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 09:26 PM

In the case of your friend, I'd interpret "lending" to be legal as long as he still controls the firearm, which means he's present. If he leaves it with you (or you leave with it), that's not lending anymore. That's a transfer. -from eulers post above-

 

 

If I lend you my lawnmower, I don't come with it. Lending is just that, a loan.


Edited by Looper, 28 November 2019 - 09:27 PM.


#22 Euler

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 10:46 PM

...
Even on revoked FOIDs it says you can give your guns to another FOID holder, before 48 hours. Ive seen some stupid firearm laws, but Id assume they wouldnt force you to break one law to comply with another.
...


When two (or more) laws conflict, the issue becomes about which law has supremacy. Assuming legislators know what they're doing when they write apparently conflicting laws may be assuming too much. Personally, I'd say the law that prohibits possession of firearms by non-FOID-holders would supersede the law that mandates a waiting period for otherwise legal transfers. Reasonable people may agree, but only case law can say for sure, and I'm not sure there is any.
 

If I lend you my lawnmower, I don't come with it. Lending is just that, a loan.


Colloquially, that may be the word you use for a lawnmower, but words are used more precisely in legal matters. For a lawnmower, I doubt it's important. The "loan" is a civil matter. For a firearm, it's more important. The ATF calls that "loan" a transfer, and it's a criminal matter.

Edited by Euler, 28 November 2019 - 10:54 PM.

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#23 Bubbacs

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Posted 29 November 2019 - 01:44 AM

Confused, but most here already know that!

You have a valid FOID and a CCL as you state.
So why would you not have a gun of your own if you wish to carry?
I’m of the thought that getting a CCL is to carry legally in the first place!

With today’s prices and the timing of this post (Black Friday) I’d think getting ones own firearm would be much better than even thinking of borrowing one.

Just my opinion..........

#24 chicagoresident

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Posted 29 November 2019 - 03:35 AM

Confused, but most here already know that!
You have a valid FOID and a CCL as you state.
So why would you not have a gun of your own if you wish to carry?
Im of the thought that getting a CCL is to carry legally in the first place!
With todays prices and the timing of this post (Black Friday) Id think getting ones own firearm would be much better than even thinking of borrowing one.
Just my opinion..........

If youre confused as to why person to person transfers not incidental of sales exist why are you posting?

Most of us own lots of guns, I would not hesitate to transfer a gun to any law abiding friend (required for foid or ccw) that felt they were in danger as OP stated.

Perfectly legal to do, without waiting 3 days (my interpretation) by simply filling out this form upon lending, gifting, etc. short of incidental to a sale (if incidental to sale same form, just need to abide by waiting period).
https://www.ispfsb.c...rmTransfer.aspx

Anyone else have references to law to dispute what Ive linked and quoted? Gun laws are intentionally ambiguous, so its good to provide the OP with the actual wording along with an interpretation so they can make a decision with all the facts.

Edited by chicagoresident, 29 November 2019 - 11:31 AM.


#25 Bitter Clinger

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Posted 29 November 2019 - 10:28 AM

While full of good info, this thread is an example of why the FOID law needs to be struck down.



#26 Bubbacs

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Posted 29 November 2019 - 02:45 PM

Confused, but most here already know that!
You have a valid FOID and a CCL as you state.
So why would you not have a gun of your own if you wish to carry?
Im of the thought that getting a CCL is to carry legally in the first place!
With todays prices and the timing of this post (Black Friday) Id think getting ones own firearm would be much better than even thinking of borrowing one.
Just my opinion..........

If youre confused as to why person to person transfers not incidental of sales exist why are you posting?
Most of us own lots of guns, I would not hesitate to transfer a gun to any law abiding friend (required for foid or ccw) that felt they were in danger as OP stated.
Perfectly legal to do, without waiting 3 days (my interpretation) by simply filling out this form upon lending, gifting, etc. short of incidental to a sale (if incidental to sale same form, just need to abide by waiting period). https://www.ispfsb.c...rmTransfer.aspx
Anyone else have references to law to dispute what Ive linked and quoted? Gun laws are intentionally ambiguous, so its good to provide the OP with the actual wording along with an interpretation so they can make a decision with all the facts.

Im confused as to why he isn’t getting his own gun.
No reason to get snarky!

Transfer, no transfer sale, no sale isn’t the response
Instead of muddying the waters, I was saying just buy your own and be done!
Always assume some one isn’t as smart as others or is against 2a

SMFH reason only the same people post all the time......

#27 mauserme

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Posted 29 November 2019 - 03:20 PM

Confused, but most here already know that!

You have a valid FOID and a CCL as you state.
So why would you not have a gun of your own if you wish to carry?
Im of the thought that getting a CCL is to carry legally in the first place!

With todays prices and the timing of this post (Black Friday) Id think getting ones own firearm would be much better than even thinking of borrowing one.

Just my opinion..........


It's possible that with Christmas around the corner, finances are being directed elsewhere. It's also possible that he'd like to carry before he buys - drive it around a few days.

There are valid reason - reasons that are mostly is own.




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