mjw45 Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:34 PM Author Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:34 PM Question for the ISP: What provision, if any, is being made for out of state permit applicants to get their prints done? Will out of state applicants, without a trip to IL and a Live Scan vendor, be required to wait the additional 30 days for approval using paper prints or will paper prints, perhaps done by a law enforcement agency located near to the applicants home, be adequate to prevent undue delay? I believe I read some where that there is a provision to take paper prints and then a livescan vendor can scan them in. Try looking in some of the finger print threads, possibly this one-Fingerprinting for CCI thread Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2atrainers Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:43 PM Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:43 PM Matt - Thanks for your help. I asked the same question in another thread but there was only conjecture for an answer. I have looked here in the forum and at the ISP site extensively for a more concrete answer but have found none. That's why I'd like to have the question posed directly to the ISP. Again, thanks. Erich2ATrainers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beezil Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:52 PM Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:52 PM yeah, thanks matt for consolidating the info and associated threads. very helpful. take care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw45 Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:54 PM Author Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:54 PM Matt - Thanks for your help. I asked the same question in another thread but there was only conjecture for an answer. I have looked here in the forum and at the ISP site extensively for a more concrete answer but have found none. That's why I'd like to have the question posed directly to the ISP. Again, thanks. Erich2ATrainers Added to the list of questions for todd and I've Im'd PDPSC for his input. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2atrainers Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:56 PM Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:56 PM Matt - thank you. Erich @ 2Atraibers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw45 Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:57 PM Author Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 03:57 PM yeah, thanks matt for consolidating the info and associated threads. very helpful. take care This forum and it's members have done so much for us it's the least I can do.I hate to admit it, but I didn't really get involved in the fight for CCW until just last year, and even then I feel like I haven't done my share.And it started out as just trying to get info together for myself, so it was kind of self serving. Just figured instead of making a checklist for myself I could offer it to the forum and get it Fact checked. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw45 Posted September 3, 2013 at 04:26 PM Author Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 04:26 PM According to PDPSC (our resident Live Scan vendor/expert), there is no mechanism for submitting fingerprints without visiting a live scan vendor. More for Todd to work on. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semper1911 Posted September 3, 2013 at 05:45 PM Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 05:45 PM Personal I got scanned today and well worth the hour drive, in and done 10 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjvandyke Posted September 3, 2013 at 06:55 PM Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 06:55 PM My father teaches NRA Basic Pistol course, and Personal Protection Inside the Home. Both these courses combined cover all the curriculum requirements for IL CCW, and total roughly 17 hours of class time. Is this acceptable? Not as it stands right now. Have you looked at the Concealed Carry License Curriculum Approval Form? The second 8 hours is completely IL specific with time restrictions, no relation to any other currently available class. Todd will have more info for us in the future. MattAre they time restrictions or minimums? Minimums are to me a guideline just like the NRA courses which have minimums. Also, you can add to the class as long as you don't not remove any of the nra material. So in reality, the 16hr ISP course could turn into a 20 hr course with everything included as well as questions/breaks/lunch etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobapunk Posted September 3, 2013 at 07:05 PM Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 07:05 PM Yes, if you take the ISP's section 1 - 3 and layer that up with NRA Basic Pistol, you will have a 10-12 hour class. Then you still need another 8. The intent (I believe) is to have NRA Basic Pistol REPLACE the first 8 hours, not coincide with it. My question is, If my training team has a curriculum that we made, following the ISP's outline, does every member of the training team need to submit a Curriculum Approval Application, or do we just submit one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdudez25 Posted September 3, 2013 at 07:58 PM Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 07:58 PM My father teaches NRA Basic Pistol course, and Personal Protection Inside the Home. Both these courses combined cover all the curriculum requirements for IL CCW, and total roughly 17 hours of class time. Is this acceptable? Not as it stands right now. Have you looked at the Concealed Carry License Curriculum Approval Form? The second 8 hours is completely IL specific with time restrictions, no relation to any other currently available class. Todd will have more info for us in the future. MattMakes sense. Numbers 4 and 5 seem to be Illinois specific. Is there a certification process such as a quiz for potential instructors to test their knowledge of the ccw legislation? Or do they just trust that you know it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly B. Posted September 3, 2013 at 08:53 PM Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 08:53 PM Yes, if you take the ISP's section 1 - 3 and layer that up with NRA Basic Pistol, you will have a 10-12 hour class. Then you still need another 8. The intent (I believe) is to have NRA Basic Pistol REPLACE the first 8 hours, not coincide with it. My question is, If my training team has a curriculum that we made, following the ISP's outline, does every member of the training team need to submit a Curriculum Approval Application, or do we just submit one? No. Just one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly B. Posted September 3, 2013 at 08:54 PM Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 08:54 PM My father teaches NRA Basic Pistol course, and Personal Protection Inside the Home. Both these courses combined cover all the curriculum requirements for IL CCW, and total roughly 17 hours of class time. Is this acceptable? Not as it stands right now. Have you looked at the Concealed Carry License Curriculum Approval Form? The second 8 hours is completely IL specific with time restrictions, no relation to any other currently available class. Todd will have more info for us in the future. MattMakes sense. Numbers 4 and 5 seem to be Illinois specific. Is there a certification process such as a quiz for potential instructors to test their knowledge of the ccw legislation? Or do they just trust that you know it? No test. No quiz. Just fill out the form, provide your credentials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly B. Posted September 3, 2013 at 08:57 PM Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 08:57 PM I think you guys are worried about Utah course. I am not going to accept it. If it is not 8 hours then I won't accept it You don't accept anything. You teach your course, period. The student submits all their certificates equaling 16 hours of approved courses to the ISP. If you have a prerequisite course the students must have before they take your course, that's up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobapunk Posted September 3, 2013 at 10:45 PM Share Posted September 3, 2013 at 10:45 PM Yes, if you take the ISP's section 1 - 3 and layer that up with NRA Basic Pistol, you will have a 10-12 hour class. Then you still need another 8. The intent (I believe) is to have NRA Basic Pistol REPLACE the first 8 hours, not coincide with it. My question is, If my training team has a curriculum that we made, following the ISP's outline, does every member of the training team need to submit a Curriculum Approval Application, or do we just submit one? No. Just one. THANKS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carry Trainer Posted September 5, 2013 at 11:55 PM Share Posted September 5, 2013 at 11:55 PM We went through our two courses; NACFI's Il Carry Course and NACFI's Basic Handgun course and found that our Basic Course works very well for 1-3. It also picks up some of section 5. Our Carry course cover much more than what is required. If it ends up being more that 8 hours, so be it. If the basic course ends up being a little short of 8 hours, so be it. I went through the NACFI courses and marked the slides where the material desired is covered. We can defend our curriculum as discussing every item on the list. We will discuss the items the way we believe they need to be presented. We will synthesize some into principles that will be easy for students to remember. We will focus on what the student needs to know and do to stay 10% within the law. Listing and discussing statutory rule-making and where funds have to go will only get very brief mention. This is the 5th permit to carry curriculum we have developed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragsbo Posted September 6, 2013 at 12:28 AM Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 12:28 AM Since the instructors will have to wait till January to file for their concealed permits like everyone else; will they also be required to attend 8 hrs training to get the training required or will they get credit for teaching? Will they have to at least do the shooting qualifications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobapunk Posted September 6, 2013 at 01:29 AM Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 01:29 AM We went through our two courses; NACFI's Il Carry Course and NACFI's Basic Handgun course and found that our Basic Course works very well for 1-3. It also picks up some of section 5. Our Carry course cover much more than what is required. If it ends up being more that 8 hours, so be it. If the basic course ends up being a little short of 8 hours, so be it. I went through the NACFI courses and marked the slides where the material desired is covered. We can defend our curriculum as discussing every item on the list. We will discuss the items the way we believe they need to be presented. We will synthesize some into principles that will be easy for students to remember. We will focus on what the student needs to know and do to stay 10% within the law. Listing and discussing statutory rule-making and where funds have to go will only get very brief mention. This is the 5th permit to carry curriculum we have developed. What about the other 90% of the time?Since the instructors will have to wait till January to file for their concealed permits like everyone else; will they also be required to attend 8 hrs training to get the training required or will they get credit for teaching? Will they have to at least do the shooting qualifications? The answers to tour questions are all in the law and have been answered on this board many times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RacerDave6 Posted September 6, 2013 at 01:41 AM Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 01:41 AM Since the instructors will have to wait till January to file for their concealed permits like everyone else; will they also be required to attend 8 hrs training to get the training required or will they get credit for teaching? Will they have to at least do the shooting qualifications?Read the bill.Instructors are exempt from all the training requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango7 Posted September 6, 2013 at 02:00 AM Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 02:00 AM Stop the administration from making up their own set of rules. We fought too hard to have the administration making up rules as they want. If it is not require by law, we are not required to teach it. This is a bogeyman that seems inherent in every piece of legislation... the phrase "the agency shall promulgate rules..." which alleviates the legislature from having to get down to the nickel, dime and cent level for everything. From the School Code: The Committee will be responsible for developing policy on matters of mutual concern to elementary, secondary and higher education... From the Environmental Protection Act: The Agency is authorized to promulgate such regulations and enter into such contracts as it may deem necessary... From the Wildlife Code: The Department is authorized to make rules and regulations for carrying out, administering and enforcing the provisions of this Act... And of course my favorite, the Police Training Act: The Board may make, amend and rescind such rules and regulations as may be necessary to carry out the provisions of this Act... So basically they give a blank check (or rather rulebook) to whatever entity they saddle with administering their new law, and let them use the obscurity of JCAR to flesh out the concept that is the law. Kind of like someone buying a piece of property and telling their crew "build me a house" (or a bank, or a grocery store) but not caring how many rooms it has, what color it is or how many stories. They probably figure as long as the rules are vaguely connected to "carry(ing) out the provisions" of the law, it can withstand any potential challenge and thus is GTG. Plus, their checkbook is bigger than most of the little people. They can always out-litigate any troublemakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw45 Posted September 6, 2013 at 02:35 AM Author Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 02:35 AM Stop the administration from making up their own set of rules. We fought too hard to have the administration making up rules as they want. If it is not require by law, we are not required to teach it. This is a bogeyman that seems inherent in every piece of legislation... the phrase "the agency shall promulgate rules..." which alleviates the legislature from having to get down to the nickel, dime and cent level for everything. I agree, but where in the FCCA does it say anything like that? I just scanned it a bit, mostly beginning and end and still didn't see it. Wouldn't be surprised that it was in their, but don't see it. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango7 Posted September 6, 2013 at 04:08 AM Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 04:08 AM I agree, but where in the FCCA does it say anything like that? I just scanned it a bit, mostly beginning and end and still didn't see it. Wouldn't be surprised that it was in their, but don't see it. Matt Section 95. Procurement; rulemaking. The Department shall adopt rules to implement theprovisions of this Act. The Department may adopt rulesnecessary to implement the provisions of this Act through theuse of emergency rulemaking in accordance with Section 5-45 ofthe Illinois Administrative Procedure Act for a period not toexceed 180 days after the effective date of this Act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw45 Posted September 6, 2013 at 04:14 AM Author Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 04:14 AM Thanks Tango. I still think/hope that we should have enough power left to fight this one. The law clearly states what needs to be taught. Drawing from holsters is no where in the 5 requirements. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Fife Posted September 6, 2013 at 04:27 AM Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 04:27 AM Geez, so they've got 6 months to come up with more emergencies? Move over Todd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragsbo Posted September 6, 2013 at 11:29 AM Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 11:29 AM Since the instructors will have to wait till January to file for their concealed permits like everyone else; will they also be required to attend 8 hrs training to get the training required or will they get credit for teaching? Will they have to at least do the shooting qualifications?Read the bill.Instructors are exempt from all the training requirements. I have read the bill but since they are making stuff up as they go, I see this being a problem too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka Posted September 6, 2013 at 12:18 PM Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 12:18 PM The ISP released outlines for 16 hours and 8 hours... If they allow Utah for 4 hours there will be a giant cluster... Specific 12 hour class only for people who already have Utah permits? They should just allow 8 And make it simpler, not more complicated. Yeah I agree. If the UT course is 4 hours, then the instructors would have to start creating a 4, 8 and 16 hour class. With all those combinations there is a great potential to miss something. There is no harm in sitting through an extra 4 hours of safety training boring and unpalatable as it may seem. I am planning on splitting the two days teaching the NRA Basic Pistol on Day 1 and IL CCW Specific stuff on day 2. Even if ISP dos not accept the NRA BP (why they would not makes NO sense) it covers everything that the ISP website says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka Posted September 6, 2013 at 12:25 PM Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 12:25 PM Question for the ISP: What provision, if any, is being made for out of state permit applicants to get their prints done? Will out of state applicants, without a trip to IL and a Live Scan vendor, be required to wait the additional 30 days for approval using paper prints or will paper prints, perhaps done by a law enforcement agency located near to the applicants home, be adequate to prevent undue delay? I think that part may become clear once ISP releases the forms and process for applicants in January 2014. Also take a look at out of state instructor requirements. I think the process for fingerprints will be the same. My understanding based on a quick Google search is that Live Scan is available nationwide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka Posted September 6, 2013 at 12:28 PM Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 12:28 PM I think you guys are worried about Utah course. I am not going to accept it. If it is not 8 hours then I won't accept it You don't accept anything. You teach your course, period. The student submits all their certificates equaling 16 hours of approved courses to the ISP. If you have a prerequisite course the students must have before they take your course, that's up to you. Exactly. You do not want to be the person deciding if a class taken by the student is valid or not. It is for ISP to decide and the student to figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw45 Posted September 6, 2013 at 12:32 PM Author Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 12:32 PM Question for the ISP: What provision, if any, is being made for out of state permit applicants to get their prints done? Will out of state applicants, without a trip to IL and a Live Scan vendor, be required to wait the additional 30 days for approval using paper prints or will paper prints, perhaps done by a law enforcement agency located near to the applicants home, be adequate to prevent undue delay? I think that part may become clear once ISP releases the forms and process for applicants in January 2014. Also take a look at out of state instructor requirements. I think the process for fingerprints will be the same. My understanding based on a quick Google search is that Live Scan is available nationwide. As far as I know right now there is no provision for out of state residents to get Live Scan printing done for IL CCW.The Issue isn't live scan vendors, it's live scan vendors who are connected to the ISP. Remember even police departments with Live Scan are not able to do civilian CCW printing without jumping through a lot of hoops. So just having the equipment does not mean that a vendor can do IL CCW printing. The vendor has to IL certified, have IL certified technicians, pay a bond/start an account with IL. As far as how it will work our for students, it's still a mess for instructors right now in so many ways, we will just have to wait and work on getting things straightened out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka Posted September 6, 2013 at 12:33 PM Share Posted September 6, 2013 at 12:33 PM Yes, if you take the ISP's section 1 - 3 and layer that up with NRA Basic Pistol, you will have a 10-12 hour class. Then you still need another 8. The intent (I believe) is to have NRA Basic Pistol REPLACE the first 8 hours, not coincide with it. My question is, If my training team has a curriculum that we made, following the ISP's outline, does every member of the training team need to submit a Curriculum Approval Application, or do we just submit one? If your team is teaching the same curriculum then I would think one. ISP is certifying the curriculum and the instructor separately. That means (at least to me) a certified instructor can teach the certified curriculum. :-) LOL I hope that is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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