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"Flash" mobs in downtown Chicago


vito

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Let me get you guys right. Bad guy displays knife and demands you give him your wallet, You fan your cover garment aside and reach for your gun, as you draw the bad guy sees the gun and drops the knife and throws his hands up AS YOU ARE DRAWING THE THREAT STOPS. Do you still shoot him just because "If I need to pull it, it is because I am going to use it." You need better training. Take a REAL holster class, try NRA Defensive Pistol or Personal Protection Outside the Home.
This whole discussion happened here months ago. Saying "don't draw if you don't feel you need to shoot" is not the same thing as saying "don't draw if you don't shoot." If the attacker drops his weapon and runs, and your reflexes are good enough to respond by not fully pressing the trigger, good on you! But if you draw your gun and the bad guy has time to stand there and monologue like a supervillain, you may have made a poor judgement of the threat level.

 

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It makes sense to give the bad guy a fraction of a second to drop his knife and or at least stop in his movement toward you. If drawing your gun does not make him stop in his tracks immediately or otherwise indicate that the threat has stopped, like dropping the knife, then further hesitation does not appear warranted at all before pulling the trigger. Of course, if the bad guy displays a gun rather than a knife, no hesitation at all is warranted since even a part of a second could mean your death as he pulls the trigger first.

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Once your mind is in the mode to draw and shoot, it's very difficult to stop that motion...particularly at the last moment. It only takes a few seconds to draw and shoot if you practice. And, we know reaction is slower than action. If a perpetrator drops the knife within a half second of the time you're going to pull the trigger, your mind may not be able to register that fact and stop the motion in time to avoid shooting.

Dropping a knife hasn't undone the crime the knife-wielder has committed himself to.

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Once your mind is in the mode to draw and shoot, it's very difficult to stop that motion...

This is why I recommend that CCL holders take the time for some advanced training from a certified holster instructor. Find an NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home instructor in your area. They are certified to teach NRA Defensive Pistol and NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home. These are both holster classes that award NRA Certificates for successful candidates.

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Once your mind is in the mode to draw and shoot, it's very difficult to stop that motion...

This is why I recommend that CCL holders take the time for some advanced training from a certified holster instructor. Find an NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home instructor in your area. They are certified to teach NRA Defensive Pistol and NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home. These are both holster classes that award NRA Certificates for successful candidates.

 

 

I'd never discourage training or play down the value. I think the scenario spelled out here isn't realistic.If someone is holding a knife on you and you pull out a gun, they're not going to drop it until they've already been shot. Because, once again, action is slower than reaction. By the time their mind registers that you have a gun and signals their hand to release the knife, you've already pulled the trigger.

 

Also, watch self-defense videos online. How many times do you see a CCL holder drop everything they have in their hands when the shooting starts? About half? Your natural inclination isn't to drop your personal effects when there's danger. It's to cling to your "stuff". Probably a perp will do the same.

 

 

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Once your mind is in the mode to draw and shoot, it's very difficult to stop that motion...

This is why I recommend that CCL holders take the time for some advanced training from a certified holster instructor. Find an NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home instructor in your area. They are certified to teach NRA Defensive Pistol and NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home. These are both holster classes that award NRA Certificates for successful candidates.

 

 

Also, watch self-defense videos online.

Ah, a youtube trained commando. You must be right.

 

The bad guy is 25 feet away and demands your wallet and displays a knife. Do you pull your gun and tell him to stop, or do you wait for him to get closer then draw and shoot, or do you draw and shoot when you see the knife?

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Once your mind is in the mode to draw and shoot, it's very difficult to stop that motion...

This is why I recommend that CCL holders take the time for some advanced training from a certified holster instructor. Find an NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home instructor in your area. They are certified to teach NRA Defensive Pistol and NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home. These are both holster classes that award NRA Certificates for successful candidates.

 

Also, watch self-defense videos online.

Ah, a youtube trained commando. You must be right.

 

The bad guy is 25 feet away and demands your wallet and displays a knife. Do you pull your gun and tell him to stop, or do you wait for him to get closer then draw and shoot, or do you draw and shoot when you see the knife?

 

I think every real life scenario is going to be different. I don’t believe that just because you draw your firearm means you must pull the trigger. These are just my beliefs.

Here is just one recorded incident of a “good” guy drawing a pistol and not shooting the threat who has a knife.

This is not to prove one train of thought or another. This could have gone many different ways. The decision to shoot lands at your feet and you have to use your skills and observations of the threat and surroundings accordingly.

 

https://youtu.be/zuqzH-hdWL4

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Once your mind is in the mode to draw and shoot, it's very difficult to stop that motion...This is why I recommend that CCL holders take the time for some advanced training from a certified holster instructor. Find an NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home instructor in your area. They are certified to teach NRA Defensive Pistol and NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home. These are both holster classes that award NRA Certificates for successful candidates. Also, watch self-defense videos online.Ah, a youtube trained commando. You must be right. The bad guy is 25 feet away and demands your wallet and displays a knife. Do you pull your gun and tell him to stop, or do you wait for him to get closer then draw and shoot, or do you draw and shoot when you see the knife?
If your expectation is that the bad guy is going to pull the knife 25 feet away and demand your wallet from there, I think it is YOU that has been watching too much YouTube. These things happen at contact distance. The margin for error and the boundary between life and death are razor thin. Muscle memory, reflexes, and instincts will be the most influential variables. I have heard at least one story of a cop coming close enough to shooting that he felt the ridges of his fingerprints grind across the serations on the trigger before he pulled back.Yes, training is a factor. An important one. But one of the things that training should be teaching you is that you may have less time to change your mind than it takes for the synapses to get the message. Another is that if you feel your life is in grave danger, you don't gave time to Devon guess yourself. A third is that once that striker releases or hammer falls and that bullet leaves the barrel, you own it and whatever it does to whomever it does it to.Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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Ah, a youtube trained commando. You must be right.

 

The bad guy is 25 feet away and demands your wallet and displays a knife. Do you pull your gun and tell him to stop, or do you wait for him to get closer then draw and shoot, or do you draw and shoot when you see the knife?

LOL, you've never been or known someone who's been jumped before, do you. Maybe in boomer times they stood 25ft back and kindly asked you to hand it over with a knife.

 

Now they distract you, while another member of their crew runs up behind you and pistol whips you in the back of your head. They all pitch in to take your stuff. Jumpers work in crews now and they use distraction techniques all the time. These aren't crackheads, these are well practiced professionals.

 

Now imagine these jacking crews x10. That's what these flashmobs are. Everyone doing the distracting and not the jacking is an innocent victim if you shoot them.

 

A lot of training is law enforcement and military style drills (not saying your training is the same, just generalizing). This does no good for a civilian as the laws apply differently, defacto and dejure.

 

As a civilian I'd say unarmed combat training would probably do you more good then armed training in getting out of a mob situation. Even if it's to put distance between a hoard to see who is the actual deadly threat.

 

Even just running on a treadmill so a fatty McAmerican doesn't find himself swarmed might do a lot of people some good. It always amazes me how out of shape perfectly able bodied people are in some of these advanced gun training classes. For those who can't run due to disabilities there is Bartitsu that teaches cane fighting techniques.

 

Training comes in many forms, the panaceum isn't just armed training. There are sometimes force on force threats that aren't always best met with deadly force.

 

Otherwise do what I do avoid stupid people, stupid places, stupid times, stupid things...

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Do any of you trigger jockeys feel that just because you pull your gun in self defense that you MUST shoot? That`s the point I`m trying to make. You may be able to use your gun to stop the threat without pulling the trigger. The scenario I used came from an NRA training film. It`s meant as an example, not the altered versions you envision. The best outcome would be to stop the threat WITHOUT being forced to take another`s life. If you can`t grasp that, then you need more training.

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Do any of you trigger jockeys feel that just because you pull your gun in self defense that you MUST shoot? That`s the point I`m trying to make. You may be able to use your gun to stop the threat without pulling the trigger. The scenario I used came from an NRA training film. It`s meant as an example, not the altered versions you envision. The best outcome would be to stop the threat WITHOUT being forced to take another`s life. If you can`t grasp that, then you need more training.

Absolutely true. If this was not true, there would be no such thing as a non-shooting defensive gun use.

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Do any of you trigger jockeys feel that just because you pull your gun in self defense that you MUST shoot? That`s the point I`m trying to make. You may be able to use your gun to stop the threat without pulling the trigger. The scenario I used came from an NRA training film. It`s meant as an example, not the altered versions you envision. The best outcome would be to stop the threat WITHOUT being forced to take another`s life. If you can`t grasp that, then you need more training.

The whole point of shooting in a defensive situation is not to kill the threat, it’s to STOP the threat.

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Do any of you trigger jockeys feel that just because you pull your gun in self defense that you MUST shoot? That`s the point I`m trying to make. You may be able to use your gun to stop the threat without pulling the trigger. The scenario I used came from an NRA training film. It`s meant as an example, not the altered versions you envision. The best outcome would be to stop the threat WITHOUT being forced to take another`s life. If you can`t grasp that, then you need more training.

The whole point of shooting in a defensive situation is not to kill the threat, it’s to STOP the threat.

 

BINGO or of not shooting if the result is the same.

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I think people are mincing words on the "don't draw unless you're going to shoot".

 

It's not a tactical idiom, it's a legal argument. Whether you shoot or not, the burden of proof on brandishing VS a self defense gun use is on the legitimacy of the threat.

 

If you're a sociopath you're probably not going to be convicted of shooting anyone you were within your right to draw on.

 

But most of us have a conscious and despite what the leftys claim we don't want anyone's blood on our hands.

 

That's where I agree training can help. Safely lengthening the window between drawing and deciding to take a life or not taking a life. And when the threat requires taking a life doing its in a way that puts you and others out of harms way.

 

Unless the training's law school I don't think it can make the difference between legally shooting and illegally shooting an intended target.

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Do any of you trigger jockeys feel that just because you pull your gun in self defense that you MUST shoot? That`s the point I`m trying to make. You may be able to use your gun to stop the threat without pulling the trigger. The scenario I used came from an NRA training film. It`s meant as an example, not the altered versions you envision. The best outcome would be to stop the threat WITHOUT being forced to take another`s life. If you can`t grasp that, then you need more training.
Construing our words to mean that if you draw you must shoot is just like antis construing us pushing to allow teachers to be armed as meaning that we want to arm ALL teachers, whether they want to be armed or not.

 

Read this one more time. Slowly. If you draw, you must be ready to shoot, possibly on reflex. If the threat ceases to be a threat within a time that allows you to bite back on your reflex, then not shooting is an option. But if you gave time to draw the pistol and monologue the bad guy (or listen to his momologue), you have probably made a poor choice to draw at all. You should not draw without the INTENT to shoot LAWFULLY. If you have determined that your life is in grave danger, the INTENT should never be to poi t a gun at the attacker and hope he wets himself and runs away. If that happens with enough time for you to refrain from pressing the trigger? Bonus for you! Less 'splaining to do.

 

In a self defense situation, hesitation kills. So does posturing.

 

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Do any of you trigger jockeys feel that just because you pull your gun in self defense that you MUST shoot? That`s the point I`m trying to make. You may be able to use your gun to stop the threat without pulling the trigger. The scenario I used came from an NRA training film. It`s meant as an example, not the altered versions you envision. The best outcome would be to stop the threat WITHOUT being forced to take another`s life. If you can`t grasp that, then you need more training.

 

If you draw, you must be ready to shoot, possibly on reflex. If the threat ceases to be a threat within a time that allows you to bite back on your reflex, then not shooting is an option. You should not draw without the INTENT to shoot LAWFULLY. If you have determined that your life is in grave danger, the INTENT should never be to poi t a gun at the attacker and hope he wets himself and runs away. If that happens with enough time for you to refrain from pressing the trigger? Bonus for you!

 

I agree with this part, except if the threat stopped why is shooting an option? I don`t know where you dreamed up the conversation. I really could care less if he wets his pants, I want him to STOP what he`s doing. If that can be accomplished with no shots fired, I win.

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Do any of you trigger jockeys feel that just because you pull your gun in self defense that you MUST shoot? That`s the point I`m trying to make. You may be able to use your gun to stop the threat without pulling the trigger. The scenario I used came from an NRA training film. It`s meant as an example, not the altered versions you envision. The best outcome would be to stop the threat WITHOUT being forced to take another`s life. If you can`t grasp that, then you need more training. If you draw, you must be ready to shoot, possibly on reflex. If the threat ceases to be a threat within a time that allows you to bite back on your reflex, then not shooting is an option. You should not draw without the INTENT to shoot LAWFULLY. If you have determined that your life is in grave danger, the INTENT should never be to poi t a gun at the attacker and hope he wets himself and runs away. If that happens with enough time for you to refrain from pressing the trigger? Bonus for you! I agree with this part, except if the threat stopped why is shooting an option? I don`t know where you dreamed up the conversation. I really could care less if he wets his pants, I want him to STOP what he`s doing. If that can be accomplished with no shots fired, I win.
Shooting is not an option at that point, it is a reality if his decision to cease hostilities does not give you enough reaction time to change your response. Or if tachypsychia prevents you from seeing him drop his weapon. Or if he is at contact distance and your view of his now dropped weapon is obstructed by his own body. Or if his attempts to get away from you by physical contact is perceived by you as a continuing physical assault.I think you are quite deliberately missing the point here, and I am not going to continue to argue with you about it. If your preferred defense is draw and monologue on the knife attacker 25 feet away from you, more power to you. I am going to continue to train as needed to survive in this reality.Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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The bad guy is 25 feet away and demands your wallet and displays a knife. Do you pull your gun and tell him to stop, or do you wait for him to get closer then draw and shoot, or do you draw and shoot when you see the knife?

 

A few of you have attacked the question but know one has answered. Why? The question assumes retreat is not an option.

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The bad guy is 25 feet away and demands your wallet and displays a knife. Do you pull your gun and tell him to stop, or do you wait for him to get closer then draw and shoot, or do you draw and shoot when you see the knife?

 

 

 

A few of you have attacked the question but know one has answered. Why? The question assumes retreat is not an option.

No one answered it because attacker's don't pull knives out while 25 feet away and start monologuing. That is not the world we live in. The knife comes out as it is about to get plunged into your gut, assuming he gives you the courtesy of not plunging it into your back. Your hypothetical situation simply does not happen.

 

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Ah, a youtube trained commando. You must be right.

 

The bad guy is 25 feet away and demands your wallet and displays a knife. Do you pull your gun and tell him to stop, or do you wait for him to get closer then draw and shoot, or do you draw and shoot when you see the knife?

 

 

I'm asking you to look at real life situations caught on video. I'm not saying that's a substitute for training. But it is EVIDENCE that should advise our thinking.

 

I've never seen a single video where someone has robbed a person with a knife from such an incredible distance. But, if you can provide evidence of 25-foot knife attacks, I sure would like to see it. A knife is a very personal weapon. It's not effective unless it's brought into the fight at closer than 20 feet and without warning. Most criminals will bring it out at a much closer distance. Most criminals use guns at a far closer distance.

 

I draw and shoot when I see a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. That's the standard. I'm not the police. I'm not in the business of crime stopping, arresting criminals, disarming them, or holding them at gunpoint for police until they arrive. I don't pull my gun and issue orders. If there's no reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, that action could get you an assault with a deadly weapon charge.

 

I've stated nothing but facts. Reaction is slower than action. It takes the human mind at least a half second to register and react to what it sees. These aren't my opinions.

 

How long from the time you reveal the weapon to the time you pull the trigger is there? I'm asking you. Presuming there's a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, how long is it between the moment the criminal sees your gun and the moment you put a round on him? I'm talking about distances less than 10 feet. At that distance, you're not going to use your sights, are you? How long?

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I hope the folks that won't carry in Condition 1 are reading this thread. While I have never been the victim of an actual attack, I am willing to accept as wisdom the statement that things happen very, very fast. Needing a bit of time to draw and at least point my gun and pull the trigger is hopefully something I can accomplish once I have determined that there is a threat. I would not count on having the extra time it takes to rack the slide to chamber a round. Nor do I use the manual safety on any of my guns that have such a device.

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Ah, a youtube trained commando. You must be right.

 

The bad guy is 25 feet away and demands your wallet and displays a knife. Do you pull your gun and tell him to stop, or do you wait for him to get closer then draw and shoot, or do you draw and shoot when you see the knife?

 

 

I'm asking you to look at real life situations caught on video. I'm not saying that's a substitute for training. But it is EVIDENCE that should advise our thinking.

 

I've never seen a single video where someone has robbed a person with a knife from such an incredible distance. But, if you can provide evidence of 25-foot knife attacks, I sure would like to see it. A knife is a very personal weapon. It's not effective unless it's brought into the fight at closer than 20 feet and without warning. Most criminals will bring it out at a much closer distance. Most criminals use guns at a far closer distance.

 

I draw and shoot when I see a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. That's the standard. I'm not the police. I'm not in the business of crime stopping, arresting criminals, disarming them, or holding them at gunpoint for police until they arrive. I don't pull my gun and issue orders. If there's no reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, that action could get you an assault with a deadly weapon charge.

 

I've stated nothing but facts. Reaction is slower than action. It takes the human mind at least a half second to register and react to what it sees. These aren't my opinions.

 

How long from the time you reveal the weapon to the time you pull the trigger is there? I'm asking you. Presuming there's a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, how long is it between the moment the criminal sees your gun and the moment you put a round on him? I'm talking about distances less than 10 feet. At that distance, you're not going to use your sights, are you? How long?

 

It`s a simple question, why is it so hard to answer? Your opinion is your`s. What would you do if my example?

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