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Optimal expansion or optimal penetration?


vito

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What do you use in your carry gun, hollow point for optimal expansion, or FMJ for optimal penetration? I'll admit I never real thought much about this, and always have used hollow point, self defense rounds such as Speer Gold Dot or Hornady Critical Defense. But I have been wondering if possibly I would be better off for either my LC9s or my S&W 642 (the two guns I am most likely to be carrying) to switch to a higher penetrating FMJ. Up until now, I have always seen FMJ as target ammo for the range. I'd appreciate some of the wisdom of our members here.

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Question. Do you want to stop the perpetrator or go through the perpetrator and hit someone else? I would always opt for a made for personal defense.
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In my 9mm I carry Hornady 124 XTP, it is a simple hollow point that feeds very well, has a uniform speed on a chronograph and shoots excellent for me. In my experience it will expand and kill raccoons quicker than the 115 Critical Defense or the 115 gr Corbon self defense loads. The best part is that it is much cheaper than virtually any reputable self defense ammunition on the market.

If it weren't for that ammunition I would carry Federal 135 gr HST or the Hornady 135 Critical Duty.... but they are more expensive and don't stop raccoons near as well.

 

I used to have chickens and had a very bad raccoon problem, my 9mm Springfield is practically always on my hip therefore it has gotten alot of use dispatching invading raccoons at night. Over the years I've just found the XTP to perform very well.

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You never want to use FMJ for self defense. You want a hollow point that both expands well and penetrates deep enough to get the job done. That's not hard to do in a full sized pistol, pretty much all premium self defense rounds will do that. But obviously you're asking about compacts with shorter barrel lengths. Those present problems only because of the lose of velocity you get in a shorter barrel, not from the bullet design.

 

However that being said, in 9mm I don't really think the shorter barrel affect performance all that much. Use what you're using and it will be fine. Or you can grab some +P ammo if you would like to bump up the velocity.

 

There's a whole Youtube channel that all the guy did was do ballistics testing with rounds out of short barrel concealed carry guns. https://www.youtube.com/user/ShootingTheBull410

Go immerse yourself in it. Best of luck.

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I use Federal Guard Dog rounds. They are basically hollow points with a "cover" that will go through leather etc and then expand. Regular hollow points can jam up in denim or leather, and then they act like FMJs and just keep on flying. These look like wadcutter rounds, and feed as well as anything I've seen. Kind of hard to find, for some reason. If you see them somewhere, buy 'em up.

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I view the use of modern hollow point ammunition as a personal responsibility to both myself and the public at large. Modern HP ammo is much more likely to expand despite clothing, and the expansion has two complimentary effects. First it delivers the damage necessary to stop the threat. Then, the added surface area slows the round down and makes it far less likely to remain dangerous to any unseen people beyond the targeted threat.

I've made a conscious decision to use Winchester RA9T, Gold Dot, or Federal HST in all defensive 9mm guns. My .380 has a Hornady XTP round. These rounds have all been thoroughly tested and show they meet FBI standards for penetration, and beyond that they are among the most reliable expanding rounds in denim and gelatin testing.

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Never use FMJ for defense unless you are shooting a .25. For the .380 the best hollow point is the Hornady 90 gr. XTP. I also have the XTP .230 gr in my .45.

 

I would like to try some of the Fed. HST in my .45.

 

Edit: I see TRJ got posted before me because I am a slow typer. LOL

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I use Federal Guard Dog rounds. Kind of hard to find, for some reason. If you see them somewhere, buy 'em up.

LOL Exactly why they're hard to find?

 

LOL all you want. Some of the best LEO Gold Dot stuff is very hard to get these days too. Doesn't mean it's not any good, that's for sure, especially for short barrel use.

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I use Federal Guard Dog rounds. Kind of hard to find, for some reason. If you see them somewhere, buy 'em up.

LOL Exactly why they're hard to find?

 

LOL all you want. Some of the best LEO Gold Dot stuff is very hard to get these days too. Doesn't mean it's not any good, that's for sure, especially for short barrel use.

 

Check the reviews on Guard Dog. You will then want to own them. I won't sell you any. LOL

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I get the sense you feel like this was laughing at you...I think you missed the joke. They're hard to find because when people find them they buy them up as you suggested...

 

 

 

 

I use Federal Guard Dog rounds. Kind of hard to find, for some reason. If you see them somewhere, buy 'em up.

LOL Exactly why they're hard to find?

 

LOL all you want. Some of the best LEO Gold Dot stuff is very hard to get these days too. Doesn't mean it's not any good, that's for sure, especially for short barrel use.

 

 

As to the other remarks, shopping online makes it pretty easy to find anything.

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Penetration is only needed to get to the "good stuff" inside the body where the expansion is needed to do as much damage to the "good stuff" as possible to stop the threat as soon as possible. If the bullet just plows straight through with out doing a lot of damage to the "good stuff" then it will not stop the threat as soon as possible and could possible hit something beyond that you do not want to. So unless you are in a location where grizzly bears are just as much threat as the local gang banger, go with the expansion.

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I have had a discussion online with another individual who does extensive terminal ballistics testing and these are his findings. They exactly match what I've written about previously on multiple occasions regarding the Xtreme series bullets loaded by Underwood with regards to being both equal or superior in penetration, wound cavity size (expansion of cavitation in ballistic medium), and overall effectiveness in tissue (or tissue-like) mediums:

 

Note: These are not my test results, but rather the text results from an independent third-party who spent about 50 hours doing testing on more than 30 rounds.

 

Top 6 Defensive Rounds in 45acp, 40s&w, 9mm, 380acp (37 top tier brands tested)

 

Medium used: 10% Ordinance Gelatin blocks, 5 shots each brand averaged, 3.6" barrel, 3 layers denim, pork ribs.

 

Caliber Brand Grains Type Permanent Stretch Permanent Stretch Overall Average FT/LBS

Cavity Diameter Cavity Length Depth Velocity Energy

45acp Underwood 120 Extreme Defender +P 3.6 11.7 16.7 1409 531

45acp Fiocchi 230 XTP 1.3 9 18.1 817 414

45acp Remington 230 Golden Saber Bonded 1.3 7 18.2 814 391

45acp Winchester 230 Ranger T Series +P 1 8.5 14.4 904 495

45acp Remington 185 Golden Saber +P 1 7 15.7 1019 534

45acp Federal 230 HST 1 7 13.4 822 404

45acp Speer 200 Gold Dot +P 0.9 5.5 13.8 982 439

 

40s&w Underwood 100 Extreme Defender 3.2 12.3 17.9 1497 499

40s&w Winchester 165 PDX1 Defender 1.1 7 15.1 1066 476

40s&w Speer 180 Gold Dot 1.1 5 14.3 955 420

40s&w Winchester 180 PDX Defender 0.9 7 16.3 995 420

40s&w Winchester 180 Train & Defend 0.8 8 15.1 890 342

40s&w Remington 180 Golden Saber 0.8 7 13.9 924 412

40s&w Magtech 180 Bonded 0.9 5.5 16.4 925 393

 

9mm Underwood 90 Extreme Defender +P 2.6 10.7 15.9 1465 435

9mm Underwood 65 Extreme Defender +P 2.4 9.8 18 1786 494

9mm Federal 124 HST +P 1 8 17.9 1168 364

9mm Remington 124 Golden Saber +P 0.9 8 17.9 1170 384

9mm Federal 124 Hydra Shok 0.9 8 17.6 962 326

9mm Federal 135 Premium Hydra Shok 0.9 7 18.8 1074 337

9mm Federal 124 Premium HST 0.8 7 18.4 1135 364

9mm PVRI 147 Partizan 1 7 17.2 836 316

 

380acp Underwood 65 Extreme Defender +P 2.1 9.4 14.2 1400 278

380acp Remington 88 HTP 0.6 3 12.9 840 191

380acp Hornady 90 Custom XTP 0.6 3 14.2 910 200

 

About Underwood:

 

Other than Underwood, each competitor above is the current Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) market leader in permanent wound cavitation. The obvious winner above is Underwood Extreme Defender. Underwood is the only round above that is non-expanding. This round produces results exceeding 100% of any expanding round on the market today. Not only is the "permanent wound cavity" diameter twice the size as any competing round but it also maintains that same wound diameter stretching 10"-13" in length. Underwood is able to achieve superior results because of it's advanced design using a fluted tip which diverts hydraulic pressure outwards as it enters flesh. Underwood's felt recoil is about 15-20% less due to a much lighter projectile. Double taps and re-sight acquisition are greatly enhanced from reduced muzzle flip. Your carry gun is much lighter since it has lighter rounds in the magazine as oposed to standard JHP ammo. Flash suppressed powder and cleaner burn. Almost identical results regardless if a barrier exists. Same penetration depth through glass, wood, 22-gauge sheet metal, sheet rock, bone or denim. Its a copper projectile, so no lead. The copper projectile retains 100% of its weight even through barriers. Its a II-A armour peicing round. Doesn't over penetrate (within FBI specs 12"-18").

 

Here's a video showing its performance in actual live wild hog targets:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIJ4S-sUzNA&feature=youtu.be

 

 

-------------------------------

And, here is a summation of my testing results in pig carcasses on another online forum regarding the Underwood Xtreme loadings, as well as touching on their loading of the Lehigh Maximum Expansion all-copper hollowpoint, which is by far the best hollow point that I've tested, again in hog cadavers:

 

I've shot .380, 9mm, .40 S&W, 9x25 Dillon, 10mm, .45, and .460 Rowland in whatever versions of the Xtreme Defender/Xtreme Penetrator/Xtreme Hunter rounds from Underwood are available for each caliber, into fresh hog carcasses, alongside the usual JHP suspects such as Ranger-T, Gold Dots, XTP, Bonded JHP, HST, hard cast, and soft lead, then dissected the carcasses to check the terminal ballistics and wound channels in flesh.

 

Without exception, the Underwood loadings of the Lehigh projectiles do superior damage to soft tissue, vastly superior damage to bone (turning it into shrapnel when it hits, creating numerous secondary wound tracks, and the worst organ damage I have seen handgun rounds inflict. They will do that through heavy clothing, auto glass, car doors, sheet metal, wall material such as wood board and drywall, and even ballistic protective material (up to soft Level IIIA for the 10mm, 9x25, and .460 Rowland). The faster these type of projectiles are driven, the more effective they are and the greater the wounding mechanism that this type of round delivers. Compared to Lehigh's loadings, the Underwood versions are far superior due to the greater velocities that Underwood loads them to (and I have chrono-ed all of them, to faster than listed on the boxes in many instances). So, go with the +P or +P+ loadings if they are available.

 

Additionally, I have never had a pass-through on the pig carcasses with even the Xtreme Penetrators, except in the 9x25 occasionally and the .460 Rowland (which blow through with unbelievable damage), which I use as my field rounds that I would employ against bear or other large predators, where deep penetration is vital.

 

The only hollow point that seems to match it is the Underwood loadings of the Maximum Expansion all-copper hollow points, whether in .380, 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45. Those are superior in barrier penetration to any traditional JHP that I have tested, and how they expand into four razor sharp "fan-blades" slices and disrupts tissue amazingly.

 

Also, I have tested these against the ARX rounds, and while those are decent, they don't have nearly the barrier blindness or structural tissue damage capabilities that Underwood's Lehigh Xtreme loadings do.

 

I know what these will do in actual tissue, so in the unfortunate necessity of needing to use them to protect myself, I carry .40, 10mm, and .460 Rowland as my EDC ammunition, depending on if I am in urban or field settings, and I am more than confident that anything that I shoot with them will receive the most effective self-defense round I can acquire.

 

I don't have any affiliation with Underwood or Lehigh, by the way. I'm just an ex-military/tactical security guy who also happens to have worked in research fields for many years, and I thoroughly test anything that I use for important purposes, and I can think of nothing more vital than protecting me and my own. So you better believe that I have put these through their paces and they have passed with flying colors.

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What it appears to me, based on my understanding of physics and fluid dynamics, as well as my observations of the wounds, is that the forward momentum of the round is transferred by the flutes to the medium through which it travels, the same way a propeller would fling water out of the way—or anything that is caught by them rotating at about 50,000–100,000 rpm.

 

I simulated this once by taking a very high-speed motor from a very powerful vacuum cleaner and attaching a Phillips head screwdriver bit to the motor's shaft. It was probably 20,000 rpm in that configuration, and I dumped a cup of chicken bone pieces, guts, and that Jello-like collagen-rich goop onto the point of the screwdriver. Little pieces and jets of meat flew off of it when the flutes on the screwdriver bit caught them, hard enough to embed bone chips and even meat into the heavy wood boards and inch-thick acrylic that I was using as a splatter shield. Imagine it as a little propeller; what happens if you throw a handful of pebbles into a fan blade? Or spray water on it? It gets flung out to the sides at a high speed. Same thing happens with the flutes on these projectiles, only much, much faster.

 

Now, imagine something spinning 2 to 5 times faster than that, traveling through flesh and fluids and bone at 1,000+ fps, and flinging the material that it is chewing up at those speeds. The surrounding tissue is going to be cut, disrupted, and shredded by even liquid traveling that fast, to say nothing of hard bits of cartilage, sharp bone fragments, and other pieces of fast-moving tissue.

 

The reason they don't over penetrate like a FMJ or other non-expanding round is that because the projectile is not being continually spun by a motor or some other source of rotational power, the forward momentum is rapidly converted to horizontal, rotational force that the flutes transfer to the fluid and flesh around it, which slows it down very quickly. The larger the flutes, the faster the transfer of energy, which is why the Xtreme Defenders don't penetrate as deeply as the Xtreme Penetrators; the former has larger flutes and a lighter projectile, while the latter have a heavier projectile and smaller flutes. The Xtreme Hunters have larger flutes but a heavier bullet, so it penetrates somewhere between the two in terms of depth, I have found.

 

And the more solid/thicker/denser the medium through which the rounds travel, the harder it is going to be for those blades to turn, and the faster the projectile will slow down.

 

In meat and bone, that's pretty quick, but there is a LOT of damage done from all of that rotational energy being transferred to the medium (a body) in which it is traveling terminally.

--------------

I was doing some work with a tactical security/military contractor organization, and came across the Lehighs and Underwood loadings doing research for them for a barrier-blind carry loading. I told them what I needed for testing and then did an extensive series of evals and experiments, and the Lehigh/Underwoods came out on top in real-world conditions.

 

It's also how I know they will work "in the field" because the folks I did the testing for currently use them, and the results are impressive and effective.

 

As for my screwdriver experiment, I'm an empricist, so I wanted to see just how the mechanism worked in theory. I have a pretty well-stocked workshop, and I can get access to pretty much any materials I need, so I approximated the cross-tip profile of the Lehigh projectiles and did some rotational calculations, and tried to find the fastest motor I could get a hold of. Even with the conservative rotational rate of 20,000 rpm that the vacuum motor produced, the spin-off achieved some pretty impressive velocity and damage. I also tested it with a pork shoulder next to the spinning Phillips bit and the bone and meat shrapnel embedded into it surprisingly deep.

 

So, imagine what something going potentially over 100,000 rpm will do, with flutes that are designed to maximize the rotational energy transfer in a ballistic application.

-------------

The 14-18" rotation distance would actually be through a non- or minimally resistant medium, such as air. The reason for that is that the rotation rate will slow down much less quickly than the forward momentum, which will cause multiple rotations during that travel distance as the forward momentum is converted to horizontal force transfer. It's especially noticeable in this video by Lehigh Defense showing both the Xtreme Penetrator and Defender:
Note that especially with the Xtreme Penetrator it is visible that there are far more than a just two rotations in the 30"+ inches the projectile travels; it looks like as many as 6 rotations. With the Xtreme Defender, it's about 3 rotations during 18" of forward travel. So, you get that "blender" effect, but also a "cutting jet" effect as tissue and fluids (and bone/cartilage fragments creating secondary wound paths if it hits those in actual flesh) are flung off at about 2-3 times the forward velocity of the projectile. The reason that the Defender's wound channels are so much larger is that the flutes have commensurately more surface area and a steeper pitch, so the energy transfer from forward to horizontal through the flung-off material happens more precipitously. Thus, it decelerates more rapidly and more force is transferred in a shorter amount of time, the same way that hitting a harder object slows you down more quickly during a fall, causing more damage than a slower deceleration would.
So. from what I observed from close examination of the tissue is that it got both pulverized by the spinning flutes and that tissue got flung off at such high velocities that it served to cause damage to the surrounding tissue that was in its path as it blasted into them.
It's really a fantastic use of physics and fluid dynamics as a wounding mechanism, something that happens on a much smaller scale with rotating expanded hollow points (which also "propeller" through tissue and fluid, but don't redirect their forward momentum horizontally nearly as efficiently as a projectile with hard, specifically shaped surfaces optimized to do so will).
In any event, if one even marginally understands what it does and why, it's impossible to deny that it's very effective and has multiple wounding mechanisms. We haven't even gotten to talking about the fact that this kind of round, traveling faster than most similar caliber handgun rounds, more effectively causing a hydrostatic shock effect similar to what faster rounds such as rifle bullets will do from sheer velocity when hitting and displacing tissue and fluids in the closed system of the body and circulatory system. Fluids, as you know, are non-compressible, so the more quickly the force is transferred, the greater the effect it will have in shoving blood and elastic tissue out of the way at extremely high speeds.
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As a final note, regarding hollow point performance, here are some videos with the most "realistic" simulated human body medium gel targets, complete with ribs and organs, showing Lehigh Maximum Expansion rounds both on their own and compared to industry standard traditional JHP rounds. These show that all-copper hollow points with directed expansion are superior in penetration, performance, and consistency to lead and copper JHPs.

 

 

 

 

 

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I have three types of rounds for my 9mm.

*Random FMJ for the range (Blazer, Federal, whatever is under $.20/round)

*IMI DI-CUT JHP This is what is in my gun right now, but it is really "SHTF" ammo.

*Streak Ammo - This was going to be my carry ammo, but Shoot Point Blank would not let me test it. I won't load it until I try it out. They make 9mm HP tracers. Their tracers are not supposed to NOT generate heat, and can only be seen from the rear. Sounds like the PERFECT carry/HD ammo...on paper at least.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/18/streak-visual-ammunition-nonflammable-tracers/

 

I have about 5 different types of rounds for my AR's.....but my 10.5" pistol is loaded with 5.56 55gr HP (Frontier's Open Tip Match...which isn't a true HP, but frags well before 2600 FPS) as an HD round.

 

Full disclosure...I have had my CCL for some time now, but I've only "carried" once...and that was from my bedroom to the garage on the day I got my CCL....about 20 seconds. I have a couple of lock boxes in my vehicle, and being able to keep my 9mm with me was the main reason why I got it. With 9mm in my vehicle, my AR pistol with a crazy bright Streamlight TLR-1 High Luman light on it is now my main HD weapon...hence the particular 5.56 ammo. Let's hope I never have to shoot it, or everyone in the house will be deaf and blind....even with "KAK type" can on it.

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You never want to use FMJ for self defense.

This. There is NOTHING optimal about using FMJ in any way for any defensive application, with reasonable defensive calibers.

 

The only exception would be for something like .25acp or .32acp, where even FMJ is hard pressed to get adequate penetration.

 

In 9mm FMJ would be the worse possible choice. Poor terminal effects and lots of excessive penetration.

 

Some may find this blunt, but - remember that in a defensive shooting in public, likely the only safe backstop is the threat. If you know ahead of time that that backstop won't stop your defensive ammo, you have a problem.

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You never want to use FMJ for self defense.

This. There is NOTHING optimal about using FMJ in any way for any defensive application, with reasonable defensive calibers.The only exception would be for something like .25acp or .32acp, where even FMJ is hard pressed to get adequate penetration.In 9mm FMJ would be the worse possible choice. Poor terminal effects and lots of excessive penetration.Some may find this blunt, but - remember that in a defensive shooting in public, likely the only safe backstop is the threat. If you know ahead of time that that backstop won't stop your defensive ammo, you have a problem.

This. The answer to the title of the post is: BOTH. There is no reason not to look at quality bonded ammo from reputable, proven sources. Data from the FBI, military, and other sources is extensive, and readily available.

 

Winchester PDX1, Federal HST, Speer Gold Dots, etc, etc, are commonly available in stores and on line. A bit of research for a person's specific requirements goes a long way. We are living in GREAT times to have great ammo. No need to compromise.

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I shudder at some of the stuff that people come up with as defensive ammo. People buy into so much snake oil it's incredible.

 

I'm not going to try to sell you on whatever exact ammo I use, because the exact ammo is unimportant. What I'd suggest that people give though to is whether something is made by a known, reputable ammunition manufacturer, designed for defensive use, meets the FBI specs, and preferably is in use by major LE agencies. So what I'm suggesting is to take a look at ammo like Winchester Ranger-T, Federal HST, and Hornady Critical Duty. Or well-known loadings like Federal 9BP, which in it's BP9LE +P+ loading used to be the ISP duty load before they changed to 40S&W.

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This. There is NOTHING optimal about using FMJ in any way for any defensive application, with reasonable defensive calibers.The only exception would be for something like .25acp or .32acp, where even FMJ is hard pressed to get adequate penetration.In 9mm FMJ would be the worse possible choice. Poor terminal effects and lots of excessive penetration.Some may find this blunt, but - remember that in a defensive shooting in public, likely the only safe backstop is the threat. If you know ahead of time that that backstop won't stop your defensive ammo, you have a problem.

This. The answer to the title of the post is: BOTH. There is no reason not to look at quality bonded ammo from reputable, proven sources. Data from the FBI, military, and other sources is extensive, and readily available.

 

Winchester PDX1, Federal HST, Speer Gold Dots, etc, etc, are commonly available in stores and on line. A bit of research for a person's specific requirements goes a long way. We are living in GREAT times to have great ammo. No need to compromise.

 

 

I shudder at some of the stuff that people come up with as defensive ammo. People buy into so much snake oil it's incredible.

 

I'm not going to try to sell you on whatever exact ammo I use, because the exact ammo is unimportant. What I'd suggest that people give though to is whether something is made by a known, reputable ammunition manufacturer, designed for defensive use, meets the FBI specs, and preferably is in use by major LE agencies. So what I'm suggesting is to take a look at ammo like Winchester Ranger-T, Federal HST, and Hornady Critical Duty. Or well-known loadings like Federal 9BP, which in it's BP9LE +P+ loading used to be the ISP duty load before they changed to 40S&W.

 

I tested all of those, as did the other tester whose results I posted. All of them are inferior to the all-copper hollow points and fluid transfer monolithic rounds, especially in smaller, less powerful calibers. Not only are they less effective, but greatly so. Not to mention that they are prone to failure going through barriers and heavy clothing, to say nothing of utterly being unable to penetrate even the most common and weakest of standard ballistic protective measures.

 

Folks want "real world" results and testing, but when they get it in exhaustive and definitive detail, hide-bound and dogmatic viewpoints prevent them from actually processing the information that renders their original viewpoint moot or invalid.

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Color me skeptical. I'm still waiting for the ultimate penetrator or defender to be widely adopted by law enforcement. A subject matter expert in court should be able to speak to the long history of acceptance of a given defensive load by the law enforcement community. I don't think having a load capable of defeating soft armor is going to beat a manslaughter charge as easily as it won the gunfight. I think the loads have a place when out hunting and for a WOROL scenario, but until they achieve widespread adoption as mainstream by law enforcement or a pile of clean citizen defensive shootings I don't think there's a reason for me to adopt these latest/greatest projectiles.

 

I will say they do make .380 less of a compromise. If I was to move to the next level, it would be in the .380.

 

They really need to rename the ultimate penetrator too. Screams of over penetration death machine. That's not good with a jury.

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What do you use in your carry gun, hollow point for optimal expansion, or FMJ for optimal penetration? I'll admit I never real thought much about this, and always have used hollow point, self defense rounds such as Speer Gold Dot or Hornady Critical Defense.

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Penetration usually isn't the problem, it's overpenetration that has poor wounding and liability.

 

While not perfect the FBI penetration test is IMO still the gold standard.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/FBI%20Ammunition%20Protocol/FBI%20Ammunition%20Protocol.html

 

Stay away from the gimmicky stuff and stick with the tried and true (and tested against the FBI ammunition protocol).

 

Jacketed hollow points. If carried in the car bonded jacketed hollow point, trade overpenetration risk with keeping the jacket and penetration when shooting through windshields.

 

Speer gold dot, Winchester Ranger Same eXact Thing as black Talons, Winchester Ranger Bonded, Winchester PDX (same as Ranger Bonded but marketed towards non LE), etc.

 

Evidence? Ever notice the thug to police shots/death ratio? For whatever reason guns are easier to get then ammo and thugs usually shoot a mismatch of JHP's. Police shootings are almost always fatal despite the fact that cops aren't known for their marksmanship.

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Color me skeptical. I'm still waiting for the ultimate penetrator or defender to be widely adopted by law enforcement. A subject matter expert in court should be able to speak to the long history of acceptance of a given defensive load by the law enforcement community. I don't think having a load capable of defeating soft armor is going to beat a manslaughter charge as easily as it won the gunfight. I think the loads have a place when out hunting and for a WOROL scenario, but until they achieve widespread adoption as mainstream by law enforcement or a pile of clean citizen defensive shootings I don't think there's a reason for me to adopt these latest/greatest projectiles.

 

I will say they do make .380 less of a compromise. If I was to move to the next level, it would be in the .380.

 

They really need to rename the ultimate penetrator too. Screams of over penetration death machine. That's not good with a jury.

 

The tactical security/private military contractor group I know uses the Xtreme Defenders and Penetrators, and Maximum Expansion rounds, in live field operations and package protection work, based on the results of my testing. Those are folks who, in the course of one year, engage in more live fire engagements than the entire CPD does, and they're 70 guys versus 13,000 for the CPD. I've seen quite a few, and by that I mean dozens, of body cam videos of engagements where those rounds have been used, and they work extremely well on live targets.

 

Regardless, you're not likely to see the CPD, or any major police department use high-end, high-tech ammunition, both for political and economic reasons. Not to mention that literally no police department has done anywhere near the testing that someone like me, or that other guy whose work I quoted, has done. However, you will find an increasing number of private security and military contractors using them, if for nothing else that these are barrier blind and allow for better tactical shooting due to lighter bullet weights.

 

Quite frankly, when it comes to actually doing the science and applying it to advancements in ballistics, law enforcement, including on the Federal level, are hidebound and unimaginative, not to mention stuck in the past adhering to the rare few times when they actually did that kind of thing. They think they're done and don't keep up with progress.

 

And the FBI standard, with plain gel testing and no internal bone or organ simulations, pales in comparison to shooting them into actual carcasses, or in the research I quoted above, gel with pork ribs. The video of the live hog being shot shows just how effective and the type of damage that they do, which is far more effective than JHPs. Not to mention, unless you've cut open a few dozen pig carcasses and directly and closely examined the wound channels, the way I have, you're less of an authority or well versed than I am, meaning I AM a subject matter expert on how they perform in real flesh, bone, and blood.

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Color me skeptical. I'm still waiting for the ultimate penetrator or defender to be widely adopted by law enforcement. A subject matter expert in court should be able to speak to the long history of acceptance of a given defensive load by the law enforcement community. I don't think having a load capable of defeating soft armor is going to beat a manslaughter charge as easily as it won the gunfight. I think the loads have a place when out hunting and for a WOROL scenario, but until they achieve widespread adoption as mainstream by law enforcement or a pile of clean citizen defensive shootings I don't think there's a reason for me to adopt these latest/greatest projectiles.

I will say they do make .380 less of a compromise. If I was to move to the next level, it would be in the .380.

They really need to rename the ultimate penetrator too. Screams of over penetration death machine. That's not good with a jury.

 

The tactical security/private military contractor group I know uses the Xtreme Defenders and Penetrators, and Maximum Expansion rounds, in live field operations and package protection work, based on the results of my testing. Those are folks who, in the course of one year, engage in more live fire engagements than the entire CPD does, and they're 70 guys versus 13,000 for the CPD. I've seen quite a few, and by that I mean dozens, of body cam videos of engagements where those rounds have been used, and they work extremely well on live targets.

 

Regardless, you're not likely to see the CPD, or any major police department use high-end, high-tech ammunition, both for political and economic reasons. Not to mention that literally no police department has done anywhere near the testing that someone like me, or that other guy whose work I quoted, has done. However, you will find an increasing number of private security and military contractors using them, if for nothing else that these are barrier blind and allow for better tactical shooting due to lighter bullet weights.

 

Quite frankly, when it comes to actually doing the science and applying it to advancements in ballistics, law enforcement, including on the Federal level, are hidebound and unimaginative, not to mention stuck in the past adhering to the rare few times when they actually did that kind of thing. They think they're done and don't keep up with progress.

 

And the FBI standard, with plain gel testing and no internal bone or organ simulations, pales in comparison to shooting them into actual carcasses, or in the research I quoted above, gel with pork ribs. The video of the live hog being shot shows just how effective and the type of damage that they do, which is far more effective than JHPs. Not to mention, unless you've cut open a few dozen pig carcasses and directly and closely examined the wound channels, the way I have, you're less of an authority or well versed than I am, meaning I AM a subject matter expert on how they perform in real flesh, bone, and blood.

No need to get defensive. It's not an argument, but a discussion. I'm trying to say that just as political and economic reasons bind law enforcement in the past, so bound is public opinion and judicial thinking. It's important to remain as conventional as one can in any matter that might have other people determining you fate. When a prosecutor questions the medical examiner and the story goes out about massive wound cavities, the like of something he's not seen before, the prosecutor is going to start planning his run for Mayor launched off locking up the shooter in the darkest hole imaginable.

 

 

I'm not saying they don't work. I'm saying they're more of a liability for a civilian to use because trusted, known experts use trusted known products that perform in trusted known testing. People in the professional personal protection field and secret squirrel groups can not relate that their experiences of turning haji into hamburger in court in a way that doesn't make the defendant seem like a wannabe secret agent vigilante SEAL with explosive shredder bullets.

 

The closest we can likely get and remain in the mainstream is the Corbon solid copper hp round. One of my trainers recommends them over Gold Dot, HST and Ranger T.

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Worth noting that no ballistic test data matters if you miss your target while under extreme stress. And you own every bullet that leaves your barrel.

 

Practice-Practice-Practice

And on that note, worth considering that the survivability of being errantly shot with an extreme penetrator is likely diminished over a more conventional hollow point.

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While freely confessing that I haven't made a life's study of FMJ vs JHP, the research I've done indicates that overpenetration is far more likely to be a problem than underpenetration. I've never carried ball ammo for self defense myself.

 

One other thing to look at is that you may or may not need to use specific loads for specific handguns. For instance: if I carry my VP9, I'm carrying Sig V-Crown 124 gr JHP. If, on the other hand, I'm carrying either my Sig P365 or my Walther PPS, I switch to Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP for short barreled firearms. While I expect that Sig V-Crown would probably do okay in a 3" barrel, going after ammunition designed to be used in the same platform you'll be using is a good idea. It's not uncommon for velocity and energy numbers on ammunition to be quoted from 4" or even 5" barrels. If you put that in a 3.1" barrel, you're likely to be disappointed in the performance. Look for something that's designed for use in the same class of firearm you're using.

 

Bri

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IMO optimal expansion is the expansion level at which the bullet will surpass 12" and penetrate the farthest possible, given the caliber, up to 18" as tested against FBI tests and IWBA protocol. The optimal penetration is 18", and for many calibers, some mechanism., like expanding bullet is necessary to keep a bullet from penetrating beyond 18"

 

It is common for 380 FMJ to zip out the back of 24" blocks of gelatin, and there are many tests where people have put 16" blocks of gelatin back back and 9mm FMJ zips through both blocks.

 

So IMO, once you are past 12" of penetration, optimal expansion and optimal penetration are often the same.

 

If all of the available hollow points for a caliber, like, lets say .32 ACP, don't produce at least 12" of expansion, then I think it is prudent to use a FMJ or some bullet design that will penetrate at least 12"

I use 147gr Winchester Ranger "T" Series RA9T in my 9mm pocket pistol, I use Federal 147gr HSTs in my full sized pistol which I keep in my car. Both of these rounds penetrate from 15" - 16" in the FBI tests and they expand to around .64" IIRC.

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