181 replies to this topic

[vezpa]

Gray Peterson, on 05 June 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

kurt555gs, on 05 June 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

No Mr Peterson. I'm saying people shouldn't  risk arrest for having a firearm unloaded and in a case, specify complying with Illinois law. I am not in any way arguing Fanny pack carry replaces oc/cc.

* Carthago Delenda Est *

You're asking someone to risk a 10K-40K debt just to get out of criminal charges?  Or to have standing?

Please explain to me,  your plan to do this, without risking criminal charges for the FPT'er, and find some way of getting them standing to sue?

By the time the case went through, CCW may be passed in Illinois negating the charges for the Fanny Carry  ?

[oneshot]

vezpa, on 05 June 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

Gray Peterson, on 05 June 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

kurt555gs, on 05 June 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

No Mr Peterson. I'm saying people shouldn't  risk arrest for having a firearm unloaded and in a case, specify complying with Illinois law. I am not in any way arguing Fanny pack carry replaces oc/cc.

* Carthago Delenda Est *

You're asking someone to risk a 10K-40K debt just to get out of criminal charges?  Or to have standing?

Please explain to me,  your plan to do this, without risking criminal charges for the FPT'er, and find some way of getting them standing to sue?

By the time the case went through, CCW may be passed in Illinois negating the charges for the Fanny Carry  ?

Charges made prior to the ruling would stand.  It's not so much about doing something wrong, it's about breaking their rules.

[pyre400]

vezpa, on 05 June 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

By the time the case went through, CCW may be passed in Illinois negating the charges for the Fanny Carry  ?

Now there's the optimism for RTC! LOL

I leave this thread with the following:

Feel free to contact your local SA and law enforcement.  Make sure they are in the areas where you expect to "transport".  Ask for yourself...  The best you can expect is if those officials in your area are aware of the law.  What they tell you may not be your ticket to ridw, you may still be arrested (unless there's some sort of official note on the matter) but it may be an interesting exercise, at the very least.
The folks you speak with are likely to be reluctant to answer, or may heavily disclose that they cannot offer legal advice.  Especially the SA, as there is a technical conflict of interest (even though they work for, and are elected by, you).

[TyGuy]

Gray Peterson, on 05 June 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

TyGuy, on 04 June 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

How is being less than 10 seconds to armed, some say 6 seconds, tacticslly inferior to not being armed at all?

Read "The Tueller Principle".

That doesn't answer my question.  Yes, I know about the Tueller Principle, which is why I think unloaded CCW or OCW is silly.  I repeatedly point out mass shootings, not mass knifings.  Even a CCW might not help you in a quick knifing.  My point is that in a mass shooting event if it takes you 10 seconds to get loaded up you are infinitly better off then not being able to bring a gun into the fight.  I'm sure Suzanna Hupp would have prefered to have an unloaded firearm, with ammo nearby, in her purse than in her car at Lubby's.

It's funny how the same people that advocate "it's better to have a 9mm on your side than a 45 on your night stand" turn around and say "it's better to go about totally unarmed then transport in a legal manner that takes 6-10 seconds to bring a gun into the fight."

I don't see any logic in that.

Edited by TyGuy, 05 June 2012 - 08:58 AM.

[TyGuy]

Here is a belt attached camera case that would easily transport a KelTec P3AT,  Taurus something-or-other (the pocket 380), Ruger LCP with a magazine or two.  It screams CAMERA!  I don't think you'd get a 2nd look from any LEOs if you had this on and a non-descript hat and shirt.  Don't wear a  "I am a sheepdog" shirt with it is what I am saying.

Edited by TyGuy, 05 June 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[Buckfarrack]

I'm with Barn on this one!
I am asking for an "I" vote.
HB-NOCRAPPYLIMIT
  "Fishin at the Navy Pier"

Have all boated who fish?
Have all boated who fish?










Have all boated who fish?

we go fishin'

[JackTripper]

TyGuy, on 05 June 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

I'm sure Suzanna Hupp would have prefered to have an unloaded firearm, with ammo nearby, in her purse than in her car at Lubby's.

You are 100% right.

For me personally though, I judge most everything in risk/reward terms. If I were legally permitted to carry, I like to think that I would do so religiously. I would have little to lose, and much to gain.

But if I am in a gray area, that changes the calculus considerably. Now I have to think about "the odds" of me being in an altercation where a gun would be useful, vs "the odds" of that gun being discovered and the associated financial and legal costs (not to mention my wife going apeshit).

[TyGuy]

JackTripper, on 05 June 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

TyGuy, on 05 June 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

I'm sure Suzanna Hupp would have prefered to have an unloaded firearm, with ammo nearby, in her purse than in her car at Lubby's.

You are 100% right.

For me personally though, I judge most everything in risk/reward terms. If I were legally permitted to carry, I like to think that I would do so religiously. I would have little to lose, and much to gain.

But if I am in a gray area, that changes the calculus considerably. Now I have to think about "the odds" of me being in an altercation where a gun would be useful, vs "the odds" of that gun being discovered and the associated financial and legal costs (not to mention my wife going apeshit).

I think your response is 100% appropriate!  I just don't buy the argument that "there's no tactical advantage to container transport," that is just plain wrong.  There are advantages, but there are distinct disadvantages (speed, possible arrest and prosecution).  If you weigh the benefits and risks of each and decide you will or won't carry then I understand that.  I don't container transport 100% of the time.  I was in Chicago last Friday as a chauffer for a bachelorette party.  I wasn't willing to risk the Chicago PD finding me container transporting.  Something tells me they won't be as understanding as my local country cops.

[TyGuy]

Any story where a homeowner is unarmed, someone breaks in, the homeowner runs to get their firearm, and repeals the criminal or holds them until LEOs arrive is evidence that container transport would work.  It certainly takes the homeowner LONGER to retrieve a firearm that is not on them than it would take a practiced individual to retrieve their container transported firearm and load up.

Again, it's not the BEST option, and it carries risk with it, but it can be effective in some circumstances.  You decide if the risk/reward is worth it to you or not.

[JackTripper]

TyGuy, on 05 June 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

I just don't buy the argument that "there's no tactical advantage to container transport," that is just plain wrong.

I have never fired a gun in anger, but even in a simple mugging, I would prefer to have something to defend myself.
Let alone the often mentioned Lane Bryant scenario.

I can manufacture 10 seconds.

That being said, I have been held at gunpoint on 2 occasions, and as a shotgun was once at the base of my head, I don't think it would have helped

[TyGuy]

Jack, yeah that sucks.  There are even some circumstances when a CCW wouldn't help you.  Unfortunately it's a dangerous world and there's no magic pill to make you 100% safe 100% of the time.

[Scots]

We are going in circles. The bottom line is this: if you are willing to risk the consequences - laid out fully and more than a couple of times in this thread - then container transport to your heart's content. If you're not, then don't. Isn't this just that simple?

[TyGuy]

I'm ok with that if people realize that container transport is useful in some circumstances.

I was following the law one time, and I actually took my container off and left it in my car because a friend and I went to confront a man beating up his girlfriend in a parking lot.  He ended up leaving when we told him the cops were coming, but they chased him down and got him.  I ended up going to court to testify, but he plead out before the trial began that day.

[Unanimous]

TyGuy, on 05 June 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

That doesn't answer my question.  Yes, I know about the Tueller Principle, which is why I think unloaded CCW or OCW is silly.  I repeatedly point out mass shootings, not mass knifings.  Even a CCW might not help you in a quick knifing.  My point is that in a mass shooting event if it takes you 10 seconds to get loaded up you are infinitly better off then not being able to bring a gun into the fight.  I'm sure Suzanna Hupp would have prefered to have an unloaded firearm, with ammo nearby, in her purse than in her car at Lubby's.

It's funny how the same people that advocate "it's better to have a 9mm on your side than a 45 on your night stand" turn around and say "it's better to go about totally unarmed then transport in a legal manner that takes 6-10 seconds to bring a gun into the fight."

I don't see any logic in that.

Wait... I'm confused here.. you think unloaded ccw or open is silly but think unloaded fanny pack is tactically advantageous ?

Talking about mass shootings is changing the circumstances of the discussion to suit your argument.  We all know that any one of us is FAR more likely to be the victim of a direct assault than involved in a mass shooting and that is the first and foremost reason we want carry to begin with.

I never said fanny pack transport was useless, just not worth the risk of arrest and potential court battle as it is so tactically inferior anyway.  Get a walking cane chicks dig it anyway

TyGuy, on 05 June 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Any story where a homeowner is unarmed, someone breaks in, the homeowner runs to get their firearm, and repeals the criminal or holds them until LEOs arrive is evidence that container transport would work.  It certainly takes the homeowner LONGER to retrieve a firearm that is not on them than it would take a practiced individual to retrieve their container transported firearm and load up.

Again, it's not the BEST option, and it carries risk with it, but it can be effective in some circumstances.  You decide if the risk/reward is worth it to you or not.

Evidence it would work?  It certainly is nothing of the sort.  You're considering one factor only, that is time in seconds as being an absolute equal with numerous other factors not the least of which is an immediate home court advantage and familiarity with your home and firearm location, a hasty retreat to an (potentially) alternate room vs being in some random public location and dealing with an aggressor that may be suddenly right in your face

[TyGuy]

No, here is my progression of defense:

loaded CCW/OCW, unloaded CCW/OCW, loaded container transport, unloaded container transport, knife and/or pepper spray, wetting oneself in the corner.

[TyGuy]

Yes, you are more likely to be directly confronted, but most carry and will never need it.  Similarily, most that carry will not be involved in a mass shooting, but IF they are a firearm on them that they have to retrieve and load will outperform no firearm whatsoever.

[Unanimous]

TyGuy, on 05 June 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Yes, you are more likely to be directly confronted, but most carry and will never need it.  Similarily, most that carry will not be involved in a mass shooting, but IF they are a firearm on them that they have to retrieve and load will outperform no firearm whatsoever.

fully agree.

Until we get our carry back, every single mass shooting that takes place in IL at this point, the blood is 100% on the hands (and soul) of the corrupt.  They can answer for it at a later time

[TyGuy]

I taught in the classroom of the NIU massacre just one semester before it happened.  While shocked and saddened when it happened I then got angry.  Angry at the policies that put all those children at risk.  Policies that ensured I could only be a victim there.

This legislative session didn't go our way, but there is the pending June 8th court date, the fall legislation session, and our resolve which will never diminsh.  RTC will come to IL!  I don't know how and I don't know when, but we will be victorious!

[Unanimous]

I took numerous classes in Cole back in the day.  I even passed MOST of them.  Truly sickening and disgusting thinking back to the time I spent there and then thinking how the kids must have felt and what was going through their minds being essentially helpless.  While I certainly hope your last statement is true I sadly don't share the optimism any longer.  Used to have the faith that the good would prevail but I'm firmly convinced business as usual will never change for the better in this clown state.  It can and will only get worse.

[TyGuy]

It took 24 years from Florida leading the way to Wisconsin passing it last year.  It stinks that we're last, but we'll get there.

It's gonna take time, a whole lotta precious time.  It's gonna take patience and time, ummm, to get it, to get it, to get it, to get it, to get it, to get right to carry child.

- to the tune of Got My Mind Set On You by George Harrison

[Xwing]

TyGuy, on 05 June 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

Here is a belt attached camera case that would easily transport a KelTec P3AT,  Taurus something-or-other (the pocket 380), Ruger LCP with a magazine or two.  It screams CAMERA!  I don't think you'd get a 2nd look from any LEOs if you had this on and a non-descript hat and shirt.  Don't wear a  "I am a sheepdog" shirt with it is what I am saying.

I have that same camera case, and I carry a camera in it.  I never realized the KelTec was that small.  That case is ~4.5" x 2.5".

[TyGuy]

Did I post the wrong one?  Darn.  Same name, different case.

http://www.amazon.co...8925073&sr=8-52

I just remembered that it was the Case Logic medium case.  Apparently there are multiple medium cases.

Anyway, the first rule of a gun fight...

Edited by TyGuy, 05 June 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[Uncle Harley]

pyre400, on 05 June 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

vezpa, on 05 June 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

By the time the case went through, CCW may be passed in Illinois negating the charges for the Fanny Carry  ?

Now there's the optimism for RTC! LOL

I leave this thread with the following:

Feel free to contact your local SA and law enforcement.  Make sure they are in the areas where you expect to "transport".  Ask for yourself...  The best you can expect is if those officials in your area are aware of the law.  What they tell you may not be your ticket to ridw, you may still be arrested (unless there's some sort of official note on the matter) but it may be an interesting exercise, at the very least.
The folks you speak with are likely to be reluctant to answer, or may heavily disclose that they cannot offer legal advice.  Especially the SA, as there is a technical conflict of interest (even though they work for, and are elected by, you).

our sherrif's dept has a facebook page,  I asked them about fannypack carry on their page,   and they answered in the affirmative for the whole world to see, and then also recomended studing up on the bruner case and made it clear that although it's perfectly legal, there are places where it would be illegial such as the bruner case.

[F12Mahon]

TyGuy, on 05 June 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Anyway, the first rule of a gun fight...

Iknow Iknow! Don't carry a camera!

Eugene

[Indigo]

TyGuy, on 05 June 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

No, here is my progression of defense:

loaded CCW/OCW, unloaded CCW/OCW, loaded container transport, unloaded container transport, knife and/or pepper spray, wetting oneself in the corner.

You left out that ISP favorite, the rat-tail comb, just before wetting oneself!

[pyre400]

Uncle Harley, on 05 June 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

our sherrif's dept has a facebook page,  I asked them about fannypack carry on their page,   and they answered in the affirmative for the whole world to see, and then also recomended studing up on the bruner case and made it clear that although it's perfectly legal, there are places where it would be illegial such as the bruner case.

Fantastic.  That's the guy/gal you want on your side!

[TyGuy]

F12 and Indigo very funny.

[C0untZer0]

It's hard for me to take something seriously when it has the word "fanny" in it.

It they would call them Tac-Packs I would be all-in.  That's cool sounding.

But fanny pack is not cool sounding, and besides - I don't want a fanny.  Wearing a fanny pack is an admission that you have a fanny and I don't want a fanny.  When people look at me from behind I just want them to think "that guy works out..."  I don't want them to think "Wow look at that fanny - it's holding up a fanny pack."

[TyGuy]

Don't wear a fanny pack, wear a phone holder, or a camera bag, or a versapack.  The power is yours!

[pyre400]

"Cool" factor is not something I've spent much time on, when considering self defense options.