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NRA back to standard Instructor Led Basic Pistol


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#1 mqqn

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 08:12 PM

I logged into the NRA site today and was offered a large wall-of-text notification that informed me that the NRA is, in the interest of ensuring students get good training, again offering the NRA Basic Pistol course for Instructor Led Training - the class that a lot of us were teaching before the advent of the blended learning. 

 

I reviewed the power point and it is the old version of the Basic Pistol Course. 

 

You might want to go to nrainstructors.org and check it out. 

 

I apologize if this has been posted here already - I did a search and did not see anything related to the re-issue of the good old BP course. 

 

best 

 

mqqn


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#2 Chinto

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 08:55 AM

Did you download and review the lesson plan too?   There are some changes involved with the new instructor led version.  I see the student packs are priced at $12.50 and the Control Codes for the blended version is $25.00 per code. 



#3 mqqn

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 09:20 AM

Yes - I reviewed the lesson plan - looks the same to me, and still allows for the instructor to teach the course over several days or one day. 

 

I also saw that they are now recommending a two student to one instructor ratio,  and preferring a one to one ratio for live fire instruction - that may have been the same as previous requirements/suggestion. 

 

As much as I did like the NRA material packets, I have since moved on and written my own course companion book, and as such I do not plan on returning to the NRA class materials for my future classes. 

 

However, it is reassuring that the NRA has seen that, at least in my opinion, Instructors would rather have the materials and be allowed to teach the class without having to include the online sections. 

 

That means the RTBV and Eddie Eagle will continue to be allowed to be 100% ILT in addition to whatever blended courses that might arise, again in my opinion. 

 

best 

 

mqqn 


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#4 NRApistol

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 01:25 PM

As an NRA Certified Instructor, I stand by my commitment to serve the NRA, NRA members and the shooting community as a whole.

 

I tell my students the reason they see so much NRA training materials in my classes is because the NRA trained me.  The Illinois State Police accepted me as a Concealed Carry Instructor because the NRA trained me.  The NRA taught me what and how to teach, the ISP told me what to teach. Big difference.  My loyalty is with the NRA.  I always have and will continue using NRA training material.  

 

Instructors that keep their NRA credentials with no intention of teaching an NRA course are kind of an insult to the ones that do.


Edited by NRApistol, 17 April 2017 - 03:54 PM.


#5 Rockdiver

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 04:19 PM

The fact that choosing to not teach 1 out of the entire NRA course list insults any competent instructor is laughably silly, particularly when the NRA itself declared that Basic Pistol was not developed or intended to be part of a CCW course. You remember....their boilerplate message after blended plopped over the rim of the bowl?

Some instructors have developed curricula that were designed from the ground up to complement a Concealed Carry course. For those that "do it right", that is a testament to their abilities as instructors and likely reflects the diversity of their training backgrounds.

A competent TC ALWAYS reccomends that candidates expose themselves to disciplines taught by other mentors and agencies. It is a huge part of professional development.

I can't think of a single Instructor I would share a line with who would advocate otherwise.

Just my humble opinion though...
YMMV
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#6 NRApistol

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 04:58 PM

Maybe I see things through different eyes.  When I ask an instructor candidate how they intend to use their NRA credentials, I expect they answer "To support the NRA training programs."  If they answer " I intend to write my own lesson plans and ignore the NRA"   I WILL NOT certify them.

 

Let the ISP train and certify them..... I`m not interested.

 

as you say...
YMMV



#7 Rockdiver

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 05:27 PM

So, essentially, you develop Instructor candidates and place limits on their potential by demanding that they never teach anything other than NRA coursework?

Im guessing your TC workshop was taught in a DISTINCTLY different manner than mine.

Makes me wonder.

Were you not instructed SPECIFICALLY to encourage candidates to expose themselves to other disciplines??

I was not aware that was deep sixed.

Im also guessing that Advanced Pistol/ Defensive Pistol Instructor disciplines accept now only NRA basic coursework to teach?

Curious....

I missed all of it!!

Thank God too, because if I believed it for a second I would throw up in my mouth.

Some milage does vary, apparently.


The constant bashing of instructors that were stunted by the way blended was handled is not increasing the likelyhood of winning them back, I would volunteer that is ridiculously counterproductive.

Basic Pistol (Instructor led) will recover because it is a STRONG course.

That is not helping.

It is NOT effective advocacy.

At all.

Edited by Rockdiver, 17 April 2017 - 05:51 PM.

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#8 NRApistol

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 05:50 PM

I`m not inclined to throw up when upset.  Must leave an awful taste in your mouth.  You need to get a handle on that.

 

There is absolutely no reason when the Blended Training was introduced that a dedicated instructor did not step up to the plate and take the Personal Protection series and move on.  I have several that did and I am very proud of them.  I have no sympathy for an instructor that whines rather show action.

 

YES I encourage mt instructors to take additional training.  I DO NOT tell them to abandon the NRA.  And I do not like having words put in my mouth.

 

I DO NOT run a diploma mill.  I teach qualified candidates that are willing to uphold the training standards of the NRA.  I will be happy to send you my rejects.



#9 Rockdiver

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 06:09 PM

How you have somehow correlated encouraging capable instructors to grow as an instructor as advocating that they abandon the NRA actually makes me feel sorry for you.

Im betting that you LOVED blended.

That you don't get it leaves little doubt as to where the regect is.

Try for a moment to consider the act of bashing instructors who felt marginalized by the way blended was handled...try if you are able, (with limited exposure to advanced disciplines) to understand their frustration and appeal to their return to BP based on merit.

I asked you questions, you failed to answer them, just like you do when I ask who you are.

I will continue to work to see that Instructors use BP for what it was intended, and will assist them in fitting it in to their curricula.

I earned my reputation as a TC. Im betting I could fix some of your rejects if your declared policy is true.

My courses were taught and passed based on merit and attitude....

Milage...what does it mean...

Think about what I said about your reaffirmation methodology when we are not swinging purses and squealing at each other. It might actually helpful if your actual goal is to draw instructors back to BP, and not pine about your emotional investment in blended.

As entertaining as our little chats always seem to be, Im going to leave it on this note honey,

BP will recover.

In 3 years it will be right back where it was....you know why? Because there are quite a few instructors that were VERY good at teaching it.

Like New Coke, they will relagate it to an unpleasent, chemical flavored blip in their history and move back into the comfort of inspirational teaching.

BP will be just fine.

Im happy to help it. But if you didn't learn from very recent NRA history that forcing a program down someone's throat just....might...not...work, I don't know how else to explain it to you.

I'll ask my wife to help me find the right words...

Edited by Rockdiver, 17 April 2017 - 06:23 PM.

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#10 NRApistol

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 06:22 PM

Tell my favorite cyber stalker where I live.  Now you have me laughing.  We must of had different training.  I was told either support the NRA or surrender your credentials.  Instructor or TC.  Piss poor instructors taking shortcuts got us Blended Training.  The NRA is trying to get control on poor instruction and its hard for me to understand a TC that is not helping.

 

I am not inclined to lower my standard.



#11 Rockdiver

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 06:38 PM

Tell my favorite cyber stalker where I live.  Now you have me laughing.  We must of had different training.  I was told either support the NRA or surrender your credentials.  Instructor or TC.  Piss poor instructors taking shortcuts got us Blended Training.  The NRA is trying to get control on poor instruction and its hard for me to understand a TC that is not helping.
 
I am not inclined to lower my standard.

There was a better, more effective way to cull piss poor instructors without marginalizing those with talent and ability. I can only imagine why it is a lost concept on some. Lol.

Cyber stalker.....Lol. I just love hearing you explain your positions.

We had very different instructors. Very different TCs. That I can tell you. We also have vast differences in experience with instructor development.

But, you knew that.

Supporting the NRA was what those of us TCs with enough teaching experience were doing when we saw blended for the turd that it was and worked to let it be an option...so it could die on its own without being a further drag on the flagship courses. We did so because we felt we were witnessing the death of a national training standard.

They did not reverse their position on blended because they could not yell loud enough at the rain to demand that all Instructors yield to absolutism...or else.

They changed it because the cost of lost talent was surpassing the very real monetary cost of fishing blended out of the drain.

Perspective is powerful.

Someday you will see that.

This was cathartic.

You can get the last word in now.

Ill allow it.

Lol

Edited by Rockdiver, 17 April 2017 - 06:42 PM.

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#12 Rockdiver

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 07:05 PM

Yes - I reviewed the lesson plan - looks the same to me, and still allows for the instructor to teach the course over several days or one day. 
 
I also saw that they are now recommending a two student to one instructor ratio,  and preferring a one to one ratio for live fire instruction - that may have been the same as previous requirements/suggestion. 
 
As much as I did like the NRA material packets, I have since moved on and written my own course companion book, and as such I do not plan on returning to the NRA class materials for my future classes. 
 
However, it is reassuring that the NRA has seen that, at least in my opinion, Instructors would rather have the materials and be allowed to teach the class without having to include the online sections. 
 
That means the RTBV and Eddie Eagle will continue to be allowed to be 100% ILT in addition to whatever blended courses that might arise, again in my opinion. 
 
best 
 
mqqn


They have always reccomended a 2 to 1 ratio. Would you consider teaching a BP course if it was for a group with no interest in FCCL?

Just curious as your example IS my point.

It is sad that blended pushed so many capable instructors away from BP, and I understand not including it in an already venerable FCCL course, but I have found myself thinking of offering it standalone in the late summer.

Just wondering your thoughts.
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#13 Smallbore

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 08:36 PM

It is ironic that poor instructor are used to justify the extremely poor teaching concept of blended training.
The NRA basic pistol teaching outline was such a good course that an average teacher would have success.
I do not believe it had anthing to do with quality but control and greed. The TC training at Farfax is not any better than the training that was done out here in the field.
I am happy to see Basic Pistol back.

#14 mqqn

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 10:37 PM

 

Yes - I reviewed the lesson plan - looks the same to me, and still allows for the instructor to teach the course over several days or one day. 
 
I also saw that they are now recommending a two student to one instructor ratio,  and preferring a one to one ratio for live fire instruction - that may have been the same as previous requirements/suggestion. 
 
As much as I did like the NRA material packets, I have since moved on and written my own course companion book, and as such I do not plan on returning to the NRA class materials for my future classes. 
 
However, it is reassuring that the NRA has seen that, at least in my opinion, Instructors would rather have the materials and be allowed to teach the class without having to include the online sections. 
 
That means the RTBV and Eddie Eagle will continue to be allowed to be 100% ILT in addition to whatever blended courses that might arise, again in my opinion. 
 
best 
 
mqqn


They have always reccomended a 2 to 1 ratio. Would you consider teaching a BP course if it was for a group with no interest in FCCL?

Just curious as your example IS my point.

It is sad that blended pushed so many capable instructors away from BP, and I understand not including it in an already venerable FCCL course, but I have found myself thinking of offering it standalone in the late summer.

Just wondering your thoughts.

 

 

Sure - the materials are very good and the test is pretty comprehensive. 

 

I absolutely was very disappointed to see the ILT BP go away, it's a very good course. 

 

My problem of late is getting enough people to fill classes - I only have 2 registered for my May 6-7th CCL class.

 

Hope things are going well for you up north!  

 

best 

 

mqqn


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#15 mqqn

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 06:21 AM

As an NRA Certified Instructor, I stand by my commitment to serve the NRA, NRA members and the shooting community as a whole.

 

I tell my students the reason they see so much NRA training materials in my classes is because the NRA trained me.  The Illinois State Police accepted me as a Concealed Carry Instructor because the NRA trained me.  The NRA taught me what and how to teach, the ISP told me what to teach. Big difference.  My loyalty is with the NRA.  I always have and will continue using NRA training material.  

 

Instructors that keep their NRA credentials with no intention of teaching an NRA course are kind of an insult to the ones that do.

 

You make some broad assumptions with regard to people who teach firearm safety. 

 

First, you assume that the only way people can support the NRA is through teaching their courses. 

 

Second, you assume that most people only have NRA training backgrounds. 

 

Both of these are either narrow minded, or simple oversights on your part. 

 

The NRA  did not train me, it was two separate TC's that took their time to provide the courses. I took the certification  twice to see how two different TCs instructed us to instruct. It was enlightening, and I picked up good training habits from both TCs. 

 

There are many other venues from which to consume training outside of the NRA.  Although the NRA BP class is a good class, how long are they going to provide a booklet that does not follow the slides or vice/versa? That seems like something the NRA could correct pretty easily since I was able to create my own 50 page book in just over a month of work. 

 

It was the NRA that made the mistake of implementing the "blended learning", and if that works for you and your instructors, good for you. It did not work down here in the trenches where we are actually training hundreds of people. 

 

As far as supporting the NRA, through my business and money received from training students for Illinois CCL, I  have donated thousands of dollars through the FoNRA East Central Illinois banquet each year, $2000 just a couple of weeks ago. Can I make the assumption that you also are putting your money where your mouth is, so to speak? 

 

I also assume you were at IGOLD this year, protesting to our state's legislators, another way to help support the  NRA and it's causes. 

 

It is very easy for people to pontificate from what they consider to be "up on high" when in fact they are no different from  anyone else. 

 

Supporting the blended learning could conceivably be considered undermining the NRA, even though it was the organization itself that promulgated the BL upon it's instructors, as the  BL has shown to be highly unpopular. I can only believe that implementing BL hurt the NRA in terms of dollar-intake and hence the return of ILT BP.

 

Whether the  NRA had a noble quest to provide "better training" or they were trying to increase revenue through taking a piece of the BP pie from hard working instructors we may never know for sure, but if you follow the money, you will see some clues. 

 

I wish you good luck with your future training classes, and I will be teaching my own curriculum as well as getting more and varied training for myself so that I can become a better instructor for each new class. 

 

best 

 

mqqn 


Edited by mqqn, 18 April 2017 - 06:25 AM.

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#16 Rockdiver

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 07:24 AM

Mqqn,

Beautifully put. You have a lot more patience for BS than I, but I have grown tired of the open resentment and contempt that some posters exhibit towards instructors who were disenfranchised through no fault of their own by the way Blended was implemented.

That being said, I hope you fill up over the spring/summer season!

Rocco

Edited by Rockdiver, 18 April 2017 - 08:52 AM.

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#17 FST_Kent

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 10:24 AM

I agree that the BP course as a whole should not be used as a CCL course, but it's "basics" of safety and fundamentals should be.

 

I'll rustle the hornets nest a little more and say the standard for CCL instructors in IL should have been a minimum or PPITH or PPOTH certification.

 

I was done with the NRA well before blended and am not a fan of the training requirements/recertification to obtain/retain a IL CCL.  I was very vocal about it at the time.  I am glad however the BP course gets one some credit towards training.

 

Carry on............



#18 Rockdiver

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:49 AM

The training requirement is ridiculously excessive and in itself a burden to carry....but there would be no FCCL without it.

If they were going to set standards it should have revolved around the dissemination of legal material...
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#19 Rockdiver

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:02 AM

It is ironic that poor instructor are used to justify the extremely poor teaching concept of blended training.
The NRA basic pistol teaching outline was such a good course that an average teacher would have success.
I do not believe it had anthing to do with quality but control and greed. The TC training at Farfax is not any better than the training that was done out here in the field.
I am happy to see Basic Pistol back.

I think that there were definitely some QC issues that needed to be dealt with, but when local TC's trusted to audit courses are so spread out it was "easier" to just force blended in.

We saw a lot of really talented Instructors and TCs walk away from Basic Pistol, not only because it was a turd and a failure in every measurable aspect of performance, but because almost ZERO students found it desirable over actual Instruction.

I have only ever seen three types of personnel excited to see blended after its content was released:

1. Instructors and TC's that would prostitute any virtue to curry favor with T&E, and who actually had the experience to know, but lacked the fortitude to tell the proverbial emporer that he had no clothes.

2. Instructors and TCs with next to no actual practical teaching experience who had no idea just how ugly that baby was going to be to implement, and how cost inefficient it would be for students. (Time has value)

3. Instructors and TCs who knew just how miserable they were at leading a group through the course....With no milestones, abilities, or achievements to celebrate, blended would bring everyone down to their level, and their incompetence would be ameliorated. Ironically this was the demographic referred to as a reason for blended.


I was given the honor of teaching the first (non T&E) NRA Instructor workshop in the Continental US featuring "Blended learning"..... right here in Ottowa IL.

When I had established a relative baseline of the average absorbtion rate for Traditional Basic Pistol in students with very little to zero previous firearms experience and applied it to the average completion times for instructor candidates to finish the online portion (phase 1) there was no question as to what an inoperable failure that program would become.

Couple that with the fact that they had already exhausted their development budget, were way beyond deadline, and could not even project being able to salvage the concept without introducing phase 1 at such a ridiculous price point, it is easy to see why so many capable instructors and TCs balked when T&E took an optional introduction off the table and forced that rotten hunk of wood down their throats while telling them it was all being done to make their job easier! More time on the range!!

Yeehaw!

Except any instructor with an IQ over 70, who had taught enough coursework to know what the retention rate is for conceptionally new material via an online medium saw the approaching leviathon and, in many cases, were silenced.

Granted, there was no shortage of emotional responses, but even rational, clinical observations about its lack of viable attributes were ignored. Someone actually said it was the instructor's own fault if they could not make blended successful, and it solidified his status as being in the same vein of the failed huckster of a piramid scheme. "Improvise, adapt...blah, blah,"...yep just like the manager of a shady restaraunt trying to hide the smell of improperly stored fish with a little more sauce.

I am glad basic pistol is back to being instructor led, and that I will get to ignore blended as it dies in a dark corner somewhere, but I somehow doubt we are near the point of being able to reference its introduction with an aire of "someday we will look back on this and laugh".

Until then I will encourage NRA Instructors to use the Instructor Led Basic Pistol with full faith that it is still a fantastic resource for new pistol shooters, and that there are no moves to radically abandon the core principals that have made the NRA the National Standard for instruction darkening the horizon.

Edited by Rockdiver, 25 April 2017 - 10:06 AM.

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