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Non-contiguous Cabela's - no sales to Illinois residents.


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#1 RS1

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 12:58 PM

I was just back in my home state of Michigan for a few days. While there, I decided to take advantage of a stack of Cabela's credit and the lack of Cook County taxes to buy a Ruger PC Carbine.

I went to a Michigan Cabelas's on Monday, picked out a carbine, and did the 4473 ane paperwork. The guy confirmed the 24 hour wait time for Illinois residents and said the clock started after the 4473 came back. He said they'd call when I was good. Two days later I called for an update and the guy said, verbatim, "you're good to go!"

So I went to pick it up. They had trouble printing the paper work and had to get a manager and then a supervisor. After about an hour of signing everything, they took it back to clear to release. 30 minutes later, the manager came out and informed me that there were 2 problems. They had been in contact with corporate trying to figure out why the papers wouldn't print and were told that as of October/November 2018 the wait time for Illinois residents at all Cabela's for all long guns was now 72 hours. In addition, they could not sell any firearms to Illinois residents except in contiguous states (I've heard that Illinois is contiguous because the lake counts as a Michigan border but I wasn't going to argue). So nothing outside of states that directly border Illinois.

It was disappointing but honestly, they were so nice and so shocked to be finding out about this policy I can't really hold it against the staff. They were all really helpful despite the result.

But the whole Cabela's corporate policy is awful. I've bought in Michigan before no problems. Is this a Bass Pro thing? It may be old news but I didn't find anything here in a search. Cabela's hasn't updated their website (I checked before I walked in the store and after this went down): https://www.cabelas....GunRestrictions

And even worse, Illinois, and more to the point Cook County, is getting exactly what they seem to want. Fewer legal, law abiding gun owners.


Like I said, not p***** on a personal level but from a political standpoint, infuriating. I did decide to buy some 30 round mags for my P229 and any future Ruger while I was there, as a F-you to my current home county and state. Unfortunately I lost them while fishing in Michigan but you get the point.


I'll be getting my Ruger legally at the Hammond Cabela's if they have any or just online through the FFL. So at the end of the day, the state just wasted everyone's time. If it had been someone else, they might just give up, as intended.


I did look at some properties in Detroit.

#2 InterestedBystander

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 01:06 PM

They are correct that it is a 72 hr waiting period for all firearms sold in IL starting 1/1/19.

(720 ILCS 5/24-3) (from Ch. 38, par. 24-3)
..."the offense of unlawful sale or delivery of firearms when (g) Delivers any firearm, incidental to a sale,
without withholding delivery of the firearm for at least 72 hours after application for its purchase has been made"...

As for the contiguous state thing I think it is probably a poor interpretation of an even more poorly worded law. Not sure of intent when passed but it does not say you can't purchase elsewhere non contiguous as long as it goes through an FFL and follows all other ATF rules. However theirs is not an uncommon interpretation of that law.

(430 ILCS 65/3a) (from Ch. 38, par. 83-3a)
Sec. 3a. (a) Any resident of Illinois who has obtained a firearm owner's identification card pursuant to this Act and who is not otherwise prohibited from obtaining, possessing or using a firearm may purchase or obtain a rifle or shotgun or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun in Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Wisconsin or Kentucky.

(b ) Any resident of Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Wisconsin or Kentucky or a non-resident with a valid non-resident hunting license, who is 18 years of age or older and who is not prohibited by the laws of Illinois, the state of his domicile, or the United States from obtaining, possessing or using a firearm, may purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun in Illinois.

ATF
May a licensee sell a firearm to a nonlicensee who is a resident of another State?
Generally, a firearm may not lawfully be sold by a licensee to a nonlicensee who resides in a State other than the State in which the sellers licensed premises is located. However, the sale may be made if the firearm is shipped to a licensee whose business is in the purchasers State of residence and the purchaser takes delivery of the firearm from the licensee in his or her State of residence. In addition, a licensee may sell a rifle or shotgun to a person who is not a resident of the State where the licensees business premises is located in an overthecounter transaction, provided the transaction complies with State law in the State where the licensee is located and in the State where the purchaser resides.

[18 U.S.C. 922(B)(3); 27 CFR 478.99(a)]

Edited by InterestedBystander, 19 April 2019 - 01:55 PM.

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#3 RS1

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 01:11 PM

They are correct that it is a 72 hr waiting period for all firearms sold in IL starting 1/1/19. As for the contiguous state thing I think it is probably a poor interpretation of en even more poorly worded law.

Got it, thanks for the clarification. I could have waited 72 but the non-contiguous thing meant no go at all.
Their website needs an update as well.

Edited by RS1, 19 April 2019 - 01:12 PM.


#4 gearsmithy

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 01:43 PM

when they say "obtain" does this exclude online sales? or does 'obtain' relate to the physical place where the background check is performed?



#5 FST_Kent

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 03:01 PM

when they say "obtain" does this exclude online sales? or does 'obtain' relate to the physical place where the background check is performed?

The physical location of the transaction.

 

Michigan was never a contiguous state when I worked for a FFL.



#6 Teufel Hunden

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 07:14 PM

Illinois and Michigan share a border in the middle of Lake Michigan. They are contiguous states. The fact that Illinois chose to enumerate the states that are approved as being contiguous and excludes Michigan shows that the lawmakers are arbitrary and capricious when it comes to firearms rights.

#7 Bubbacs

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 07:37 PM

Not contiguous
We share a waterway boundary
Seems we border Michigan by waterway
We can thank Nathaniel Pope first rep to congress
Indiana cried more than we did and got more shoreline access


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#8 Tip

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 07:45 PM

Not contiguous
We share a waterway boundary
Seems we border Michigan by waterway
We can thank Nathaniel Pope first rep to congress
Indiana cried more than we did and got more shoreline access
http://historyfromab...order-with.html


We only share a waterway boundary with Kentucky.

ETA - oops, not entirely true, apparently there is a small sliver of land north of Old Shawneetown on the north side of the Ohio River that belongs to Kentucky.... and another down by Saline Landing. My bad.

Edited by Tip, 19 April 2019 - 07:56 PM.

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#9 mab22

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 09:10 PM

Doesnt this violate the commerce clause? Does this mean if I goto Florida on vacation and want to purchase a firearm while on vacation that I can not do so? Even though I am legaly able to do so?

Article 1 Section 1.

All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Article 1 section 8.
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes

Link to Cornell law site.
https://www.law.corn...ticlei#section8
Void the FOID!

#10 Teufel Hunden

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 03:38 AM

Illinois only shares a waterway boundary with Iowa also, the Mississippi River. Contiguous does not mean it has a land border, it simply means they share a common border. It doesn't matter if that border is in the middle of Lake Michigan.

#11 gearsmithy

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 08:47 AM

So basically no online sales to Illinois unless the seller is in a contiguous state?



#12 gunuser17

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:08 AM

Gearsmithy - My understanding is that an Illinois resident can only walk  into a store and purchase a handgun in Illinois - wait three days and background check and you can walk out with the handgun.  If you want to walk into a store and purchase a rifle or shotgun, the store must be in Illinois or a contiguous state.  You walk in, make your purchase, wait three days and clear background check - and you can walk out with the rifle or shotgun.  If you want to purchase over the internet, you can purchase a handgun, rifle or shotgun from any state so long as the seller will ship to an FFL in Illinois and the FFL in Illinois will accept the shipment.  You then do your paperwork with the Illinois FFL - wait 3 days and clear background check - and you can walk out with the firearm.



#13 Black Flag

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:34 AM

FWIW, Cabela's wanted me to fill out a 4473 for an air rifle.  I did not purchase there.


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#14 Quiet Observer

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:34 AM

The word "contiguous" does not appear in the FOID Act.  It names the specific states without any mention of proximity.  Theoretically, it could have included Alabama, Maine, Guam, and have excluded Indiana. 

 

Note #2 above by InterestedBystander. 

 

(430 ILCS 65/3a) (from Ch. 38, par. 83-3a)
Sec. 3a. (a) Any resident of Illinois who has obtained a firearm owner's identification card pursuant to this Act and who is not otherwise prohibited from obtaining, possessing or using a firearm may purchase or obtain a rifle or shotgun or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun in Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Wisconsin or Kentucky.

(b ) Any resident of Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Wisconsin or Kentucky or a non-resident with a valid non-resident hunting license, who is 18 years of age or older and who is not prohibited by the laws of Illinois, the state of his domicile, or the United States from obtaining, possessing or using a firearm, may purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun in Illinois.
 


Edited by Quiet Observer, 20 April 2019 - 09:38 AM.


#15 3ddiver

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:47 AM

Doesnt this violate the commerce clause? Does this mean if I goto Florida on vacation and want to purchase a firearm while on vacation that I can not do so? Even though I am legaly able to do so?

Article 1 Section 1.

All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Article 1 section 8.
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes

Link to Cornell law site.
https://www.law.corn...ticlei#section8

 

It does not mean that you could not purchase a firearm in Florida. It means that you cannot take possession of the firearm in Florida, it will have to be shipped to Illinois to a FFL that will process the background check. 



#16 gearsmithy

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 10:11 AM

Gearsmithy - My understanding is that an Illinois resident can only walk  into a store and purchase a handgun in Illinois - wait three days and background check and you can walk out with the handgun.  If you want to walk into a store and purchase a rifle or shotgun, the store must be in Illinois or a contiguous state.  You walk in, make your purchase, wait three days and clear background check - and you can walk out with the rifle or shotgun.  If you want to purchase over the internet, you can purchase a handgun, rifle or shotgun from any state so long as the seller will ship to an FFL in Illinois and the FFL in Illinois will accept the shipment.  You then do your paperwork with the Illinois FFL - wait 3 days and clear background check - and you can walk out with the firearm.

 

That was my understanding as well, but given the way the law is worded, it seems that we cannot do that.  "Sec. 3a. (a) Any resident of Illinois who has obtained a firearm owner's identification card pursuant to this Act and who is not otherwise prohibited from obtaining, possessing or using a firearm may purchase or obtain a rifle or shotgun or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun in Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Wisconsin or Kentucky."

 

Would OP be able to have that firearm shipped from a MI FFL to an IL FFL? If so then that seems like an easy solution.  Have it transferred here, do the background check here with the waiting period and all that nonsense.  I guess it could come down to how the courts interpret "may purchase".  There's no language about the limitation being at the point of transfer (after the BG check has cleared).  It seems to me that a case could be made that this effectively bans online sales since the point of 'purchase' is not necessarily the point of 'transfer'.  



#17 InterestedBystander

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 10:47 AM

The law is written saying what you can do. Doesnt say anything about what you can't do. I wonder if any archived transcripts are available for when this was done that might show intent?
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#18 gunuser17

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 11:22 AM

I can say that I easily buy ammunitiion when I am in a non-contiguous state in person at the store and they sure are not interested in seeing my FOID card.  If I purchase ammunition over the internet for shipment to Illinois from a non-contiguous state, they do ask for a copy of my FOID.  And I have purchased a handgun through a dealer in Minnesota that was delivered through an FFL in Illinois in the past few years and they ask for FOID.


Edited by gunuser17, 20 April 2019 - 11:30 AM.


#19 soundguy

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 11:30 AM

 

Gearsmithy - My understanding is that an Illinois resident can only walk  into a store and purchase a handgun in Illinois - wait three days and background check and you can walk out with the handgun.  If you want to walk into a store and purchase a rifle or shotgun, the store must be in Illinois or a contiguous state.  You walk in, make your purchase, wait three days and clear background check - and you can walk out with the rifle or shotgun.  If you want to purchase over the internet, you can purchase a handgun, rifle or shotgun from any state so long as the seller will ship to an FFL in Illinois and the FFL in Illinois will accept the shipment.  You then do your paperwork with the Illinois FFL - wait 3 days and clear background check - and you can walk out with the firearm.

 

That was my understanding as well, but given the way the law is worded, it seems that we cannot do that.  "Sec. 3a. (a) Any resident of Illinois who has obtained a firearm owner's identification card pursuant to this Act and who is not otherwise prohibited from obtaining, possessing or using a firearm may purchase or obtain a rifle or shotgun or ammunition for a rifle or shotgun in Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Wisconsin or Kentucky."

 

Would OP be able to have that firearm shipped from a MI FFL to an IL FFL? If so then that seems like an easy solution.  Have it transferred here, do the background check here with the waiting period and all that nonsense.  I guess it could come down to how the courts interpret "may purchase".  There's no language about the limitation being at the point of transfer (after the BG check has cleared).  It seems to me that a case could be made that this effectively bans online sales since the point of 'purchase' is not necessarily the point of 'transfer'.  

 

 

Yes...

If you can buy mail order and have it shipped to your favorite local FFL for the legal stuff, you could negotiate the same deal at an out of state shop in person if they were willing. In the case of the OP, he could (and did?) just go to the Indiana Cabela's or the Bolingbrook Bass Pro.


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#20 Black Flag

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 01:03 PM

If I break an Illinois law while not in Illinois, have I committed a crime?


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#21 Euler

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 01:24 PM

If I break an Illinois law while not in Illinois, have I committed a crime?


It depends on whether one political jurisdiction "enables" the laws of another political jurisdiction, e.g., if Indiana enables Illinois law, so that Illinois law applies within Indiana. I don't know how much any other states enable Illinois law. Also, since most cops aren't lawyers, enforcement could be a problem.

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#22 Dr Duke

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Posted 05 May 2019 - 04:48 PM

A few years ago the family was on a trip and passed through Missouri.  Dad found a rifle at a pawn shop he wanted and we were shocked to find out he could take it with him as soon as he passed the background check.  At the time IL had a 24 hr waiting period. 

 

Would that still be legal today?

 

I don't know what Rauner was thinking with that 72 hour crap.  Anyone who wanted more gun control voted for Jabba the *****.  Just like Trump and bumpstocks, gained nothing with his opponents and p***** off his supporters.  Team R really is the stupid party sometimes.



#23 FST_Kent

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 11:42 AM

The pawn shop is supposed to observe IL's waiting period.  I'm gonna guess far enough away from the border, they didn't care and just followed MO's laws.  They probably wondered what a FOID was too.



#24 gangrel

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 05:41 PM

A few years ago the family was on a trip and passed through Missouri.  Dad found a rifle at a pawn shop he wanted and we were shocked to find out he could take it with him as soon as he passed the background check.  At the time IL had a 24 hr waiting period. 
 
Would that still be legal today?
 
I don't know what Rauner was thinking with that 72 hour crap.  Anyone who wanted more gun control voted for Jabba the *****.  Just like Trump and bumpstocks, gained nothing with his opponents and p***** off his supporters.  Team R really is the stupid party sometimes.

A very simple search of this forum will show you that Rauner used amendatory veto powers on a bill that the Democrats passed to make "assault weapons" a 72 hour wait, while also defining what an "assault weapon" is. He struck the definition of "assault weapon" and changed the wait to 72 hours on everything in order to take away any justification the liberals had to override his veto. You can thank him later.

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#25 Lou

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 06:03 PM

 

A few years ago the family was on a trip and passed through Missouri.  Dad found a rifle at a pawn shop he wanted and we were shocked to find out he could take it with him as soon as he passed the background check.  At the time IL had a 24 hr waiting period. 
 
Would that still be legal today?
 
I don't know what Rauner was thinking with that 72 hour crap.  Anyone who wanted more gun control voted for Jabba the *****.  Just like Trump and bumpstocks, gained nothing with his opponents and p***** off his supporters.  Team R really is the stupid party sometimes.

A very simple search of this forum will show you that Rauner used amendatory veto powers on a bill that the Democrats passed to make "assault weapons" a 72 hour wait, while also defining what an "assault weapon" is. He struck the definition of "assault weapon" and changed the wait to 72 hours on everything in order to take away any justification the liberals had to override his veto. You can thank him later.

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You can also thank someone who had his ear and advised him on the finer points of firearms related bills.  No names will be mentioned. 


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