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Verbal challenge

TRJ

By TRJ
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TRJ Member

TRJ

Posted
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As I continue my training I've come across a few differing viewpoints regarding the concept of issuing a verbal challenge and what that challenge should be.

 

For example I've heard the advice to shout "Police! Drop the weapon!" (Yes, you may have to pay for an attorney to explain that away later, but in a judged by twelve or carried by six type situation it may seem less of a concern.)

 

Others have suggested a different challenge of "Stop!", or " Drop it!" or no challenge at all because of the loss of any advantage you may have. I've even heard of just yelling any question at the guy just to get his mind to disengage long enough for a good guy to engage and stop him.

 

I understand that some teach verbal challenge because it might deescalate a situation, which would be a good outcome. Others teach verbal challenge because it may have a positive effect on surviving the legal system, possibly largely avoiding it because witnesses were primed to conclude that you were the good guy and you acted responsibly or even heroically.

 

At the same time, it takes a lot of training to be able to verbally challenge, move, access, move, draw, move, access and possibly shoot the bad guy. It might be way too much to expect from a regular guy with a carry permit. Fact is, most people don't train at all, which my be the basis for not making it more complex than necessary by adding the challenge element to the act of self defense. That dovetails well with the concept many of us hold that our guns are only to be used in defense of life, and we would then only consider using them for defense of self or family.

 

What's your take on this?

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BIGDEESUL Member

BIGDEESUL

Posted
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Loudly screaming polite commands like "PLEASE DROP THE WEAPON" or "SORRY, I CAN'T HELP YOU" will help with witnesses. If the y

Report that's what you said, rather than swearing, and screaming aggressive commands, may change everyone's perception of you, from witnesses on the scene, to the police, to court (which hopefully won't happen)

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Xwing Member

Xwing

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I prefer the "PALEEEESE drop the weapon!" "Police" and "please" sound similar enough. Yell please in a way that sounds like police (if you catch my drift), but report that you yelled please.

Nice suggestion.

 

Although in all likelihood, if you have to use a firearm in self defense; there may not be time to say anything before defending your (or your loved ones) lives.

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TyGuy Member

TyGuy

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Seems dependent on the situation. Someone already presenting a lethal threat (think weapon drawn on you) will receive no warning. Someone starting to get aggressive with you or someone under your care can receive a verbal warning. I'd prefer NOT to have to shoot anyone, but sometimes you gotta take action as you're already on the losing end of the initiative.

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lostone1413 Member

lostone1413

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As I read the post I was thing back.It was either Washington or Oregon that a couple years ago not a person with a CCW came upon an active shooter. He made the mistake of a verbal challenge The shooter turned and shot him If I remember right he is now in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. I myself believe we aren't the police we don't draw to arrest someone. When you as a citizen draw your gun you must feel your life is in danger. That verbal challenge might just give him the upper hand.

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KarlJ Member

KarlJ

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I think it depends on the individual situation.

An active shooter shouldn't even hear your gun shot

 

I think a verbal challenge is ok when there is some distance between you and your attacker. But that depends what their armed with. If they have a gun and you know they are gonna use it, there's no time to reason with them

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Glock21 Member

Glock21

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#1 You may not have any chance to issue a command.
#2 If you do, I specifically teach "Police! Don't move! Drop the weapon!" command.

As stated above, it's good for witnesses, etc... But I'll explain my rationale.

It's a standard police command, meaning, he's probably heard it before. I'd also ask everyone: what are the chances the offender doesn't speak English? The word "Police" is close enough in most of the romance languages. Policía, polizei - whatever - they'll get the picture. "Don't move! Drop the weapon!" might have the same effect as asking your dog where your car keys are.

As an added bonus the word "police" also indicates to the offender that one is a) armed, and b ) has access to MORE POLICE.

Now, with the standard disclaimer of "I'm not giving legal advice. Ask your lawyer", I have yet to hear of a single person ever being charged because they said the word "police" to VCA committing a felony in order to get them to stop committing said felony. Impersonating an officer has to include some sort of violation of the rights of others, personal gain, or breach of trust. Any of us can dress up as a cop for Halloween, what we can't do is perform Terry stops or walk into Dunkin' Donuts and try to get a free cup of coffee by suggesting we are "the police." If saying the word "police" stops an attacker from plunging a knife in your heart, I'd suggest that falls under the Doctrine of Competing Harms. And if your defensive shooting is completely 100% golden, meaning there is nothing a prosecutor can go after you on OTHER than you said "police!" to the offender, then I'd suggest nothing you're doing, including breathing, is beyond the wrath of the State's Attorney - in which case, we have to ask ourselves what's more important: being alive, or dealing with such a trivial and easily defended issue in the aftermath?

If one must have a legal justification, just remember that you are not saying you ARE the police, you're simply yelling FOR the police. And, for the record, that is exactly what I teach all of my students - yell FOR the police, then immediately command the attacker, "Don't move! Drop the weapon!" If the VCA misinterprets it to mean you're saying you are the police, then that's their mistake.

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Glock21 Member

Glock21

Posted
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As I read the post I was thing back.It was either Washington or Oregon that a couple years ago not a person with a CCW came upon an active shooter. He made the mistake of a verbal challenge The shooter turned and shot him If I remember right he is now in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. I myself believe we aren't the police we don't draw to arrest someone. When you as a citizen draw your gun you must feel your life is in danger. That verbal challenge might just give him the upper hand.

Tacoma Mall shooting.

Was not the command, it was the hesitation on the goodguy's part because the active murderer was "just a kid." The CCW holder couldn't press the trigger.

 

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NRApistol Member

NRApistol

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There is no "cookie cutter" answer to this one. Surprising a home intruder in the middle of the night might require a response totally different than being confronted by a couple of thugs while you are using an ATM. You must make that decision based on your training and experience.

I recommend the NRA Personal Protection Series to further your training and improve your skill level.

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Rockdiver Member

Rockdiver

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In my experience, if you are not acting in an official capacity you have no legal ROE to issue challenges or commands...

 

If you choose to do so, please remember this...

 

Verbal challenges are to be issued from the dominant party in an encounter. You can try to use a directed command to posture, but if you do not have a clear advantage and/or are not operating while posessing articles of lawful authority, you are setting yourself up for failure.

 

Have you ever seen someone issue coherent commands under life or death stress when they have not conditioned the verbage they wanted for deployment? Just like an emergency presentation during a startle response, if you have not reinforced that action with hundreds of repititions, you will get gibberish at best, and at worst say something that you will not want read to a jury...in a different inflection, 6 months down the line.

 

Catch G and bubba in your house at 0'dark 30 and their backs are to you or their hands are clear...its time to verbalize.

 

Put several rounds into bubba and now hes writhing like a fish on his belly and you cannot see his hands....find your voice.

 

In most other defensive situations, the mental processes involved WILL inhibit your reactive capability as cognitive function is quite different under stress....

 

This has its place in defensive scenarios, but it is a tool that can cut the ill prepared.

 

Rocco

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lostone1413 Member

lostone1413

Posted
Posted

 

As I read the post I was thing back.It was either Washington or Oregon that a couple years ago not a person with a CCW came upon an active shooter. He made the mistake of a verbal challenge The shooter turned and shot him If I remember right he is now in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. I myself believe we aren't the police we don't draw to arrest someone. When you as a citizen draw your gun you must feel your life is in danger. That verbal challenge might just give him the upper hand.

Tacoma Mall shooting.

Was not the command, it was the hesitation on the goodguy's part because the active murderer was "just a kid." The CCW holder couldn't press the trigger.

 

 

But the point is if he didn't give the command and hesitate he might not be in a wheelchair today

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Rockdiver Member

Rockdiver

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Posted

For those of you who would like to see this concept put into practice properly, Frank at Fortress Defense has what hands down the best verbal integration technique I have seen put into practice in civilian training. He has it refined to be part of a conditioned response and in complete honesty, when I mentioned that you would have to develop this skill as part of deployment, it was Frank's coursework in my mind's eye.

 

He is one of the few local instructors that I reccomend without hesitation.

 

Rocco

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Rockdiver Member

Rockdiver

Posted
Posted

 

 

As I read the post I was thing back.It was either Washington or Oregon that a couple years ago not a person with a CCW came upon an active shooter. He made the mistake of a verbal challenge The shooter turned and shot him If I remember right he is now in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. I myself believe we aren't the police we don't draw to arrest someone. When you as a citizen draw your gun you must feel your life is in danger. That verbal challenge might just give him the upper hand.

 

Tacoma Mall shooting.

Was not the command, it was the hesitation on the goodguy's part because the active murderer was "just a kid." The CCW holder couldn't press the trigger.

But the point is if he didn't give the command and hesitate he might not be in a wheelchair today

If, under those circumstances, the Concealed Carry holder had not responded with deadly force, he was not prepared to do so. Im sure there were quite a few questions going on in his mind...but they needed to be answered before he made his belt heavy.

 

It does not make him a bad person. It does not make him dumb. Those particular stars lined up that day to feed him a situation he was not prepared to respond to. In his case, his chosen response was a posturing failure.

 

People get their knickers in a twist about eldery, obviously pregnant, or youth targets used in Rapid Response.

 

This is why they are needed.

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Glock21 Member

Glock21

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Posted

 

 

As I read the post I was thing back.It was either Washington or Oregon that a couple years ago not a person with a CCW came upon an active shooter. He made the mistake of a verbal challenge The shooter turned and shot him If I remember right he is now in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. I myself believe we aren't the police we don't draw to arrest someone. When you as a citizen draw your gun you must feel your life is in danger. That verbal challenge might just give him the upper hand.

Tacoma Mall shooting.

Was not the command, it was the hesitation on the goodguy's part because the active murderer was "just a kid." The CCW holder couldn't press the trigger.

 

 

But the point is if he didn't give the command and hesitate he might not be in a wheelchair today

 

The point is that the command had nothing to do with it. He couldn't press the trigger on "a kid", command or no command.

I can't say his actions were right or wrong for him, as he's the one who has to live and almost died with them. What I can say is that his hesitation, according to his own words, was due to the age of the murderer, not because he wasted time issuing a command.

 

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DD123 Member

DD123

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I wouldn't issue a verbal command at all. You lose the element of surprise and since you're not a cop, the BG will probably not take you seriously until they see the gun in your hand, which would then quickly escalate the situation forcing you to make the decision to pull the trigger.

 

I like to use visualization techniques and put myself into the shoes of a BG. If some John Doe just walked up to me and told me to drop it, I'm aware that I'm probably going to go to jail and will do everything I can to take him out, ultimately counting on his indecision because if I'm a criminal degenerate, life means nothing to me so I won't hesitate.

 

If I'm ever in a situation where people are running in my direction, I'll more than likely just join them lol. I don't get paid to save lives. Now if there was nowhere to run, I'm going to find a nice concealed position, get a nice stable grip and sight picture, and lie in wait. Some people may call that an ambush but whatever. I'd rather an active shooter walk on by me without seeing me and then I put a few rounds in his back. Only a fool faces off like it's high noon because statistically speaking, the odds are much higher that you'll win in an ambush situation. Remember that most wild west shootings rarely if ever were duals. It was people bushwacking one another. I'm going to take every tactical advantage I can get especially in an active shooter situation.

 

Let's say that someone is robbing a store that you're in. The guy has a gun trained on the cashier. Am I going to do something? Probably not but I will keep my eyes on everything that's going on. If the BG decides that he's going to shoot the cashier, now I'm going to get involved because he/she is quite possibly going to kill everyone in there. No command, no nothing. Just a muzzle flash followed by another until the threat has ceased.

 

Guy walks up to you, pulls a gun and asks for your wallet. What do you do? I pull out my wallet, start shaking uncontrollably and accidentally drop it, or look over his shoulder, breath a sigh of relief, smile and say, cops are here or officer help he's got a gun. As soon as he turns to look, pull and fire. I just want to try to misdirect their attention long enough to draw and fire. Of course this is all innocent discussion because until it actually happens, you really don't know how you'd act.

 

This reminds me of that cop in the city who was being robbed by three honor students at the gas station. He calmly talked to them, pretended like he was digging his wallet out of his back pocket, and to the surprise of the BG with the gun, he came out with a gun of his own and turned the lights out on the BG. He dropped like a sack of manure.

 

I guess the issuing a command all depends on the exact situation you're in at the time. If a guy is slapping some lady around and starts choking her, that may be a good opportunity to issue a command especially if he's not armed. Of course I wouldn't do anything unless she's screaming for help.

 

If it's a guy with a knife, a bat, pipe, etc. I might issue a command, but if the guy has a gun, the command will be traveling at 1,250 FPS.

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Indigo Member

Indigo

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I think it depends on the individual situation.

An active shooter shouldn't even hear your gun shot

 

I think a verbal challenge is ok when there is some distance between you and your attacker. But that depends what their armed with. If they have a gun and you know they are gonna use it, there's no time to reason with them

For instance, 21 feet, armed with a knife? We all know how badly that can turn out.

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spec5 Member

spec5

Posted
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Stop Bang, Bang. Detengasse explosion, explosion, Stopp, Knall, Knall,

 

When issuing commands remember not everyone knows English in our great land.

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Tango7 Member

Tango7

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Posted

 

Tacoma Mall shooting.

Was not the command, it was the hesitation on the goodguy's part because the active murderer was "just a kid." The CCW holder couldn't press the trigger.

But the point is if he didn't give the command and hesitate he might not be in a wheelchair today

 

I thought you were referring to the Clackamas Mall Shooting where the CCW holder was going to take a shot but was worried about innocents in the background. Luckily the shooter saw him and offed himself.

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